Phelddagrif: Show Weakness to Hide Your Strength

[DirkGently]

I actually cut Life from the Loam for a few reasons, not the least of which was because of information leakage. When you flop over Devastating Mastery, Mana Drain, and Merchant Scroll the cat is kind of out of the bag.

I guess it depends on what context you're playing in, but I usually don't try to play the deck in an effort to trick people into thinking it's something it's not. Yes, I'm playing a control deck. Nobody should be surprised to see a board wipe and a counterspell.

Shigeki seems like a strong way to transition to 1v1, but I don't like cards that only really function as wincons. I guess you can hold fire on getting the second part of the loop, whatever that may be? That maybe mitigates the threat level? But I still think most things you return to your hand will be baited out significantly more than answers that were hidden information. Someone knows you have a counterspell or a board wipe, they'll often want to pull it out asap so they aren't worried about future disruption.

[TheGildedGoose]

I guess it depends on what context you're playing in, but I usually don't try to play the deck in an effort to trick people into thinking it's something it's not. Yes, I'm playing a control deck. Nobody should be surprised to see a board wipe and a counterspell.

The line between deception and politics is pretty slim, right? I don't actively advertise that I'm a control deck, but if someone asks, that's my reply. If someone flips Supreme Verdict, sure, fine. Devastating Mastery goes pretty deep and will immediately have my attention. People finding out the nature of the deck from me playing spells organically is a lot different than having Loam show my deck off.

Mostly though, Loam is so dang mana hungry. I know you don't have to do it every turn, obviously, but I've found Crucibles to be effective enough without the repeated mana investment. If my main reason for playing the card is to generate card advantage in a subtle way, just hitting land drops without being offensive is powerful enough.

Shigeki seems like a strong way to transition to 1v1, but I don't like cards that only really function as wincons. I guess you can hold fire on getting the second part of the loop, whatever that may be? That maybe mitigates the threat level? But I still think most things you return to your hand will be baited out significantly more than answers that were hidden information. Someone knows you have a counterspell or a board wipe, they'll often want to pull it out asap so they aren't worried about future disruption.

I think you greatly overestimate the average competency of EDH players to baiting and playing around interaction. Tying into my above point, keeping information to yourself in the form of what's in your hand is clearly important, but an answer in hand is still an answer in hand, which I think is stronger than a roll of the dice.

I disagree that Shegeki (and, by extension, Seasons Past) is only good in the transition to and in the endgame. One of the worst places to be is in a 1v1v1, which happens somewhat frequently if someone gets knocked out early or has to scoop. In those situations managing your threat profile and balancing the scales becomes significantly more difficult, and sometimes, you need the ability to reload on answers sooner rather than later.

The difference is pretty marginal, though. The core of the deck - answers - is the same. These kinds of recursion cards are pet cards of mine and I try to jam them in everything, only to cut them later, because of being winmore or too clumsy. They really only work in slow control decks, so smoke 'em if you got 'em.

[Dunadain]

I think you greatly overestimate the average competency of EDH players to baiting and playing around interaction.

I agree that the average EDH player isn't all that good at MTG (it's all on a spectrum of course, just understanding how to curve out efficiently makes you better than a complete neophyte). But why would I optimize my deck under the assumption that my opponents will always be bad? It's much preferable, in my eyes, to assume my opponents are good at magic, so I'm ready when they are, and simply take the free wins when they are not. Optimizing my deck to win games I was probably already winning is like putting anti-burn spells in your life-gain deck. Sure, it might win you the occasional game, but usually it'll ensure you win games that you were already going to win, while costing you games you might have won if you included better cards.

[DirkGently]

The line between deception and politics is pretty slim, right? I don't actively advertise that I'm a control deck, but if someone asks, that's my reply. If someone flips Supreme Verdict, sure, fine. Devastating Mastery goes pretty deep and will immediately have my attention. People finding out the nature of the deck from me playing spells organically is a lot different than having Loam show my deck off.

