Phelddagrif: Show Weakness to Hide Your Strength

[Dunadain]

Idk, I think Cyber Conversion is pretty sweet.

[TheGildedGoose]

Idk, I think Cyber Conversion is pretty sweet.

Will you win more games because of flipping commanders or lose more because of a more restrictive cost? There's a handful of commanders that really need to be neutralized but by and large neutralizing commanders is gravy to me, not a selling point. I certainly wouldn't fault someone for running this over any other high tier removal spell since the difference is probably negligible, but for an academic position, I stand by my original position.

[Dunadain]

@TheGildedGoose

It depends on the deck, but specifically in phelddagrif I'm pretty sure it will win me a fair number of games.

Besides, neutralizing commanders isn't the only thing going for it, it also gets around indestructible and death triggers.

The amount of versatility is very impressive for a 2mv removal spell.

[Hawk]

Yeah I acted cool on it, but "the 10th best single target removal spell available to us" still probably makes the cut in most lists since we want so many. Other Esper or Grixis control decks likely skip this given the wealth of removal they can run and their target being 7-12 removal spells, but we want to run 15+. I actually like it better than Fateful Absence for instance now that I've thought about it, since it still beats indestructible, death triggers, and can temporarily hose a problematic commander.

[DirkGently]

Cyber Conversion - as a neutralization effect, it's similar to Mystic Subdual - same cost, removes abilities - but it's a lot stronger. Overall I think it's pretty strong as a tool in the toolbox, but not something I would rely on for long-term neutralization since one sac outlet or chump block puts the commander back into rotation. I will almost always choose the higher-powered, more-restrictive CC compared to Reality Shift - being a cheap way to neutralize a commander at least short-term makes it really strong as a proactive answer to someone chucking down, say, Chulane, Teller of Tales or Niv-Mizzet, Parun or some other "this is almost certainly going to be a problem, but I don't want to declare total war right out of the gate with a Imprisoned in the Moon" type of commander. It's also nice that, unlike other forms of aura-based neutralization, it doesn't give them reason to kill us since it won't un-flip their commander.

So yeah, honestly I think it's quite good. I'd run it.

Everybody lives (%$#%$#% I hated that episode), I'm a bit less hot on...it's still decent, but whether we want fogs at all is still open to debate. I also think I'd prefer to have an asymmetric fog on average. 2 mv splits the difference between cheaper options that don't stop as many things, and teferi's that stops almost everything. It's in the mix, but most of the text is pretty irrelevant (we don't care about creatures and player hexproof is rarely relevant), so it's mostly just a fog that stops alt wincons for an extra mana. I'd say if you expect to run into thoracle a decent amount, sure, but otherwise probably not?

I concur with what @Dunadain and @TheGildedGoose said about FotD and Shadowspear. I wouldn't mind taking some of the emphasis off pulse of the fields for lifegain, but I think the Shire or similar is probably the better place for that sort of thing.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

Decklist

DecklistCMCManaPricesChartsDraw 7

General

1 Phelddagrif

Counters (12)

1 Stifle

1 Stubborn Denial

1 An Offer You Can't Refuse

1 Swan Song

1 Dovin's Veto

1 Permission Denied

1 Arcane Denial

1 Counterspell

1 Disallow

1 Voidslime

1 Render Silent

1 Cryptic Command

Removal (18)

1 Rapid Hybridization

1 Nature's Claim

1 Chain of Vapor

1 Path to Exile

1 Swords to Plowshares

1 Pongify

1 Into the Roil

1 Blink of an Eye

1 Cyber Conversion

1 Get Lost

1 Unexpectedly Absent

1 Excise the Imperfect

1 Endless Detour

1 Stroke of Midnight

1 Oblation

1 Generous Gift

1 Beast Within

1 Commit//Memory

Wraths (8)

1 Cyclonic Rift

1 Supreme Verdict

1 Wrath of God

1 Rout

1 Evacuation

1 Hour of Revelation

1 Farewell

1 Devastating Mastery

Tutors (7)

1 Crop Rotation

1 Personal Tutor

1 Mystical Tutor

1 Merchant Scroll

1 Muddle The Mixture

1 Wargate

1 Intuition

Value (7)

