What mechanics would you like to see in future Commander precon decks?

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

Krishnath wrote:
2 years ago
Please stop it with the "Homelands was bad" bull crap. It's painful to read and factually wrong.
This is a strange hill to die on. For one thing, nobody was really focusing on how bad it was. It's power level was barely even mentioned and you dumped several paragraphs trying to refute it, when it wasn't even the point of the post.

Anyway, guess I'll follow suit.

I wasn't playing that long ago, but the wiki concurs with what I've heard that Serrated Arrows was included in tournament decks at the time because wotc instituted a rule forcing players to use a certain number of cards from the set - not exactly a vote of confidence in the playability of the cards when they're being mandated. The wiki also implies that memory lapse wasn't really considered good until sometime later, though I have no idea how true that is. It's hard for me to say exactly what the power level of the set at the time was, but compared to cards in the sets surrounding it, it doesn't exactly look stellar to me.

For commander purposes, though, it's certainly among the least played sets, and that's a lot easier to verify. Looking at most-played cards on EDHrec, there are only 3 in the set that garner more than a rounded-down 0% usage, which is exceedingly low - the only real set I've found that beats that number is Arabian, but that's presumably because the cards are ludicrously expensive (pretty sure Old Man of the Sea would have more than 59 inclusions if he wasn't $600...). Fallen empires beats it in terms of "lowest usage % for the most-played card in the set" with High Tide vs Merchant Scroll, but it's also got a lot more 1%ers, and is also a famously weak set. To compare it to a more modern set that gets a lot of flack for being weak, Dragon's Maze, is a joke. I'm not going to bother counting how far the 1%+ cards go in dragon's maze, but it's gotta be at least 50 or so. Even if you compare the raw numbers, despite DGM having all multicolor cards, DGM is still crushing homelands. Mercadian masques, also famously weak, but also thrashes it. I mean, look at homelands' number 8 card - Truce. That's the 8th most popular card in the set, by use%. That is so embarrassing.

It's super weird to me to pull out something like Leeches when you're trying to find evidence of the set's power. Sure, it's unique, but so what? Nobody said the set wasn't unique, they said it wasn't powerful, and that's pretty objectively true. A 6/2 for 4? Again, so what? Hungry Mist is a terrible card. I assume you're talking about Dark Maze, which not only cost 5 mana for a 4/5 but could only attack ONCE. That's so unbelievably bad, again I don't understand why you'd bring it up to try to defend the power level of the set. Alliance had overpowered cards? My dude, EVERY set has overpowered cards compared to homelands.

That doesn't mean it's necessarily a bad set. I'm not going to say someone is wrong for loving homelands - if anything, I think that's great. Too many people are attracted to raw power in this game. If you wanna argue "homelands = good" because it has interesting design or flavor or whatever, be my guest. But that doesn't mean the cards in the set are powerful, because they just aren't. If you order all the sets by power level, homelands is going to end up pretty close to the bottom, and that's just a fact.
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Post by Krishnath » 2 years ago

Serrated Arrows was the most efficient way to deal with weenie decks, something control decks at the time struggled with. Once Tempest rolled around, the 26 counterspell monoblue control deck, used Aether Storm maindeck to slow down weenie decks to establish board control (I should know as I played it at the time and came in second at a 60+ people tournament with it, losing to a deck specifically tailored to beat the 26 counter deck). And Autumn Willow was specifically used in Ehrna-geddon decks because she was immune to point removal.

While we are at it, the 6/2 for 4 I mentioned? That was used in early Stompy builds until Stronghold came around with a 4/5 for 4 that was used because it was sturdier with less of a drawback.

The 5/5 for 6 with pro. white (Ihsan's Shade) was used as a finisher in Sui-black decks and mono-black/necropotence decks until Urza block rolled around.

Anything else you wish to know from someone who was actually active on the tournament scene at the time, or are you done?
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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

Krishnath wrote:
2 years ago
Anything else you wish to know from someone who was actually active on the tournament scene at the time, or are you done?
1) Being able to point to *some* cards being used in tournaments doesn't make the set strong. You can cherry pick cards from any set, especially when you're talking about...

