SCD: Primeval Titan

[pokken]

I...hate that I'm making this thread because boy did I hate on primetime a lot in abstract. It got banned right as I started and I watched a lot of people Phantasmal Image and Bribery it in just a few games, and then everyone taking it out of their decks. The only time I ever played against it was someone who didn't get the memo it was banned and had to take it out mid game :D

But I've played against it in Modern and man does it do dumb stuff. It's an insanely powerful card.

Buuuuuut.

The benchmark for game ending bomb is now 6-7 mana (yeah wtf Old Gnawbone). I think we should have a serious discussion about Primeval Titan.

(tangent: I *emphatically do not* think we should have a discussion about Sylvan Primordial because there is a massive difference between putting yourself ahead and putting everyone else behind. These cards are not even similar, much less paired.)

I can make a list of dumb game ending bombs, many of which are in the command zone, that have far more impact than Prime Time but I don't probably need to do it for ya :D

I do think Prime time would see *tons* of play and it'd be a powerhouse in mid-high powered games, but my main line of thinking is whether it's bad enough to detract from the format or not -- and if it maybe adds some fun to some types of decks? I am unsure. I know I'd enjoy it because it lines up well with my type of nonsense (getting Field of the Dead and Thespian's Stage then Vesuva and Simic Growth Chamber, don't mind if I do).

So what do we think?

[ISBPathfinder]

I don't think that unbanning primeval titan would make a dent on high end commander play. This is me not just talking cEDH but also those tuned power level 7-8 decks. I do think it would have an impact on the lower tiered stuff but so can a lot of other cards that are allowed to exist. The fast tuned stuff in magic these days usually ends up being synergy plays using fast mana and card draw to blow the game up quickly which isn't so much of ramp to a six drop that is just a value / ramp play.

When he left commander we were at the peak of clones / reanimation / ETB value creature focused commander. We have since then gone away from a lot of the enabler mechanics being rez and clones and some of that is the decrease in high powered ETB value cards but a lot of it is also that we removed commander legend clone kills and commander tuck which has enabled more strategies other than value generation and opened us up to a lot of strategies due to the consistency of commanders in play. I just don't see the meta looking anything like it was when he left which alone might be reason to allow him back in.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

I think the worst possible outcome is the return of GBx dominancein mid-lower metas. Back in the day, the best primetime play used to be to get Coffers and Urborg for an instant and near insurmountable mana advantage. Not sure if it's worse than Dockside abuse but I think we'd all agree Dockside abuse isn't a good thing and this isn't far off.

[Mookie]

My analysis a while ago of Primeval Titan put it at 'unlikely to be unbanned'. My analysis of banworthiness is generally based on two criteria: 'would this card see play?' and 'how impactful is this card when it is played?'

To answer the first question: yes, Primeval Titan would see play... and a lot of it. It doesn't require any particular deckbuilding, and I think it can be trivially slotted into pretty much any existing green deck. If it were unbanned, I would expect to see it in a very large percentage of games... and that is before considering the possibility that people add additional tutors to fetch it up (which green is very good at doing).

To answer the second question: yes, Primeval Titan would be an impactful card. It was a powerful card when it was banned, and it has only gotten stronger over time as even more powerful lands have been printed. Field of the Dead, Thespian's Stage, Urza's Saga... and that is before considering classic options like Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth + Cabal Coffers. The format has gotten faster, yes, but Primeval Titan triggers have also gotten better over time.

Of course, strong tutor targets alone aren't a reason to ban a card - otherwise Demonic Tutor would be gone. However, lands are a notoriously difficult card type to interact with. I've seen plenty of games dominated by Field of the Dead and Glacial Chasm, and I would expect that to be even more common if Primeval Titan were unbanned. This, in turn, means people would need to run more land destruction in their decks to answer these problematic lands. However, Primeval Titan fetches up two lands at a time, which means a single Strip Mine would be insufficient. In addition, land destruction alone isn't enough - there are also a ton of ways to recur lands, most of which were printed after Primeval Titan's banning. I'll call out Echoing Deeps in particular as a fetchable option, but we also have Aftermath Analyst, Wrenn and Six, among other options. This means that Primeval Titan also pushes people to run more graveyard hate.

Overall, I think unbanning Primeval Titan would be bad for the format. It would see a lot of play, and it would put a lot of pressure on deckbuilding because it is a challenging card to profitably interact with. Its presence in the format would mean people need to run significantly more land destruction and grave hate in their decks to deal with utility lands... and that's before considering Primeval Titan's ability to snowball its controller into absurd amounts of mana if left unchecked. I'm okay with unbanning cards that I don't expect to see play, and I'm okay with unbanning cards that are victims of power creep... but Primeval Titan is neither.

[duducrash]

I think that in a healthy commander format, primetime should be right. The thing is we are not in a healhty format, we are off of the deep end or whatever that saying is. He is too powerfull for a healthy format, but so are many cards coming out

[DirkGently]

Honestly MH3 looks like it's going to be a nuclear bomb for the format, so idk if I can make a judgment about the ban list until things shake out a bit.

Personally I wanna see Nadu, Winged Wisdom set a new record for fast bans. Gonna be hard to top Lutri, the Spellchaser but I think he can do it!

[gsgfdf]

I am confident that Primeval Titan would be safe to unban right now. It would see a lot of play but I don't think it will unbalance the format like before.
There are better targets for Bribery or random reanimation nowadays. The first target for that play is Etali, Primal Conqueror // Etali, Primal Sickness at the moment.

[illakunsaa]

I think prime time is pretty tame. There are bunch of land tutors in the format and almost nobody plays them outside of dedicated land decks.

[pokken]

I think prime time is pretty tame. There are bunch of land tutors in the format and almost nobody plays them outside of dedicated land decks.

yeh, the more I think about it I think it's kind of a laughable ban. 6-7 mana cards are winning the game now, not making two tapped lands. I do think it would see a lot of play and I would personally play it in a deck for sure. But just talkin' power level, it's fairly laughable in the face of the mana production we get from creatures nowadays.

[Avacyn Believer]

Maybe if it was basic lands and not any lands. Yeah sure if you are playing this Titan you'd have fun, but how much is it to watch Simic decks go crazy with lands drops. This effect all too easy to abuse. Don't think there is a good reason to unban it.

[pokken]

Maybe if it was basic lands and not any lands. Yeah sure if you are playing this Titan you'd have fun, but how much is it to watch Simic decks go crazy with lands drops. This effect all too easy to abuse. Don't think there is a good reason to unban it.

Do you think a prime time unban materially impacts current UGx decks? My read on it is that there's a very modest incremental power increase at best and that at the highest power levels it would not be played (being worse than better cheaper cards).

Not just cedh either where it's outclassed at its mana cost.

[Avacyn Believer]

Well, I suppose the best way to find out is to ask your group to put Titan into their decks, have some games and then talk about how everyone feels.