Phelddagrif: Show Weakness to Hide Your Strength

[NestordeSinope]

Hi guys,

I use to play a Phelddagrif decklist (thanks to you DirkGently) since a year (and I never write here before today, shame on me !).
I had a lot of fun games and it's very exciting to try to find some space and make the cut for new cards, I enjoy that deck a lot, even more than my Phage one.
But I have a big big issue with winning. It almost never happens. People are not targetting me, I always manage to be invisible and most of the time, I'm one of the two players who stay at the table for the finish. But the clock is my worst ennemy. my opponent takes 12-16 commander damages from Phelddagrif, but not that's not enough.
Nevertheless, I have some lands to help the beatdowning (Tyrite Sanctum, Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers, Oran-Rief, the Vastwood) but I'm wondering if I shouldn't try to include Blackblade Reforged for the very last run. Did you guys tried it already ? Do you think it could be something or it doesn't fit at all with Phelddagrif spirit ?

[TheAmericanSpirit]

Hi guys,

I use to play a Phelddagrif decklist (thanks to you DirkGently) since a year (and I never write here before today, shame on me !).
I had a lot of fun games and it's very exciting to try to find some space and make the cut for new cards, I enjoy that deck a lot, even more than my Phage one.
But I have a big big issue with winning. It almost never happens. People are not targetting me, I always manage to be invisible and most of the time, I'm one of the two players who stay at the table for the finish. But the clock is my worst ennemy. my opponent takes 12-16 commander damages from Phelddagrif, but not that's not enough.
Nevertheless, I have some lands to help the beatdowning (Tyrite Sanctum, Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers, Oran-Rief, the Vastwood) but I'm wondering if I shouldn't try to include Blackblade Reforged for the very last run. Did you guys tried it already ? Do you think it could be something or it doesn't fit at all with Phelddagrif spirit ?

Winning with Grif IME is all about sculpting your favored endgame. It's important to make sure the player weakest to your control and voltron wincon is the survivor for the 1v1. This usually involves a degree of trickery to make sure the other players bite and don't suspect your inevitability, but a safe bet usually is to buff up a newer player. Odds are that they won't have enough experience to play around your endgame and the other players are less likely to aggro you if you're ostensibly just leveling the playing field for Johnny Precon. The cherry on top is that a new player is also more likely to appreciate the "fun" of our political offerings and therefore is less likely to hold a lingering post-game grudge even after the grindiest outcome.

[DirkGently]

Completely agree with @TheAmericanSpirit - probably the safest way to transition to the 1v1 is to hold a wipe in hand alongside a bunch of counters and with a good draw engine, and just before the penultimate opponent dies, bounce griff by letting the dying opponent draw. Then wipe to reset and commence trading 1:1 with anything that might outpace your clock. If you play like that all the time it might start arousing more suspicion, but as a general template it's a pretty easy win.

I don't play anything to speed my clock up because I don't think they improve my win rate, and they're dead cards for most of the game.

[pokken]

Reprieve is better than Remand because it can hit uncounterable spells. worth considering on that basis.

edit: Lol, i was super late to the party here...apparently the last post I had read about was the LOTR set review.

Whatever. I don't think Reprieve is permanent enough, and countering uncounterable stuff temporarily is...marginally useful at best for this deck. I think I'd be inclined to try Summary Dismissal first if you really needed that effect. Which you probably don't unless you're in an Eldrazi heavy meta. :shrug:

[shorebot]

You can use Derevi to tap down blockers/attackers and (un)tap mana sources. This is roughly the same as giving cards and tokens. I've been playing a Derevi voltron turbofog and it is practically creatureless. It is fairly similar to this list but instead of generic control cards I run fogs (I've found out that if you don't die you don't need to remove anything). Derevi's power doesn't matter that much as usually opponents don't have answers so they just concede. I do run Noble Heritage and Lion Sash as a way to increase the clock.