2) LGS results are absolutely meaningless. In terms of the winning worlds decks, I see a grand total of 2 homelands cards, 2 serrated arrows from Tom Chanpheng's white weenie list...in the sideboard. Not exactly impressive. If you want to comb through ancient tournament results to prove me wrong, be my guest, but that's about as much effort as I'm interested in putting into it, because...

3) This is a commander forum and the year is 2021. Nobody cares that Hungry Mist used to be (allegedly) playable in 1995. In terms of the power level of cards in this format and this year, homelands has basically 2 relevant cards, and mostly just 1 if we're being honest, and that's a pretty abysmal track record.

Again, if you love homelands, that's great, but if you think it's a powerful set in comparison to basically any other set, you're deluding yourself. Honestly, what set do you think has fewer playable cards than homelands?
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Post by 3drinks » 2 years ago

Krishnath wrote:
2 years ago
Igzex wrote:
2 years ago
There was a time where I would agree that I'd love a return to Ulgrotha because as bad as homelands was, the plane itself was honestly kind of interesting.

But I also wished we came back to Kamigawa and what we got instead was Return to Daikatana so now I'm afraid of the WOTC monkey's paw...
Please stop it with the "Homelands was bad" bull crap. It's painful to read and factually wrong.

Memory Lapse and Merchant Scroll alone were strong cards at the time. I mean, a splashable two mana counterspell and a blue tutor is pretty good.
The set also had Serrated Arrows, which was a tournament staple in control deck as a source of colorless removal, and Autumn Willow that was in pretty much all Ehrna-geddon decks, not to mention Eron the Relentless, that was used as a finisher in early Sligh builds.

In addition to these tournament staples, the set had a 6/2 for 4, an enchantment that prevented people from playing creatures (which found its home in later control decks.), a 3/3 for 2, a 4/5 wall for 4 that could attack, an artifact that allowed you to drop a minotaur onto the battlefield at instant speed for 3 mana, a blue flyer with protection from red, a 5/5 black creature with protection from white for only six mana (which was really friggin good at the time), an artifact that made all creatures more expensive to cast, a black Propaganda, and Leeches, the only spell that can remove poison counters from yourself. And more besides.

The set wasn't bad, it suffered because it was released next to Alliances which had over powered cards, and because it was overprinted. But calling it bad is disingenuous.
People calling Homelands bad have never played with Fallen Empires. Outside of High Tide|FEM and Hymn to Tourach|FEM, the set contributed nothing except a stigma of the worst EV set of all time. At one point, a full set of FE could be had for $20...
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Post by RxPhantom » 2 years ago

I was around for Homelands and Fallen Empires, and I can safely say they were bad then and are bad now. Even the cards themselves came out of the pack in bad shape, like they had already been played and shuffled a few times.
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Post by Sporegorger_Dragon » 2 years ago

Future Commander precon decks?

I say the Transforming DFC deck, with a commander that triggers off cards transforming/entering the battlefield transformed.

I also wouldn't mind a 5-color token deck containing every single token in MtG's history.
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Post by Krishnath » 2 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
2 years ago
Krishnath wrote:
2 years ago
Anything else you wish to know from someone who was actually active on the tournament scene at the time, or are you done?
1) Being able to point to *some* cards being used in tournaments doesn't make the set strong. You can cherry pick cards from any set, especially when you're talking about...

2) LGS results are absolutely meaningless. In terms of the winning worlds decks, I see a grand total of 2 homelands cards, 2 serrated arrows from Tom Chanpheng's white weenie list...in the sideboard. Not exactly impressive. If you want to comb through ancient tournament results to prove me wrong, be my guest, but that's about as much effort as I'm interested in putting into it, because...

3) This is a commander forum and the year is 2021. Nobody cares that Hungry Mist used to be (allegedly) playable in 1995. In terms of the power level of cards in this format and this year, homelands has basically 2 relevant cards, and mostly just 1 if we're being honest, and that's a pretty abysmal track record.

