Warhammer 40K, Lord of the Rings, and other IPs in Magic.

[RxPhantom]

This topic needed its own thread because it was dominating the Off-Topic Forum. As most of you know already, Magic will soon be integrating other IPs into black border Magic in a product line called Universes Beyond, which will start in 2022. These cards will not be legal in Standard, Modern, or Pioneer. Warhammer 40,000 and Lord of the Rings will be the first of many to get the new treatment. By the end of 2022, at least four other IPs will have black bordered cards in Magic, not including the Godzilla re-skins.

40K will getting a booster release (I thought I read that somewhere) and a set of Commander decks, while this response on Mark Rosewater's blog lead me to believe that LotR will get a booster release as well. There are probably a lot more in the pipeline.

I have strong feelings on this that I've shared in the Off-Topic thread, and will probably rehash a bit in this thread, but my overarching concern is this: I don't want Commander games to be some weird soup of IPs. It feels hollow and cheap. I will not, however, be so self-righteous or childish as to turn down a game because a player uses these cards. Plenty of players are excited about this and I don't begrudge them; I just don't like that they exist in the first place.

So what say you, Nexus? What are your thoughts on Universes Beyond and the integration of other IPs in black bordered Magic, especially as it relates to Commander?

[folding_music]

after having thought about this for another day I decided I only wanted to see other-universe properties if they're on custom cards. These ones are designed to seep primarily into casual play so I kinda resent being right in the path of an unavoidable crossover. These cards'll burst into commander not only through willing adopters but also via people who love to goldfish their decks, whose resistance to the flavour bleed will gradually be undermined by their need to be optimal; there'll be Universe Beyond cards in the top 300 staples list and in every playgroup's decks in a few years, whether you like them or not, and you can't reasonably refuse to play against people who run 'em.

I don't think these cards are a *catastrophe*; mainly I find it distasteful that they're official. If someone showed up with a solo-developed deck of custom cards based around Morrowind or whatever I would probably be interested in playing against them, but a game vs a deck of officially-printed Elder Scrolls M:TG cards would feel like filling out one long homogenic geeky survey about braaaaands.

For my part this sorta encourages me to only buy older cards, and to try and somehow push for formats where custom cards are welcome. There's already enough official cards, I'll never own them all, so by declaring everything from this year onward off-limit I don't actually lose very much.

[Wallycaine]

Real quick, where are you getting the info that 40K will get a booster release? They specifically called out commander decks for 40k, but made no mention of a booster release for it, as opposed to the nebulous "Lord of the Rings Product" that is supposed to be a booster release.

Anyways, I think people are massively overestimating the impact these will have. Consider this: Every year, 4 standard sets come out. Over the course of 2 years, they're introducing 1 actual full set of another, non-Hasbro IP, and 1 set of commander decks. Even if we assume that's going to be a normal year, rather than a big rollout, that's less than 20% of the total cards they're releasing for just 2022. Will some make an impact? Sure, but it's going to be a handful of cards, especially when weighed against the literal decades of magic IP. For the most part, unless someone specifically focuses on prioritizing those cards (presumably because they like the setting), it's going to be a drop in the ocean as far as the card pool is concerned. It's not going to be an IP soup, it's going to be an IP spice, at best. Once they're out for a bit, I'd be extremely surprised if the average 99 ends up with even 1-2 cards from these sets. Which is okay, that's how things go for your average set anyways.

Either way, I really love the idea. It's a great way to keep attracting new players, which is eternally important for the game's health. I'm really interested to see what other groups they can rope into them, and how famous characters get translated to card form.

[RxPhantom]

Real quick, where are you getting the info that 40K will get a booster release? They specifically called out commander decks for 40k, but made no mention of a booster release for it, as opposed to the nebulous "Lord of the Rings Product" that is supposed to be a booster release.

Shoot. I was certain that I had read that somewhere, but now I can't find it so I must've made a mistake. I edited the original post. Thanks!