I run a creatureless Derevi list that's very, very heavily based on this primer. It's my favorite deck by a wide margin, but I'm 100% certain that Phelddagrif is better because its activated abilities mean that the deck's power scales with the pilot's politics skills (which isn't something you can measure from a powerlevel perspective). That's the main strength of this build. The decklist looks like a hot mess but it just works.

I run Derevi because I'm slightly less patient than true Phelddagrif players (and I'm complete trash at politics), alongside mortal sins like Approach of the Second Sun and Seasons Past. Animal Sanctuary speeds up Derevi's clock, but otherwise the amount of interaction and wipes means that this archetype has an uncanny ability to break opposing decks' engines at just the seemingly most opportune moments. The deck wins by manipulating the game into the 1v1 against someone you can control. Fogs don't really help with that.

[DirkGently]

Stroke of Midnight is an obvious shoe-in for the deck. Surprising it's for standard considering gift was in horizons and stroke is usually better.

Expel the Interlopers could potentially have upside, but there are plenty of 5-mana wraths with upside so I can't see it making the cut.

Anyway, not the most exciting discussion but one top-tier removal spell ain't bad these days.

[Hawk]

I am curious for folks that play in more competitive metas if Stroke of Midnight is better or worse than Generous Gift/Beast Within. To me it's a clear upgrade and the 2nd best single-target removal spell in the game for this deck after Swords, although obviously I think this deck just runs all three since I've joked before if I could run 7 Swords to Plowshares and 8 Beast/Gift/Stroke, that's more or less my ideal single-target removal composition for 'grif.

To talk about more cards, I at least briefly considered Asinine Antics for the memes but the fact that the creatures keep their abilities means it is not worth it. I'm not positive I'd play it even if it did strip abilities, but it's certainly not playable as is.

I also think that I'd at least consider Extraordinary Journey if it had Flash, but at sorcery speed it's sadly unplayable.

And for folks looking for more options or who can't afford the best ones, I don't despise Farsight Ritual or Quick Study even though this deck will almost never get to Bargain out the Ritual, since "look at 4 draw 2" is a fine enough baseline for a 4-cost draw spell. Admittedly, it's not like Fact or Fiction, Pulse of the Grid, Thirst for Discovery, Whispers of the Muse, Sphinx's Revelation, Dig Through Time, or Treasure Cruise are breaking the bank these days though, and this deck rarely wants to run more than 7 or 8 draw/dig/reload type spells.

[Dunadain]

Have we ever talked about Filter Out on this thread? I totally missed it because Aftermath was a confusing %$#%.

It's not revolutionary, not hitting creatures makes it pretty niche, but bouncing ALL nonland, noncreature permanents is a pretty potent effect for 3 mana, I wouldn't even consider it if it was sorcery speed, but it's an instant and its just so gosh darn efficient.

Idk, I'll probably take it for a spin (though I haven't actually played a game with the hippo in a hot minute), what do y'all think?

[Hawk]

Have we ever talked about Filter Out on this thread? I totally missed it because Aftermath was a confusing %$#%.

It's not revolutionary, not hitting creatures makes it pretty niche, but bouncing ALL nonland, noncreature permanents is a pretty potent effect for 3 mana, I wouldn't even consider it if it was sorcery speed, but it's an instant and its just so gosh darn efficient.

Idk, I'll probably take it for a spin (though I haven't actually played a game with the hippo in a hot minute), what do y'all think?

I keep forgetting Filter hits 'walkers (and battles lol) since I've only seen it played in Jhoira, Weatherlight Captain as "Retract #4".