1 Exploration

1 Telepathy

1 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Life from the Loam

1 Pulse of the Grid

1 Pulse of the Fields

1 Inspiring Refrain

Fogs (2)

1 Moment's Peace

1 Comeuppance

Lands (45)

2 Plains

2 Island

1 Forest

1 Breeding Pool

1 Hallowed Fountain

1 Temple Garden

1 Canopy Vista

1 Prairie Stream

1 Tangled Islet

1 Rimewood Falls

1 Idyllic Beachfront

1 Glacial Floodplain

1 Mystic Sanctuary

1 Scattered Groves

1 Irrigated Farmland

1 Spara's Headquarters

1 Scalding Tarn

1 Misty Rainforest

1 Windswept Heath

1 Flooded Strand

1 Verdant Catacombs

1 Polluted Delta

1 Arid Mesa

1 Wooded Foothills

1 Marsh Flats

1 Prismatic Vista

1 Forbidden Orchard

1 Command Tower

1 Azorius Chancery

1 Strip Mine

1 Arcane Lighthouse

1 Scavenger Grounds

1 Desert of the Mindful

1 Desert of the True

1 Desert of the Indomitable

1 Maze of Ith

1 Alchemist's Refuge

1 Kor Haven

1 Arch of Orazca

1 Bonder's Enclave

1 Eiganjo, Seat of the Empire

1 Boseiju, Who Endures

1 Otawara, Soaring City

Approximate Total Cost:

So I scraped this back together just for funsies. I upped the land count a touch and added more tutors, but it spins like a top in testing. Obviously missing a lot of fancy cards rn due to trading, but I like where this list currently sits.

[DirkGently]

Get Lost looks like another viable removal option. Not the most thrilling thing to optimize but it's there. Fateful Absence was already borderline and this adds another targeting option, and I think two map tokens are probably a decent bit worse than a clue most of the time. I don't really care about the +1/+1 counters so it's mostly just a way to maybe draw a land or surveil a card to the grave. Sorcery speed activation also makes them crappier.

[Dunadain]

In case any one's wondering, Hall of Heliod's Generosity has been fantastic. My new default intuition package (assuming I have at least one fetch land or cycler available) is Life from the Loam + Hall of Heliod's Generosity + Exploration.

Only played three games with it though, still, it earned it's keep in all three.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

Get Lost looks like another viable removal option. Not the most thrilling thing to optimize but it's there. Fateful Absence was already borderline and this adds another targeting option, and I think two map tokens are probably a decent bit worse than a clue most of the time. I don't really care about the +1/+1 counters so it's mostly just a way to maybe draw a land or surveil a card to the grave. Sorcery speed activation also makes them crappier.

I'm not sold. For one more mana we can get answers to damn near everything, and for one less, we get a lot more efficiency. I wouldn't fault anyone for running it above stuff like Reality Shift but it's not exactly top-of-the-line either.

[TheGildedGoose]

Get Lost looks like another viable removal option. Not the most thrilling thing to optimize but it's there. Fateful Absence was already borderline and this adds another targeting option, and I think two map tokens are probably a decent bit worse than a clue most of the time. I don't really care about the +1/+1 counters so it's mostly just a way to maybe draw a land or surveil a card to the grave. Sorcery speed activation also makes them crappier.

I'm not sold. For one more mana we can get answers to damn near everything, and for one less, we get a lot more efficiency. I wouldn't fault anyone for running it above stuff like Reality Shift but it's not exactly top-of-the-line either.

I like Get Lost a lot, actually. Map tokens seem pretty mediocre, especially since they rely on having a creature in play, so missing artifacts and lands for one mana less seems pretty solid to me. Certainly it's not Stroke of Midnight or Swords to Plowshares but it's solid A-tier removal.

EDIT: Maybe it's the exhaustion of my day plus my herbal enhancement but I just got Big Sad about Get Lost and power creep. If they print a very similar card 2-4 years in the future that hits artifacts and a bunch of other targets for two mana, there's a decent chance Beast Within gets replaced here. I hate this game.

[DirkGently]

I like Get Lost a lot, actually.

I hate this game.