I tend to assume a context that my deck is known information. Of course where you're playing will determine how true that is. With my friends, it's true. At an LGS I play at regularly, it's sorta true. At an LGS I've never been to, or online if I played online, it's false.

But idk, if I play a second game I don't want to play or build the deck on the assumption that I'm going to be losing EV because the strength of my deck is people not knowing what it is.

Mostly though, Loam is so dang mana hungry. I know you don't have to do it every turn, obviously, but I've found Crucibles to be effective enough without the repeated mana investment. If my main reason for playing the card is to generate card advantage in a subtle way, just hitting land drops without being offensive is powerful enough.

Crucible can only ever (well, horizon lands are a thing) help you hit land drops in this deck though. Loam gives you actual real draw with cyclers. If you only want to hit land drops it's really not expensive. 2 mana to hit 3 land drops is pretty reasonable. And if you're cycling you can always do it EOT if keeping mana up is a priority. And ofc crucible is weak to removal, including our own.

I'm considering adding Burgeoning to the deck as a backup for exploration. I think the effect is really valuable even if the second copy is redundant. Curious how people feel about that.

I endorse what @Dunadain said about the recursion pieces. Decent players will take note of what you've recurred and they will likely bait them out. I think you could probably recur, say, a board wipe and a spot removal, with intention to use the wipe immediately, but that's about it unless you're prepared to either use it all quickly or take on the whole table. People are least likely to bait spot removal, I think. But if you're camping on a counterspell or a board wipe, I think anyone who's any kind of competent will be trying to pull it out. If they're behind, they want you to wipe so they can catch up. If they're ahead, they'll want to kill you before you can wipe. If they're neither, they still want you to wipe so they can play cards that will actually stick. It's also annoyingly true that most players will significantly overestimate how significant their cards are in a game. A player who wants to resolve some mediocre crap you wouldn't have even considered countering will often still try to bait out your counterspells if they're face-up, because they worry you'd counter their spell...instead of the combo pieces being sculpted by another player which you were actually saving them for.

Now, of course someone who's played against the deck will eventually understand that we probably do have answers, likely multiple, in hand at all times, even if they're not face-up. So they won't play their combo without counter backup, they won't overcommit to the board, etc. I think what we need to do to overcome this problem is to relentlessly surprise them with permissiveness. Eventually they'll start to think "jeez, maybe they actually DON'T have a counterspell". And then they finally take a real risk, and that's when we slam the door. And that's just not an option with recursion. You gotta make 'em BELIEVE.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

I think Burgeoning is overkill. I'm happy to draw exploration. I can live without it when I don't. But I never want to draw a second exploration. Never ever.

[Chromaticus]

Back before I was proxying, I had a huge dilemma between ordering heavily played Burgeoning or heavily played Exploration. I went with Burgeoning — and noticed many times that I would rather it be Exploration. Notably, loaming above 7 cards, which is one of the main ways we end up with more lands.

[Dunadain]

After tinkering off and on, here's my updated hippo list:

Decklist

DecklistCMCManaPricesChartsDraw 7

Commander

1 Phelddagrif

Tutors (6)

1 Crop Rotation

1 Intuition

1 Merchant Scroll

1 Muddle the Mixture

1 Mystical Tutor

1 Wargate

CA engines (4)

1 Glimpse of Freedom

1 Life from the Loam

1 Pulse of the Grid

1 Whispers of the Muse

Card Quality (4)

1 Brainstorm

1 Dig Through Time

1 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Silundi Vision // Silundi Isle

Defense (4)

1 Moment's Peace

1 Nexus of Fate

1 Pulse of the Fields

1 Teferi's Protection

Counterspells (9)

1 An Offer You Can't Refuse

1 Arcane Denial

1 Counterspell

1 Disallow

1 Dovin's Veto

1 Force of Negation

1 Force of Will

1 Mana Drain

1 Mindbreak Trap

Spot Removal (17)

1 Beast Within

1 Blink of an Eye

1 Contraband Livestock

1 Endless Detour

1 Excise the Imperfect

1 Fateful Absence

1 Generous Gift

1 Heliod's Intervention

1 Into the Roil

1 Nature's Claim

1 Oblation

1 Path to Exile

1 Pongify

1 Rapid Hybridization

1 Stroke of Midnight

1 Swords to Plowshares

1 Unexpectedly Absent

Board Wipes (8)