I think for me, since I am already running Hour of Revelation, Cyclonic Rift, and Devastating Mastery and they are amongst the best boardwipes in my '99, it's tough to sell me on a wipe that doesn't wipe the most played card type in the format. Definitely worth a consideration if your meta is just rife with enchantments, artifacts, and superfriends though. I suppose if I reframe this as "Return to Nature +++" it's better, but the surgical nature of those cards is actually pretty key for me. You want to blow up Bolas's Citadel or Panharmonicon or whatever, not necessarily smash everyone's mana rocks into the stone age and aggro the table. So mostly a no from me, I think.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

I think Oblation is finally out of my list. The tuck has become largely irrelevant and there's not really enough indestructible running around to justify giving away a draw two. Stroke may lose out on the potential to shuffle in our own (scarce] nonland permanents for value late game, but a 1/1 is so much less of a tradeoff than two whole cards. The math checks out to me.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

So I was recently considering adding a small Urza's Saga package to the deck. Something along these lines

• Enlightened Tutor
• Urza's Saga
• Sensei's Divining Top
• Shadowspear
• Relic of Progenitus
• Glasses of Urza
• Haywire Mite
• Expedition Map

Not sure how I'd make the room or if these are even the right cards, but I feel like this could add some solid utility without diluting the core intentions of the deck. Mite and Relic are solid removal, Top is insane as always, Glasses are a less annoying Telepathy, Map is a nice tutor for other utility lands, and Shadowspear helps the lategame race while also doubling as a backup Arcane Lighthouse. Loam also lets us replay Saga pretty easily for more digging.

Then again, I'm a toolbox fiend so I may just be letting all the Modern staples I have lying around go to my head. What do you folks think?

[Dunadain]

So I was recently considering adding a small Urza's Saga package to the deck. Something along these lines

• Enlightened Tutor
• Urza's Saga
• Sensei's Divining Top
• Shadowspear
• Relic of Progenitus
• Glasses of Urza
• Haywire Mite
• Expedition Map

Not sure how I'd make the room or if these are even the right cards, but I feel like this could add some solid utility without diluting the core intentions of the deck. Mite and Relic are solid removal, Top is insane as always, Glasses are a less annoying Telepathy, Map is a nice tutor for other utility lands, and Shadowspear helps the lategame race while also doubling as a backup Arcane Lighthouse. Loam also lets us replay Saga pretty easily for more digging.

Then again, I'm a toolbox fiend so I may just be letting all the Modern staples I have lying around go to my head. What do you folks think?

I'm not buying it, Haywire Mite is only a good removal spell in decks that are running 4x Urza's Saga and not much removal, it means you have functionally 5x removal spells in your deck, without haven't to worry about drawing them when you don't want them. Even then, it doesn't make the cut in a lot of saga packages.

Compare that to Phelddagrif, where we can only run 1 saga, and we have removal coming out of our ears, and I think it becomes a pretty embarrassing "removal" spell.

I think Glasses of Urza is a more annoying Telepathy, not less, as you have to activate it, drawing attention to yourself and slowing the game down. Plus, only seeing one hand is a heck of a lot worse than seeing everyone's.

Shadowspear is fine, but not really worth the deck slot, I think it's easy to underestimate how often you'll draw your tutor package pieces, the slot aren't free.

Relic of Progenitus I can get behind, not quite as clean as the Scavenger Grounds package, but it cantrips, so i think it's decent.

Expedition Map is the only card in the tutor package that I think is actively good, it cab secure lands drops and get all your tech lands, I've honestly considered running it just on its own, but I'm not sure it alone can justify Urza's Saga.


Also, the constructs are pretty antithetical to the plan, obviously you can just not make them, or use them for chump blocks, but you are missing out on a lot of the value that makes saga so good elsewhere.

I say all this as someone that thinks saga should go in most EDH decks, just not this one.

Edit: forgot about Sensei's Divining Top. I actually think top is great in phelddagrif, I know dirk thinks it might be too high of a threat profile, but I think the days of top being a scary t1 play are long gone, so I run it.

Still not sure that's enough to justify a land that yeats itself after three turns, but it's something.

[Hawk]

Wanted to second that Glasses of Urza is much, much, much, much worse than Telepathy. The power of Telepathy is that everyone knows everything - and you can then use that. "Bob has a boardwipe" or "Alice has Thorcale in her hand and you know what that's gotta mean" are no longer idle speculation, but you pointing out threat levels that are now public knowledge. Not only is Glasses bad for all the reasons @Dunadain mentioned (higher threat profile, less intel for you), only you get to look which now means the rest of the table has to take your word for how bad Bob's hand is for them.