Interesting juxtaposition xD

Putting in on a continuum between Pongify and Beast Within does seem like the fairest comparison. In terms of downsides, I think the two maps tokens are pretty on-par with a 3/3 tbh - CA is obviously more relevant than a vanilla creature usually, but considering it can't draw nonlands it seems like a very weak form of CA. Killing a creature vs killing creature, artifact, enchantment, planeswalker, land, or battle...I'd rather have had artifact than enchantment, but lands are rarely worth removing and battles are basically never worth removing, so I think Get Lost is slightly above the midpoint in terms of value on those fronts.

Obviously we're splitting hairs in terms of quality of removal at this point but I think it makes the cut.

Personally, while there are many cards that make me frustrated with power creep, efficient removal with a downside is never one of them.

my herbal enhancement

Lol, for a minute there I was thinking you were one of those essential oils nutters xD

[Hawk]

Pretty good set for us overall. As discussed I'm pretty high on Get Lost - Absence is a bit borderline but this is much stronger hitting enchantments and giving back a much, much weaker resource in maps versus a clue.

Also no discussion yet on Confounding Riddle? Supreme Will has been a decent spell and this is literally strictly better. It's weird but to me the difference between 3 and 4 is quite large and makes this a reliable counter even in the mid-late game. Players are primed to hold up 2 or 3 for a Mystic Confluence/Mana Leak/Spell Pierce, but 4 is a big ask outside of our final shoot-outs. Heck, not only that but arguably the cards going to the 'yard for the impluse mode is better too especially for Loam enjoyers.

I don't consider it necessarily sad but it is strange that even 2 years ago, the "best" spells in this deck would likely look very different. I don't think they'll ever powercreep our true best-in-slot spells (Swords to Plowshares for spot removal, Mana Drain and Arcane Denial for counters, and Supreme Verdict and Cyclonic Rift for sweepers) but we've got some very strong stuff.

[TheGildedGoose]

Permission Denied

Another Azorius Negate. Is it as good as Dovin's Veto? No. Is it still a 2mv counterspell? Yes.

[DirkGently]

It's interesting…I don't think it quite makes the cut for me? It's close though. The silence clause is pretty narrow though.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

It's been a...long while since I actually updated my Phelddagrif list, though I have been accumulating some cards that ought to fit into it. Definitely noticing some rust on the hinges. Since there aren't many commanders that really excite me in WOE, I'll hopefully have a little time to do a proper overhaul of the deck and reassess a few things while I'm at it.

Hey is this update coming or did we already miss the window with the encroachment of Ixalan? I am still super hype to see what your build looks like these days!

[DirkGently]

Ixalan update:

Get Lost - as mentioned, I think this one is pretty solid.

Confounding Riddle - not really my thing, but it's not bad.

Sunken Citadel - Doubt I'd run it, but it's decent - we have a lot of activated land abilities, and an evolving wilds-tier fixer isn't soooo bad.

Eaten by Piranhas - another solid removal spell - this almost slipped under the radar for me. It's worse than Cyber Conversion since it's weak to enchantment removal, but the addition of flash makes this far more compelling than other versions of the effect. I could definitely see a bit of a pivot for the deck from a "we have 1-2 tools to permanently remove a problem commander" towards "we have a lot of otherwise middling removal spells that are pretty effective at stopping a problem commander for a period of time". Not to say we should completely cut the more permanent options, but I think these cards offer a good middle-ground for when someone sits down with a very threatening commander that you want to keep in check, but don't want to remove them from the game forever in case the tides turn. Thoughts?

Hey is this update coming or did we already miss the window with the encroachment of Ixalan? I am still super hype to see what your build looks like these days!

Yeah, sorry, the Dr Who stuff came out and now Ixalan and it's occupied most of my magic time. WotC never gives us a break =/

Right now I'm taking it a bit easier on Magic since Lily rediscovered Diablo 3 and it made me want to play. Hopefully I'll have time to come back to Phelddagrif (the more I think about it, the more I like Cyber Conversion) but right now I've got other stuff going on.

[ReadyDaniel]

@DirkGently Created an account to say thank you. Made a version of this deck about 6 months ago. It is my favorite deck for many of the reasons you mentioned in the primer. Everytime I have gotten to the 1v1 I have won and every time I've lost it has been my fault or varience. It's so much fun!