1 Cyclonic Rift

1 Devastating Mastery

1 Farewell

1 Hour of Revelation

1 Rout

1 Supreme Verdict

1 Tragic Arrogance

1 Wrath of God

Hall Package (5)

1 Exploration

1 Search for Azcanta // Azcanta, the Sunken Ruin

1 Song of the Dryads

1 Sylvan Library

1 Telepathy

Engine Lands (3)

1 Arch of Orazca

1 Bonders' Enclave

1 The Shire

Dessert and/or Loam lands (7)

1 Desert of the Indomitable

1 Desert of the Mindful

1 Desert of the True

1 Irrigated Farmland

1 Scattered Groves

1 Scavenger Grounds

1 Spara's Headquarters

Tech-Lands (10)

1 Alchemist's Refuge

1 Arcane Lighthouse

1 Boseiju, Who Endures

1 Ghost Quarter

1 Hall of Heliod's Generosity

1 Kor Haven

1 Mystic Sanctuary

1 Ondu Inversion // Ondu Skyruins

1 Otawara, Soaring City

1 Thespian's Stage

Fixing/Basics (22)

1 Arid Mesa

1 Azorius Chancery

1 Breeding Pool

1 Command Tower

1 Fabled Passage

1 Flooded Strand

1 Hallowed Fountain

1 Marsh Flats

1 Misty Rainforest

1 Polluted Delta

1 Prismatic Vista

1 Scalding Tarn

1 Snow-Covered Forest

2 Snow-Covered Island

2 Snow-Covered Plains

1 Temple Garden

1 Verdant Catacombs

1 Windswept Heath

1 Wooded Foothills

1 Yavimaya, Cradle of Growth

Approximate Total Cost:

Sorry if the ridiculous number of tags makes it difficult to parse, so many cards in the list fulfill multiple different roles, so it's difficult to fit things neatly into broad categories. At any rate, these are the categories which I used to think about the deck conceptually, so at least it makes sense to me.

I still think Brainstorm is really good (controversial opinion, I know) digging for answers at instant speed is really good, and it makes Mystical Tutor a lot more flexible. Same logic applies to Dig Through Time, and Sensei's Divining Top. Silundi Vision // Silundi Isle has also never disappointed me in my old list, it's just a land unless you draw it in the late game, in which case an emergency dig 6 feels really good to sit on. Opt and Consider were in the running until final cuts as well. I really think digging at instant speed is good in this deck. Honestly, Ponder, Preordain, and Serum Visions are probably fine as well, but they lose a lot of their appeal at sorcery speed.

After thinking about it some more, I agree with @DirkGently's analysis of Cryptic Command. It's not so much that the card is bad, it's that, when I list out all the available counterspells we have nowadays, it becomes pretty clear that it can't really keep up. The only counterspell I'm running that costs more than 2 MV (and doesn't have alternate costs like Force of Will, Force of Negation, and Mindbreak Trap) is Disallow.

Of course, the most interesting change is the Hall of Heliod's Generosity package. I ended up not running the Font of Fortunes engine, instead, I opted to bring back Sylvan Library and Search for Azcanta // Azcanta, the Sunken Ruin, better stand-alone cards, less mana intensive, and less vulnerable to grave hate.

Song of the Dryads came back, booting out Immovable Rod in favor of Hall synergies, and Out of Time got cut because I've always found it awkward and it's probably too oppressive with Hall.

Edit: the moment I finish the list, an upgrade to to Teferi's protection gets spoiled. everybody lives will probably replace it in my list but maybe I'll just run both

[TheAmericanSpirit]

What do you folks think of Attunement? I like that it can jump out of harm's way a la SDT and feed loam, but it doesn't actually give CA, it just digs.

Edit: @Dunadain how has the Shire been for you so far? I've been on the fence about it because the food seems low impact but I'd love to be wrong!