As a result, I also would eschew a Urza's Saga package, as I think the card itself has a higher threat profile that eats into your ability to stay "invisible", and cards like Top, Relic, and Shadowspear are also not as "invisible" and are prone to you having to wipe them yourself. I might be higher on it if it was like Trinket Mage as being able to go find artifact lands and Engineered Explosives would be hot, but as it stands I wouldn't do it. Ultimately it's moot for me as I don't own one and if I get one it's going straight into Daretti or Lurrus first, but that's my $0.02.

[DirkGently]

It's been a...long while since I actually updated my Phelddagrif list, though I have been accumulating some cards that ought to fit into it. Definitely noticing some rust on the hinges. Since there aren't many commanders that really excite me in WOE, I'll hopefully have a little time to do a proper overhaul of the deck and reassess a few things while I'm at it.

I do want to do some deeper dives on some potentially larger modifications, but I'm running on very little sleep so for now let's just run through one of the basic categories: counterspells.

Cryptic Command - I'm a decent bit lower on this than I used to be. One of the big themes here is going to be my dislike for value-added answers. Flexibility and reliability are what we're looking for, not extra value. Cryptic is pretty flexible, but 4 mana for a Boomerang is a pretty awful rate if you're using it for removal, or for counterspell. The tapdown is admittedly nice, but I don't love proactive fogs. Idk, the flexibility to pick any of them, and the value - while I don't value it super highly - is at least something. But 1UUU is a rough cost. In an increasingly fast world, I think it could get cut. On the watch list.

Mystic Confluence - This is maybe the rustiest card in the deck, and the one that really made me want to do the overhaul. I hate this card. It's not flexible enough to justify the cost, and it's not even a hard counterspell so unreliable. The only big advantage is the added value, which I shun. So yeah, easy cut.

Disallow/Voidslime - I still like both of these. I think the flexibility is worth the extra cost. Finding slots for stifles can be tricky otherwise.

Force of Will/Force of Negation - Definitely still solid options. Being able to be cast for free when required is a big add.

Counterspell/Mana Drain - hard to imagine cutting. You can't really beat 2 mana counter anything.

Arcane Denial - except for arcane denial. Never getting cut.

Mindbreak Trap - I think a lot of powerful turns these days involve casting 3+ spells, making this a really strong card. Love having this in hand.

Summary Dismissal - 4 is a lot for what will usually just be a counterspell. I'm kinda down on this as the format has accelerated. 4 mana isn't hard to hold up, but if we need to cast multiple spells, or cast some value-generation, this becomes a real issue. Watch list for sure.

Dovin's Veto - I think this shores up our scarier matchups versus other control decks that run actual, y'know, finishers, so probably leaving it in even though it's mid in most games.

Stifle - I like the low cost, but idk if it's quite worth a full slot. What's y'alls opinions on it? Probably Trickbind is better if anything.

Nimble Obstructionist - I do like the semi-uncounterability and ability to active under some stax effects, but 3 is way too high and is mostly for the cantrip, which, no. Cut.

Commit // Memory - The flexibilty is top notch, but the cost is pretty high. I think I still like it, but what do y'all think?

Swan Song - Very anti-cEDH from a cost front. I think...

(And the ones I'd be potentially adding)

An Offer You Can't Refuse - has mostly upstaged swan song. I could see running both for the maximum anti-cEDH, tech but if we're doing that then we're definitely cutting the more expensive stuff. Not much point to having a couple anti-cEDH cards if a high proportion of the deck is 3+ cmc.

There's a lot of other anti-cEDH cards like Mental Misstep, Dispel, Spell Pierce, Miscast, etc. I think those are probably all crappy enough in non-cEDH that I wouldn't play them but YMMV.


Render Silent - potentially pretty strong add in the right context.

Wash Away - honestly missed this one, but it seems potentially pretty decent. Lot of broken stuff gets cast from not-hand, and obviously commanders.