[NestordeSinope]

Hi guys. Hippo new year !
Almost two years after building my own Phelddgrif deck - thanks to you, and all your tips and cons - I finally bought my Intuition. I used to play few tutors before (Muddle the Mixture, Tolaria West, Wargate, Mystical Tutor, Crop Rotation, Solve the Equation and Merchant Scroll) but I obviously want to make some space for the new one.
The thing is : I really don't know what to cut. I hesitate between Solve and Mechant Scroll. In my mind, even if Solve the Equation is a bit more expensive, it can hit sorceries and non-blue instants so it's much more versatile and better than Merchant Scroll.
Also, hitting a blue instant is always oppressive for our opponents (most of the time, it's a a counterspell, but it can be a Cyclonic Rift) when with Solve the Equation we can get a Life from the Loam or Pulse of the Fields.
BUT, when I see your lists, you guys perfer (by far) the scroll. Do I miss something ?

Thanks for your help (again!).

[DirkGently]

@ReadyDaniel very nice to hear, thank you!

@NestordeSinope Personally I prefer merchant scroll because I think it can get relevant targets for the things I want to be able to do, while costing less. It can hit a counter, a wipe, targeted removal or a value engine, and it costs 2 instead of 3. When searching for loam I typically prefer to search up intuition with scroll so I can get land support alongside my loam, so StE doesn't really have an advantage there imo. It is better for searching up pulse of the fields, but you can scroll into mystical tutor to get pulse if it's really important. Not an exciting answer but that's basically it.

My philosophy around the deck is that I prefer to tune it to be anti-cEDH tech, so even though StE is superior in a slower meta, I prioritize a low curve to maximize effectiveness against high-powered decks, and lean on tight play to make up the gap when playing against slower ones.

But I'm not running all the 1mv counterspells so I'm not all-in on anti-cEDH. Matter of preference for where you want to balance power vs efficiency. If your meta is slower and you aren't concerned about encountering faster decks, then StE is a fine choice.

[NestordeSinope]

Thanks for your answer !
Make very much sense. I'll try Merchant Scroll before Solve the Equation then.

Here's my actual list.

Hippopolitics

DecklistCMCManaPricesChartsDraw 7

Commander

1 Phelddagrif

Boardwipes (8)

1 Cyclonic Rift

1 Devastating Mastery

1 Evacuation

1 Farewell

1 Hour of Revelation

1 Out of Time

1 Rout

1 Supreme Verdict

Counterspells (12)

1 An Offer You Can't Refuse

1 Arcane Denial

1 Counterspell

1 Cryptic Command

1 Delay

1 Disallow

1 Dovin's Veto

1 Mana Drain

1 Render Silent

1 Stubborn Denial

1 Swan Song

1 Voidslime

Spot Removals (17)

1 Beast Within

1 Blink of an Eye

1 Commit/Memory

1 Cyber Conversion

1 Endless Detour

1 Excise the Imperfect

1 Generous Gift

1 Get Lost

1 Immovable Rod

1 Into the Roil

1 Path to Exile

1 Pongify

1 Rapid Hybridization

1 Song of the Dryads

1 Stroke of Midnight

1 Swords to Plowshares

1 Unexpectedly Absent

Fogs (3)

1 Comeuppance

1 Moment's Peace

1 Teferi's Protection

Tutors (6)

1 Crop Rotation

1 Intuition

1 Merchant Scroll

1 Muddle the Mixture

1 Mystical Tutor

1 Wargate

Value (9)

1 Bala Ged Recovery

1 Brainstorm

1 Exploration

1 Inspiring Refrain

1 Life from the Loam

1 Pulse of the Fields

1 Pulse of the Grid

1 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Sylvan Library

Lands (44)