[Dunadain]

Maybe if Attunement was card neutral, but it's -1 card when you first cast it, and -1 card each time you activate it.

I'll let you know about The Shire, as I just added it. I think it'll actually be decent. At 5 mana gain three it would be pretty bad, but the fact that you can split it up means to ought to be able to work in a decent number of activations. (Then if you really need the life gain you can go 5 mana a turn turbo-mode). I think I will prioritize creating food over eating them. Food can be cracked anytime you have two left over mana. Where activating shire can only be done once per turn and takes 3.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

Yo guys, I know we all differ on UB, but hear me out:

The Pandorica may be our new Immovable Rod. The cost is a bit more frontloaded but it's the same total cost to play&use in a pinch. Phasing also works better with layers than merely stripping abilities and combat capacity. It also is a whole lot more bearable to hold up than Rod, even though we lose out Dungeons. Speaking of Dungeons, the pandorica doesn't require us to carry one around for 1/99 of our deck.

I think overall it's a huge bump up.

MAJOR EDIT: Somehow I missed the sorcery speed part. %$#%$#% it

[Dunadain]

lmao, same rollercoaster went through my head when I read it.


Though, while we are talking about Doctor Who, Everybody Lives! is probably my new #1 fog pick. I like that it's a fog that is also relevant against more competitive, combo-based, decks. Take THAT Thassa's Oracle!

[TheAmericanSpirit]

I'm a little lukewarm on Everybody Lives!. The "can't lose life" clause doesn't protect against commander damage and the overall symmetry of the effect may force us to save people we'd rather see dead. I think if we really want a thoracle combo-breaker, it may just be better to play Angel's Grace.

[Dunadain]

I'm a little lukewarm on Everybody Lives!. The "can't lose life" clause doesn't protect against commander damage and the overall symmetry of the effect may force us to save people we'd rather see dead. I think if we really want a thoracle combo-breaker, it may just be better to play Angel's Grace.

The fact that it doesn't defend against commander damage IS a real problem, but I don't think it's that big of a deal, and I imagine you agree because in the very next sentence you reccomended Angel's Grace which also doesn't save you from commander damage.

As for saving everyone else as well, I touched on this a bit earlier, but it's a bit of a mixed bag. If Timmy casts hoof in the late game, when we are sitting on a grip full of wraths, removal, and counters, Then we'll happily cast Teferi's Protection and go to the 1v1 stage. However, if some aggro deck comes out swinging when we still are only setting up, then we kind of need our opponents to stay alive. I find myself using Phelddagrif, or the spells in my hand to save my opponents all the time, so having the ability to save our opponents can be a good thing.

Overall, I think it's a toss up, fogs that only protect you and fogs that protect the whole table are roughly equal, and I'm more interested in what else the fog offers. If I had to choose, however, I think the fogs that save everyone are slightly better. Going back to the first scenario, if we are already set up with wraths, removal, and counters, then we are doing fairly well, and if we have to wait a few more turns to get into a 1v1, so be it, Phelddagrif is nothing if not patient.

If we could get a fog that gave any number of target players protection though, now that would be sweet.

I started writing a whole thing comparing fogs, then realized I really need a visual, so I made this:


Leeches is just a joke because I noticed that none of the fogs save you from proliferation or Prologue to Phyresis.

Now obviously, flexibility isn't everything, Angel's Grace might be the least flexible of the options I listed above (besides Leeches), but it's also the cheapest and pretty much impossible to interact with. Having said that, this is Phelddagrif, we do like our flexibility.

If I expected to go up against at least one Thassa's Oracle gamer every game, then I'd be all over it. But outside of Thassa's Oracle and (to a lesser extent) Maze's End, Angel's Grace is going to pretty useless in probably a little over half of my games.

Compare that to all these other options that, at the very least, provide an answer to a lethal combat swing (something I expect at least one player to be capable of in every game I play).

Additionally, not all of these win-cons are created equal, being able to fog regular combat damage is probably the most important mode on a fog. This table is far from the end-all be-all for determinign how good a fog is, but I thought it was a handy visual for getting an idea of how often you'll be able to find a use for them.