Endless Detour - Yeah, yeah, I haven't actually put this in yet. How has it held up for y'all?

[Dunadain]

I lately agree with most of your analysis, I also need to update my deck list.

An Offer You Can't Refuse is the real deal, better than Swan Song even, though I'd just run both.

I don't think you missed Wash Away, I couple have sworn we already talked about it in this thread. Either way, I don't think it's worth it, I don't usually find myself countering commanders (countering commanders is kind of a raw deal, because they don't actually lose the card, of course, you do what you have to do, but I try to avoid it, and I'm not sure running a card that's only really good if I am countering a commander is that good). Much better if you think your going to have a lot of other targets for it (like cascade decks).

I also haven't actually gotten around to playing Endless Detour XD. I still think it's really good, but I need to add it.

I think Stifle is bad, but I've thought that for years, Disallow and Voidslime are both much better in my eyes. If I wanted more ability counters, though, I'd reach for Nimble Obstructionist first. Honestly Tale's End might be worth looking into if you really want more of the effect.


On another note, I've been trying to get Hall of Heliod's Generosity to work, I'll let you know what it looks like once I get it to a point I'm happy with.

[TheGildedGoose]

My last list ran these:

An Offer You Can't Refuse
Stubborn Denial
Swan Song
Counterspell
Dovin's Veto
Mana Drain
Negate
Fierce Guardianship
Forbid
Force of Negation

... but I also ran Shigeki, Jukai Visionary and Seasons Past as mid and late game "reload" cards to reset the game if needed, so my counters are a tiny bit light. My only complaint was that I ran one to two too many noncreature counters, as while noncreatures threatening, there are just a higher density of creatures out there than anything else.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

I personally like Cryptic Command. The option to use it as a fog has saved my bacon more than once. I also like Commit, because it becomes hard removal in response to a shuffle effect and the timetwister on the back is occasionally useful. Endless detour has been solid, about the same value as Bant Charm most of the time.

I agree on cutting most of the remaining high cost answers though. With the wealth of cheap removal to which we have access, I think any non-wrath card above 3 cmc is somewhat questionable. As I've said before, very few cards feel irreplaceable here as the list can easily just rotate its stock of best-in-class answers to whatever's optimal going forward.

Looking forward to seeing an updated list to one of my favorite decks of all time! I'm currently working on a mid-budget loam-less version (~$500 USD) so I'm especially interested in how you update the budget and budgetless takes!

[DirkGently]

@Dunadain My justification for wash away is partly that, against a lot of cEDH decks, just having SOME interaction at 1mv can make a big difference. A lot of combos are dependent on everything going right and have a significant number of interaction points. And then in normal games a cancel is totally fine. Idk that it's actually justified or anything, I'm just saying I think it's potentially interesting. Either way I don't remember talking about it. Or pretty much anything from that iteration of innistrad tbh. Every time I see a card from one of those two sets it throws me.

Tale's end is decent, true. Though falls into a similar vein as wash away - wash away is counterspell that you pay extra for because it's good against commanders (and some other things). Tale's end is stifle that you pay extra for because it's good against commanders. Though tbf there are a lot of strong legends that aren't in the CZ in a lot of decks, since the pushed creatures in each set are much more likely to be legends these days.

Definitely going to take a looooong look at utility lands. As always :D

@TheGildedGoose Yeah I'm not a fan of negate or fierce guardianship in this deck, I'd 100% cut one for arcane denial.

@TheAmericanSpirit If CC was an actual fog I'd be a lot higher on it, but my issue is that tapdown is, imo, WAAAAY worse than a fog in this context especially. I really don't like being mister permission going "hmmmmm yeah I guess you can go to combat" or whatever. The best control is being able to let people do almost whatever they want, secure in the knowledge that if they go too far you have the tools to rein them back in. Weak control has to be more proactive to stop people from growing outside the bounds of your capabilities. Ofc ultimately at some point you have to intervene, but it's a question of how far along you can let things go - and the further you can allow things to go, the more likely that they won't feel threatened by you, and ideally they'll kill your other opponents for you. And I think a tapdown-type fog really goes against that ethos. Still nice to have, ofc, it's great that all 4 modes are useful, I just really wish it was a less proactive mode.