Again, if you love homelands, that's great, but if you think it's a powerful set in comparison to basically any other set, you're deluding yourself. Honestly, what set do you think has fewer playable cards than homelands?
Well, if that is the criteria, then Alliances was a bad set, so was Ice Age, Mirage, Visions, Weatherlight, the entirety of Tempest block, and Invasion block. All of them were filled with bad cards.
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Post by Signe » 2 years ago

I'd love to see Dredge revisited, same with Phasing! I think both are neat mechanics but both, in my opinion, have aged ~weirdly~. Not bad, or good, jus tweird. I'd also enjoy seeing a Madness deck that actually wanted to use Madness, Asmoranomardicadaistinaculdacar honestly should have been the head of that deck.
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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

Krishnath wrote:
2 years ago
Well, if that is the criteria, then Alliances was a bad set, so was Ice Age, Mirage, Visions, Weatherlight, the entirety of Tempest block, and Invasion block. All of them were filled with bad cards.
Lol, what are you talking about?

Alliances has the most powerful commander of all time :cool: , plus two of the best commander counterspells printed to date.

Ice age has Mystic Remora, Fyndhorn Elves, freaking Brainstorm, freaking Nature's Lore, not to mention the painlands.

Mirage has Rampant Growth, one of the most played cards of all time, plus the tutor cycle and the diamond cycle, and LED for the cEDH crowd.

Visions had arguably the strongest tutor of all time, Natural Order, Necromancy, Quirion Ranger for those annoying elfball combo decks, Goblin Recruiter for those annoying goblinball combo decks.

Weatherlight has one of the most played mana rocks ever, Buried Alive, which is an incredible tutor in the decks that want it (which is apparently a lot of them), Aura of Silence is amazing, and Doomsday is one of the brokenest cards ever for the cEDH crowd.

Tempest has Ancient Tomb, which alone would make it 1000x more powerful than homelands, but then it's also got Harrow and Reanimate and Propaganda...and it's around this point that I'm realizing that this exercise is a ridiculous waste of time and you can't honestly think this is a good argument. All these sets are far, far more impactful than homelands and you know it.

The only set with remotely comparable commander impact is fallen empires, and even if I was to grant you that fallen empires is worse (which, tbh, I wouldn't - High Tide might be less played than Merchant Scroll, but at least where it's played it's a broken combo enabler that utterly warps the deck, not just a mediocre tutor)...that would still make homelands the second weakest set of all time. Are you seriously going to jump down someone's throat, and say "it's painful to read and factually wrong", because they offhandedly called the second worst set "bad"? That's worth a "well actually"?
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Post by Signe » 2 years ago

Man...I am a MASSIVE Homelands fan, but I wish it wasn't such a hotly debated set. Homelands deserved better than it got, but it wasn't better than it was. It suffers from being hyper-specific and insular, with or without some few staples.
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Post by Venedrex » 2 years ago

OK, yet another update:

After considerable internal debate, this is the next iteration of ideas, with brief summaries of my thought process.

Race to Victory Vehicles --- Ghost Rider? Flaming cars, Demon face commander, Aetherborn pilots, inspired on a couple cards.
Molecular Mastery Splice --- You know the idea. Mad science, jump-start, instants and sorceries of course, combining things, spell copying, and so on.
Noble Ambition Exalted --- Main theme is Midrange, but the stylistic theme would be glory, for lack of a better term. So sagas, grandeur, etc etc.
Primeval Impact (W.I.P. name) Evoke --- Main theme is big creatures, so evoke, monstrosity, maybe a little ferocious... delirium?

And that's just a small sample, so don't worry if something seems left out, there will be a lot of room for all kinds of individual one off ideas on the new cards in the precons.

Thoughts?
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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

Venedrex wrote:
2 years ago
Afterborn pilots
I really really

really really really

really

hope that was supposed to be "aetherborn".
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Post by Venedrex » 2 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
2 years ago
Venedrex wrote:
2 years ago
Afterborn pilots
I really really

really really really

really

hope that was supposed to be "aetherborn".
Yeah it was meant to be aetherborn. Stupid autocorrect.
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Post by Gashnaw » 2 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
2 years ago
Gashnaw wrote:
2 years ago
Eminence. We only have 4 (6 if you count an illegal card and oloro)
Ew.
Otherwise i want to go back to 2011 when they.were balanced and fair.
Tbh the precons were never all that fair. Animar, Edric...hell ghave is still a combo machine. The precons were a huge power spike and they are still plenty powerful (the commanders - the decks unmodified are trash lmao). And they weren't remotely balanced.
Maybe, but they were better than Derevi.