1 Alchemist's Refuge

1 Arcane Lighthouse

1 Arid Mesa

1 Bonders' Enclave

1 Boseiju, Who Endures

1 Breeding Pool

1 Canopy Vista

1 Command Tower

1 Desert of the Indomitable

1 Desert of the Mindful

1 Desert of the True

1 Flooded Strand

1 Forbidden Orchard

1 Forest

1 Hall of Heliod's Generosity

1 Hallowed Fountain

1 Irrigated Farmland

2 Island

1 Kor Haven

1 Marsh Flats

1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge

1 Misty Rainforest

1 Mystic Sanctuary

1 Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers

1 Otawara, Soaring City

2 Plains

1 Polluted Delta

1 Prairie Stream

1 Prismatic Vista

1 Reflecting Pool

1 Scalding Tarn

1 Scattered Groves

1 Scavenger Grounds

1 Spara's Headquarters

1 Strip Mine

1 Temple Garden

1 The Shire

1 Tyrite Sanctum

1 Verdant Catacombs

1 Windswept Heath

1 Wooded Foothills

1 Yavimaya, Cradle of Growth

Approximate Total Cost:

As @Dunadain suggested it, I'll also try Hall of Heliod's Generosity. The card seems pretty good with Intuition.

The last changes was :
- Mirage Mirror (out) → Get Lost (in). Mirage Mirror is one of my favorite carte of all time, didn't want to cut it but it was on the watching list since months now. Get Lost is just too strong, needed some space.
- Solve the Equation (out) → Intuition (in). As we said before.
- Gitaxian Probe (out) → Blink of an Eye (in). Exactly like Mirage Mirror, I love the Probe, but cutting Blink of an Eye at the very beggining was a bad idea. Welcome back !
- Arch of Orazca (out) → Hall of Heliod's Generosity (in). I know that most of us have Orazca in the heart. But I never find the right use of the card. I always prefer to find Bonders' Enclave because the ability is cheaper. In my meta, Phelddagrif can spend a lot of time on board, I generally don't have any issue to activate the capacity of Bonder's Enclave and, most of the time, Arch of Orazca is just a colorless land for me. Then, cut. If I regret, I'll let you know!

That's it. I'm very happy to share my list, I read you since so much time

[Dunadain]

Assuming we get a Library/Dining Room card for each color pair, that's 3 more CA engine lands for us in one set, which is kind of crazy considering we have like 2-3 right now depending on what you consider good enough. Honestly, this might be the point where you can just cut all your Whispers of the Muse/Pulse of the Grid/Life from the Loam and rely exclusively on your lands for CA.

Personally, I think these are pretty solid, sure, it costs 7 total mana to draw a card, one more than Arch of Orazca, but that's ignoring that these lands are also fixing lands and that the mana can be split up.

I actually think the ability to split up the mana is pretty sweet, it's not too uncommon that I'll find myself sitting around with 7 cards in hand and nothing to do, I could activate Bonders' Enclave/Arch of Orazca, but I'm limited by my hand size (this is actually why I've been enjoying The Shire), then I'll cast a couple spells (usually a piece of removal/boardwipe + a counterspell or two to push it through) then suddenly I want to draw as fast as possible and mana is the limiting factor. With these lands, you can stock up a couple clues (even 2 clues is a pretty comfortable stash) then crack them for super cheap when you do need that draw.

probably still worse than Bonders' Enclave, but I think they are head and shoulders above Arch of Orazca.

[DirkGently]

@Dunadain interesting, and fair points. I think overall I probably prefer a colorless land to an etbt fixer, but you don't want too many of either type so it depends on which other lands are being used.

I do think loam will stay in my deck forever, but I do think lands are a pretty ideal spot for value generation in the deck since they're so low-profile and keep spots open for answers.

[DirkGently]

Damn, Archdruid's Charm is a hell of a lot better than Archmage's Charm. All three modes are excellent. I guess it wouldn't really be that exciting without the first mode, but tutor any land that can also be removal is excellent.

Hope y'all have a full set of fetches to fix that mana cost though, lmao.

[NestordeSinope]

These lands are very good. And what do we thing about the new fetchable ones ? Hedge Maze, Lush Portico and Meticulous Archive. Less good than shocklands and cyclinglands but still better Slow lands in my book.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

These lands are very good. And what do we thing about the new fetchable ones ? Hedge Maze, Lush Portico and Meticulous Archive. Less good than shocklands and cyclinglands but still better Slow lands in my book.

I think the surveil lands are quite good. They give instant speed card selection with fetches and passively support the loam engine. I'm currently running all the blue common duals and these will push them out without any meaningful damage to the fixing.