Mostly I want to update the personal list. Not sure if I'll update the budgetless/budget versions...I mean maybe, but honestly my personal list is basically just a budgetless version minus 2 ABUs, and budget lists always seem kinda arbitrary to me since it depends how much budget you're willing to spend. I think I lay out the principles well enough that it's an easy deck to build mostly with whatever you have laying around tbh, rather than tracking down specific mid-tier removal because I happened to semi-arbitrarily pick it to include in my budget list.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

@DirkGently I usually don't have to use CC's tapdown until the 1v1 phase, so the timing hasn't been much of a political drawback in practice. More often than not, it's a fancy Dismiss or Leave in the Dust, which admittedly isn't great but my nostalgia for Lorwyn is definitely a thumb on the scales.

[DirkGently]

@TheAmericanSpirit Nearly every 1v1 starts with me wiping the board, which usually makes a fog unnecessary except to maybe buy a turn. I'm a lot more interested in fogs as a hedge in case someone decides to take a cheeky alpha strike our way.

Which I wanted to get some perspectives on tbh. I'm not running any fogs in my list at the moment, but when I have I've generally found them pretty comforting to have on hand. And while they don't look super anti-cEDH, they can stop a decent number of high-tier wincons like infinite combat damage combos or craterhoof or whatever, so I think I've maybe been underestimating them. I also want to revisit Maze of Ith effects - we're less interested in straight-up pillowfort, but having a minor roadblock to combat damage available that isn't easily removed might be worthwhile. It's really just a question of how it plays politically - does it direct people elsewhere towards more impactful targets? Or does it play like the great wall in Mulan - "By building his wall he challenged my strength"? There's definitely a point where pillowfort becomes a threat because people fear they can't overcome you in 1v1, but I'm not sure where single-target repeatable fogs fall.

Similar vein, I'm curious to talk about sandbagging CA engines. I.e. you have loam, you have cyclers, everyone can see that you have the capacity to cycle them, but you don't because you don't want to attract attention. Good strategy, or does it just make people assume you're up to something?

[Dunadain]

Which I wanted to get some perspectives on tbh. I'm not running any fogs in my list at the moment, but when I have I've generally found them pretty comforting to have on hand. And while they don't look super anti-cEDH, they can stop a decent number of high-tier wincons like infinite combat damage combos or craterhoof or whatever, so I think I've maybe been underestimating them.

I went pretty deep into the think tank once about fogs. I think they definitely have a place in Phelddagrif. All i want to do is sit on a grip full of answers and wait as long as possible to interact. A single fog gives you so much more lee way. However, they get a lot worse in multiples, so I'd probably only run 0-4.

I think the two chief competitors are Moment's Peace and Teferi's Protection. Obviously the main differences are the flashback on Moment's Peace vs. The additional utility of Teferi's Protection vs. things like Torment of Hailfire. However, the other difference between them is that Teferi's Protection only protects yourself, where Moment's Peace will protect you and everyone else.

Both can be handy, if a player swings for lethal against the whole table, and even if you survive this attack, you don't think you can win the 1v1, then you want Moment's Peace. But oftentimes I find myself in a position where someone swings a lethal strike against the whole table and I'd happily let everyone else die and go into the endgame with the one final opponent.

I think the fogs that protect everyone are a bit more in line with what we are trying to do. If we can survive long enough, we will win eventually. However, Teferi's Protection is relevant in so many situations where other fogs are not.

Just give me a fog that says "any number of target players gain protection from everything until the end of turn. Their life totals can't be changed this turn." I don't care about the ability to protect my permanents WOTC, just give me more modality!

I also want to revisit Maze of Ith effects - we're less interested in straight-up pillowfort, but having a minor roadblock to combat damage available that isn't easily removed might be worthwhile. It's really just a question of how it plays politically - does it direct people elsewhere towards more impactful targets? Or does it play like the great wall in Mulan - "By building his wall he challenged my strength"? There's definitely a point where pillowfort becomes a threat because people fear they can't overcome you in 1v1, but I'm not sure where single-target repeatable fogs fall.