[Wallycaine]

Real quick, where are you getting the info that 40K will get a booster release? They specifically called out commander decks for 40k, but made no mention of a booster release for it, as opposed to the nebulous "Lord of the Rings Product" that is supposed to be a booster release.

Shoot. I was certain that I had read that somewhere, but now I can't find it so I must've made a mistake. I edited the original post. Thanks!

No problem, just wanted to make sure I hadn't missed something. I think not all of the releases being full booster product sets is an important thing to keep in mind. Some are going to be small handfuls of cards, ala Walking Dead (Hopefully with a different/additional form of distribution), where others are going to be full sets, with everything in between. But I hope that helps alleviate some of the worry that these are going to flood the market: 2 full sets in a year would certainly be a lot, but 1 full set and set of commander decks will have about the same impact as, say, Ikoria or Strixhaven. Think about how many Ikoria cards you see around the table these days. Certainly some, but not so many as to make it feel like Ikoria soup, right?

[Hermes_]

@DirkGently the phrase you're looking for is "cross-promotional"

Cross-promotion is a form of marketing promotion where customers of one product or service are targeted with promotion of a related product.

[Krishnath]

I think the LotR's set while having some impact on Commander (unless the people in charge decide to just ban the Universes Beyond products, which I highly doubt), it will at least fit the flavor of MTG (I.e. Fantasy).

But the thing is, each play group can always Rule 0 the product if they feel they distract to much. My playgroup did it with the Walking Dead cards (not that any of us wanted them to begin with), and we have discussed doing it with Warhammer 40k as well. We are excited about the LotR product though, mostly because it is based on the urexample of high fantasy that modern fantasy is based on.

Basically, if you have a regular play group, talk with them about each product once the product in the Universes Beyond line is announced and come to a joint decision on whether or not you want to allow that product in your group.

[TheGildedGoose]

[TheAmericanSpirit]

Not a fan of this UNIVERSE BEYOND stuff. But if this is the way we're going, there's nothing I can do about it aside from refrain from purchase. And I will, unless they print broken stuff to push boxes. At that point, I will assess whether I want to drink koolaid or find a new hobby. Oil painting has always sounded nice.

[pokken]

The thing that kinda weirds me out about making commander decks is that commander is probably the hardest format in magic to learn in. The card pool is probably 50x as big as any format.

So I suspect that by making commander decks they're getting the overlap of the venn diagram of "Commander players" and "40k players" instead of expanding into 40k players who don't play magic. It's really overwhelming to just start playing commander.

I think brawl decks might be more suited to this kinda demographic, where the game's a lot simpler and you don't have to manhandle a 100 card pile as a brand new card game player.

[Legend]

". . . the loud messaging on the internet and the desires of the majority . . . do not always line up."
- Mark Rosewater, concerning IP crossovers

They publish this kind of PR BS but historically capitulate to spam bots when they confirm Hasbro's bias or when Hasbro wants to virtue signal in the hopes of appeasing their CCP overlords profiting. Double standards or no standards? Either way, MaRo has officially become a corporate tool.

[Krishnath]

The thing that kinda weirds me out about making commander decks is that commander is probably the hardest format in magic to learn in. The card pool is probably 50x as big as any format.

So I suspect that by making commander decks they're getting the overlap of the venn diagram of "Commander players" and "40k players" instead of expanding into 40k players who don't play magic. It's really overwhelming to just start playing commander.

I think brawl decks might be more suited to this kinda demographic, where the game's a lot simpler and you don't have to manhandle a 100 card pile as a brand new card game player.

What's funny is that WotC have done research on the subject and found that most new players start learning the game by playing Commander. People want to play what their friends are playing, and Commander is the most popular format by far. This is also why they made last year "the year of commander". And while I don't know how people are where you live, but most Commander players here are very patient with newer players, and often gives them tips to improve their decks, some even give the never players a few older cards to expand their collections.

[Ruiner]

Personally I don't mind this stuff at all. I've never been particularly invested in the storyline of MTG, and since WotC got rid of the block structure, they don't seem super into fleshing out a lot of their newer worlds either.