And the only reason i want eminence is due to two of them being overpowered, one truly helping dragon tribal, and one is on par. They were however tied to tribal decks, I would rather ones more like Oloro, in which they have a broader use. Maybe smething like "You may use mana as though it were mana of any color to cast non-creature spells" Granted you may focus on a spellslinger deck with this, but it could also be a way to keep counterspells up.

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Post by Legend » 2 years ago

Venedrex wrote:
2 years ago
OK, yet another update:

After considerable internal debate, this is the next iteration of ideas, with brief summaries of my thought process.

Race to Victory Vehicles --- Ghost Rider? Flaming cars, Demon face commander, Aetherborn pilots, inspired on a couple cards.
Molecular Mastery Splice --- You know the idea. Mad science, jump-start, instants and sorceries of course, combining things, spell copying, and so on.
Noble Ambition Exalted --- Main theme is Midrange, but the stylistic theme would be glory, for lack of a better term. So sagas, grandeur, etc etc.
Primeval Impact (W.I.P. name) Evoke --- Main theme is big creatures, so evoke, monstrosity, maybe a little ferocious... delirium?

And that's just a small sample, so don't worry if something seems left out, there will be a lot of room for all kinds of individual one off ideas on the new cards in the precons.

Thoughts?
I really like those ideas.

Pitiless Plunder - Playing Prosper, Tome-Bound lately makes me wish there were a UBR commander with a "pilfering" theme. Bribery, Praetor's Grasp, You Find Some Prisoners, and the like. The commander could have an effect that checks for permanents you control but don't own, mirroring Zedruu the Greathearted. And/or an ability that nullifies Homeward Path.
“Comboing in Commander is like dunking on a seven foot hoop.” – Dana Roach

“Making a deck that other people want to play against – that’s Commander.” – Gavin Duggan

"I want my brain to win games, not my cards." – Sheldon Menery

kirkusjones
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Post by kirkusjones » 2 years ago

D R E D G E. But maybe in BW? Or Esper?

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Serenade
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Post by Serenade » 2 years ago

I would love to see high synergy between some weaker mechanics. They don't need to be the focus of any deck; I just like the nostalgia from older mechanics.

Surveil/dredge/jump-start!
Exploit/evoke/morbid!
Cascade/surge!
Renown/explore/fabricate/persist?
Convoke/crew/inspired?
Mirri, Cat Warrior counts as a Cat Warrior.

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Signe
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Post by Signe » 2 years ago

I really want to see Prowess and Magecraft get more love, and I am a MASSIVE fan of vehicles so more of those tbh
Just getting set up, bear with me!
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Venedrex
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Post by Venedrex » 2 years ago

OK, back again, this time requesting a favor. Right now I'm staring at the Vehicles face commander, and I'm bashing my head against the wall trying to figure out a combination of effects that would make for a fun commander that is powerful, but not too strong.

My first thought was to give Vehicles haste and menace, for flavor and aggro purposes. Then I figured card advantage becomes an issue, so I mulled around "Whenever a Vehicle you control attacks exile the top card of your library. Until end of turn, you may play that card." Specifically not being until the end of your next turn for balancing. Another idea was to give players their choice of one of three keywords at the beginning of combat. I thought about having him give double strike to attacking vehicles as well.

Here is a sample of what I have so far. Please don't be too harsh, it is very much a WIP, so balance is all over the place for now.


Ilkonar, Blazing Driver
Legendary Creature — Demon Pilot (M)
Vehicles you control get +2/+2 and have haste and menace.
Whenever a Vehicle you control attacks, exile the top card of your library. Until end of turn, you may play that card.
5/3
Epicurean, EDH without Universes Beyond.

http://nxs.wf/np748831

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