I've never taken Kor Haven out of my list, and for some reason it's never been a problem. I'm always worried that it will be, but I think most decks that are relying on one creature to get through are pretty confident in their ability to eventually find some land destruction or some hexproof.

Invulnerability is a card I'd like to test, but I have misgivings, It might be too much like a Constant Mists lock.

But idk, on paper, I really think the card should be more problematic, but in games, even though I'm activating it all the time, people don't seem to feel too threatened by it. Then again, EDH players aren't known for their threat analysis skills.

Similar vein, I'm curious to talk about sandbagging CA engines. I.e. you have loam, you have cyclers, everyone can see that you have the capacity to cycle them, but you don't because you don't want to attract attention. Good strategy, or does it just make people assume you're up to something?

Specifically with Loam, I don't see too much of a problem, if my hand is full I grab 1 cycler and two fetch lands, then don't bother dredging Loam back until I need more land drops or more card draw. I think people mostly just figure you aren't dredging it because you already have land drops to make? idk, I hate to just say "who cares, everybody's too dumb too notice anyways" but that's certainly how it plays out in practice.

Stepping away from my actual experience, and into more theory, I don't think I would immediately assume someone is up to something just because they aren't drawing more cards, especially if they would just be discarding down to handsize. I guess I'd handle it largely the same way I handle a player with Necropotence or Sylvan Library, but who is still only drawing 1, maybe 2 cards a turn, not an immediate concern, but something I'll need to address or overpower before transitioning into a 1 v 1 with them.

Which raises the question of why are people always so willing to enter into a 1v1 with the hippo, even when they know we are a crushingly inevitable control deck? I've thought about this some, and I don't think that it's only because they are too dumb to realize that I'm probably holding a board wipe, (thought that might be part of it), it's more that they don't have a choice. I find my opponents are often put in a situation of die, or transition into a 1v1 with me where your odds of winning are slim, but non-zero.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

I like fogs and mazes personally. I run Maze of Ith and Kor Haven, plus Moment's Peace, Comeuppance, and Mandate of Peace. Usually one good fog per game is enough to persuade the aggro decks to go elsewhere and the mazes keep stragglers and "free" chip damage at bay.

TBH, I think fogs are one of the best political tools out there. The ability to randomly blank a big attack and then wrath on our turn sends a clear message that we are nothing to %$#% with, even when we otherwise appear undefended. I find this is especially true as the curve of aggro decks drop over time, thus they stand to lose more from a lost opportunity for damage and the subsequent wipe than a deck trying to go big/tall with better individual card quality.

[TheGildedGoose]

On another note, I've been trying to get Hall of Heliod's Generosity to work, I'll let you know what it looks like once I get it to a point I'm happy with.

Shigeki, Jukai Visionary sure loves it. Channel for 3 end of turn, upkeep put Shigeki back on top. Tasty. I also have Immovable Rod, two Crucibles, Out of Time, and Sensei's Divining Top (how it would get in the graveyard I'm not sure, but...) to take advantage of the recursion. Not particularly powerful targets otherwise, but Shigeki presents an absurd and nigh uncounterable source of card advantage that I think is worth exploring.

[Dunadain]

On another note, I've been trying to get Hall of Heliod's Generosity to work, I'll let you know what it looks like once I get it to a point I'm happy with.

Shigeki, Jukai Visionary sure loves it. Channel for 3 end of turn, upkeep put Shigeki back on top. Tasty. I also have Immovable Rod, two Crucibles, Out of Time, and Sensei's Divining Top (how it would get in the graveyard I'm not sure, but...) to take advantage of the recursion. Not particularly powerful targets otherwise, but Shigeki presents an absurd and nigh uncounterable source of card advantage that I think is worth exploring.