Having listed the options out like this, I do think Teferi's Protection is still probably the best, but I'd probably put Everybody Lives! in second place, then Comeuppance, then regular Fogs. Orim's Chant and Mandate of Peace are so close to being great, but they have back-breaking timing restrictions, to the point where I honestly don't think either of them merit too much consideration.

But again, this is a meta-call. I probably see a Thassa's Oracle in a quarter of my games, which is insane, but still far too rare to play Angel's Grace. Everybody Lives! however, is pretty much always going to be relevant against SOMETHING.


Edit: meant to add that my table ignores mill-win-conditions because I run Nexus of Fate. If you don't Blessed Respite might be something to look at.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

I'm a little lukewarm on Everybody Lives!. The "can't lose life" clause doesn't protect against commander damage and the overall symmetry of the effect may force us to save people we'd rather see dead. I think if we really want a thoracle combo-breaker, it may just be better to play Angel's Grace.

The fact that it doesn't defend against commander damage IS a real problem, but I don't think it's that big of a deal, and I imagine you agree because in the very next sentence you reccomended Angel's Grace which also doesn't save you from commander damage.

Well, Voltron is one of our better endgame matchups, so the damage definitely isn't the deal breaker that saving everyone is imo. I like to be a little selective with who I choose to assist. But I wouldn't really play either tbh. There's nearly no thoracle in my meta anymore, WAAAY down from the height of its local popularity.

But I respect the chart and the need to clamp down on thoracle if it's appearing that often for you.

[Dunadain]

I'm a little lukewarm on Everybody Lives!. The "can't lose life" clause doesn't protect against commander damage and the overall symmetry of the effect may force us to save people we'd rather see dead. I think if we really want a thoracle combo-breaker, it may just be better to play Angel's Grace.

The fact that it doesn't defend against commander damage IS a real problem, but I don't think it's that big of a deal, and I imagine you agree because in the very next sentence you reccomended Angel's Grace which also doesn't save you from commander damage.

Well, Voltron is one of our better endgame matchups, so the damage definitely isn't the deal breaker that saving everyone is imo. I like to be a little selective with who I choose to assist. But I wouldn't really play either tbh. There's nearly no thoracle in my meta anymore, WAAAY down from the height of its local popularity.

But I respect the chart and the need to clamp down on thoracle if it's appearing that often for you.

I swear my playgroup is allergic to combat damage. It's out of control lmao. I hope the chart didn't come off as an "own" or anything, just realized it was a lot easier to make a chart then write a novel describing each fog's pros and cons.

But what you said about being "selective with who [you] choose to assist", NONE of these fogs are selective in who you save, Fog always saves everyone. Teferi's Protection always only saves you. If their WAS a fog that allowed you to be selective, it would be pretty great I think. but the best we can do is run both kinds of fogs, so at least we have the option to tutor for the kind that we need.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

@Dunadain nonono, you misunderstand me. I love me a %$#% chart. Anyone who's willing to commit the time/energy to a visual aid has my respect.

I do think you're underselling the ability to cast spells on attacks that don't involve us. If P1 attacks P2 for lethal but I want to endgame against P2 and not P1, I can fog to save THEM. If P1 attacks us both, I can fog to save US. Most fogs have this flexibility inherently in the way they're worded. Hence, the aforementioned discretion I prefer. EL! Is just a touch too generous for my tastes having never once played the card. Admittedly I'm always willing to be completely wrong in preview season.

[Dunadain]

I do think you're underselling the ability to cast spells on attacks that don't involve us. If P1 attacks P2 for lethal but I want to endgame against P2 and not P1, I can fog to save THEM. If P1 attacks us both, I can fog to save US. Most fogs have this flexibility inherently in the way they're worded. Hence, the aforementioned discretion I prefer. EL! Is just a touch too generous for my tastes having never once played the card. Admittedly I'm always willing to be completely wrong in preview season.

I'm still lost, in the scenario you set up, both Everybody Lives! and Fog protect everyone.