So first of all, Hall of Heliod's Generosity only grabs enchantment, so a lot of those artifacts you listed can't be picked up with Hall of Heliod's Generosity.

As to the larger point. Shigeki, Jukai Visionary is kind of the problem with Hall of Heliod's Generosity. It represents every card in your graveyard, every turn. That's pretty unbeatable for any deck in the 1v1. It's another Conqueror's Galleon // Conqueror's Foothold or Seasons Past situation. Sure it's a 2 card combo instead of a one card combo, but once it's assembled, the final result is the same. Heck, I honestly believe this deck could run Hall of Heliod's Generosity + Decree of Silence. We get to those levels of mana, but I don't want to be known as the deck that hard locks opponents out of the game if you let me live long enough.

The thing is, repeatable graveyard recursion is not really something this deck is interested, the exact capabilities of your engine is face up for everyone to see, the deck runs a lot of redundancy, so recurring cards from your graveyard isn't much better than simply drawing new cards. Finally, we are making ourselves weaker to gravehate, something we otherwise can largely ignore (while it hurts the loam engine, the loam engine is awfully resilient to one-shot gravehate).

So theoretically, Hall of Heliod's Generosity isn't something the deck really wants. However, in practice, the fact that it is a tech land that can also recur our two enchantments (Telepathy and Exploration) makes it fairly appealing. Recurring just these two enchantments I don't believe would be terribly threatening, the problem is if you try to add Shigeki, Jukai Visionary/Shark Typhoon/Decree of Silence you are adding hard locks into your deck which are no bueno. Heck, you probably have to cut Out of Time if you want to run Hall of Heliod's Generosity, and that's a hard sacrifice to justify.

The question then becomes is it worth it to run a colorless tech land to maybe save 2 enchantments if they get blown up? Maybe, maybe not. But if you want to run more support for Hall of Heliod's Generosity, you need to make sure you can't assemble any locks with the new enchantments. The more I think about it, the more I honestly think Font of Fortunes is the best option to turn Hall of Heliod's Generosity into an engine. It's laughably inefficient, 7 mana for 1 card. But no one is going to feel threatened by it, and Font of Fortunes can always just be played and left on the field until you drop to 5 or less cards in hand, kind of like a "super clue".

[TheGildedGoose]

So first of all, Hall of Heliod's Generosity only grabs enchantment, so a lot of those artifacts you listed can't be picked up with Hall of Heliod's Generosity.

Okay, I was looking at an Enlightened Tutor package when I was writing that which made me think Hall got back artifacts, too. Oops!

The thing is, repeatable graveyard recursion is not really something this deck is interested, the exact capabilities of your engine is face up for everyone to see, the deck runs a lot of redundancy, so recurring cards from your graveyard isn't much better than simply drawing new cards. Finally, we are making ourselves weaker to gravehate, something we otherwise can largely ignore (while it hurts the loam engine, the loam engine is awfully resilient to one-shot gravehate).

Honestly, the repeatable recursion is a bit of a trap. I've never had to resolve more than one Seasons Past (outside of Turnabout combo) to win a game, but the capability is there, just in case. I would run Mystical Tutor and Solve the Equation regardless of whether or not I run SP.

I completely disagree about recursion not being "much better" than drawing new cards. As you point out, the deck runs a lot of redundancy, and by the time SP and Shigeki, Jukai Visionary come online our graveyard should be well stocked with lots of cards from lots of categories. SP routinely recurs 4-5 cards for me, typically enough to make sure my hand has something from every category and thus equipped to handle whatever is thrown at me.

As far as making ourselves weaker to gravehate, well, technically, yes. However, if we're gonna Moneyball this, are we going to win more games because of powerful recursion or lose more games to graveyard hate because of running those spells? To me, the power of the SP package relies on the deck otherwise not being a graveyard-centric deck.

I actually cut Life from the Loam for a few reasons, not the least of which was because of information leakage. When you flop over Devastating Mastery, Mana Drain, and Merchant Scroll the cat is kind of out of the bag.

I think the rest of the thread and myself are just at different places with regard to recursion packages.