[TheGildedGoose]

What do you folks think of Attunement? I like that it can jump out of harm's way a la SDT and feed loam, but it doesn't actually give CA, it just digs.

Slogurk has entered the chat

I had completely forgotten this card existed since my days experimenting with Worldgorger Dragon combo around Judgment. That card seems completely bananas in any deck that wants to churn through its deck and utilize its graveyard, but not here. It's a) repeatable and b) a little too chonky; four is a lot and I can see getting in over your head through the card disadvantage.

As for Everybody Lives!, I think the card is very strong in the right decks but here it's just another Fog variant that handles Thoracle. We can't use it to protect our board since we don't have one, and that's kind of one of the major draws.

[Chromaticus]

I'm curious for thoughts on Shadowspear —

The most relevant parts in my mind are the lifelink and the ability to remove hexproof / indestructible.

Sometimes I take an early wallop with this deck, and getting 5 life back would be a good get.

[duducrash]

Hi guys, this is not a suggestion, more of a question to understand philosophy and get better at it myself.

Why this deck isn't a Field of the Dead deck, and to an extend Castle Ardenvale ?

P.S I'd like to also point out that I was deeply dissapointed that the subsection called "Phelddagrif Basics" isn't a highly in depht discussion of what arts you chose for your 6 basics

[Dunadain]

Why this deck isn't a Field of the Dead deck, and to an extend Castle Ardenvale ?

We don't really need a token army, Phelddagrif is a control deck, and Phelddagrif makes a perfectly functional, nigh immortal, win condition. playing Field of the Dead encourages our opponents to use their removal against our tokens/lands instead of against our opponents, and once it really gets going, it's likely to encourage the table to team up against us, which is the opposite of what the deck is trying to do.

P.S I'd like to also point out that I was deeply dissapointed that the subsection called "Phelddagrif Basics" isn't a highly in depht discussion of what arts you chose for your 6 basics

I run snow-basics whenever I can, just so that my basics all appear together when I sort alphabetically, and there's nothing you can do to stop me.

[TheGildedGoose]

I'm curious for thoughts on Shadowspear —

The most relevant parts in my mind are the lifelink and the ability to remove hexproof / indestructible.

Sometimes I take an early wallop with this deck, and getting 5 life back would be a good get.

Arcane Lighthouse/Detection Tower + Pulse of the Fields make it kind of redundant. Plus, it's inevitably going to be caught in a sweeper.

Why this deck isn't a Field of the Dead deck, and to an extend Castle Ardenvale ?

What does Field do for us actually? We can't realistically win with it, so we can really only make blockers with it. However, since Field is such a threatening card, I suspect it will draw more attention and cost you more life than having not played it at all. Ardenvale has a much lower threat profile, sure, but the best defense in Phelddagrif is maintaining a minor threat profile.

P.S I'd like to also point out that I was deeply dissapointed that the subsection called "Phelddagrif Basics" isn't a highly in depht discussion of what arts you chose for your 6 basics

Ice Age, baybee.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

Cyber Conversion may be pretty good for us. Instant speed neutralization is pretty rare and the cost is extremely competitive.

[TheGildedGoose]

Cyber Conversion may be pretty good for us. Instant speed neutralization is pretty rare and the cost is extremely competitive.

I'd say it's slightly worse than Reality Shift. No risk of manifesting something nasty, but with a more restrictive cost. This might actually make the cut in Slogurk since I'm hard up on hard spot removal.

[Hawk]

Yeah, was super hyped about Cyber Conversion at first blush since it is better at screwing with commanders especially against a deck without sacrifice outlets. But for us, I think it's generally worse than:

- Swords to Plowshares
- Stroke of Midnight
- Beast Within
- Generous Gift
- Pongify
- Rapid Hybridization
- Darksteel Mutation

And about even with Path to Exile, Song of the Dryads, Fateful Absence, and Reality Shift. From there that's a question of how much point removal you want to run (and if something like Nature's Claim or Krosan Grip is taking those slots). Most of us are running 15-20 spells so this probably gets a slot though.