I haven't played 40k for years now (played 2nd through 4th edition) but I could dig some sweet chaos demons in various decks. Rakdos the Defiler is practically a Bloodthirster (or D&D Balor) anyway.

I can personally dig mixing fantasy and sci-fi IPs to some degree. MTG is based on various vastly different realms and planes mixing. Who is to say planes couldn't be centuries ahead of each other in technological advancements?

Planescape has always been my favorite D&D setting so maybe I'm just more likely to be down with something like this.

Let's get my Zurgo a chainsword and powerfist.

[5colorsrainbow]

I personally don't see myself building any commander decks around outside IP. One of the reason I building my decks is try and have expression of each of the colors/color combos which is tied to magic. Maybe if they get an IP I really like and its fun to play, but otherwise I've never really been into it (even seeing customs cards and such).

I'm very mixed on the whole thing. I do think their is a risk of "diluting" the game and do kinda wish they where silver boarder or all re-skins like they did with Ikoria BUT if this can draw in more people I always wanna saw that will be healthier for the game and community in the first place. Magic has a lot of trouble getting new people for a number of reasons, both from the players/community, the company and even the game itself. Anything that can help people get over that hurdle is great and will hopefully get them into magic own lore and flavor.

Two thing i'm happy about is this is suppose to be a separate thing and won't be taking away from the typical magic stuff and the outside IP isn't canon. The only place we will see gandalf and Teferi hanging out in the card which I already have to let flavor reasoning go to a point.

[NGW]

My favorite deck is my Godzilla, King of the Monsters deck so I'd be a bit hypocritical to be opposed to these.

Even setting that aside I'm pretty alright with them, to an extent. My biggest issue with TWD SL bs was it being a Secret Lair, a product I already have been VERY outspoken against as disgusting and predatory. So making mechanically unique cards that are playable in not just EDH but Legacy and (to a lesser extent) Vintage available in that fashion was wrong.

So by making these into commander decks you can just go down to Target and pick up (as will be the case with the 40k set) or an expansion you can buy packs of like any other set from said Target or your LGS (as seems to be the case with LotR) it removes my one big issue with the last go at this.

Now, turning this into Mugen: TCG edition definitely leaves an odd taste in my mouth. On the one hand, I do think that it's gonna be pretty awesome getting to play with iconic characters or creatures from other franchises that I have long been a fan of or possibly being exposed to ones I may not be as familiar with. Like I said, my favorite deck is my Godzilla deck because I grew up on old tokusatsu and kaiju films and shows and as a lifelong Godzilla fan seeing that spill over into my favorite game was just amazing so I get people being excited for them. But I do worry about it diluting the actual Magic aspect of the game. People go on about mixed aesthetics and themes already being baked into the game, and that's true, but they all still felt at home in Magic, they were still Magic. No matter how much you want to argue that "just pretend these are any other plane in Magic", there's a big difference sitting across from Magic's take on Thor or Zeus and sitting across from Colonel Sanders and Darth Vader.

Again, I'm not against entirely, and I know my girlfriend was excited when I told her there could very well be an actual MLP set she can play against my decks (and not just the silver bordered charity cards), I don't mind the blend of IPs as much as many. I do have my concerns about it and what it means for the future of Magic as a whole. Give it a few years and other than the basic mechanics the game may very well be unrecognizable.

Edit: All that said I am 100% against them being allowed for tournament play, specifically in regards to Legacy. They should be treated the same as silver bordered cards in that regard, and a big middle finger to MaRo's "people treat silver border as though they aren't real Magic cards" excuse. We're gonna start treating triangle sticker cards as not real cards too then. Come on.

[Lorn Asbord Schutta]

I am more worried about the other IPs. Or rather about those, which I cared already before (as of now only LOTR, but time will tell what UB might bring in the future).

Thing is, every work that has fantastic elements - whether they are explained as advanced science, metaphysical forces or dark secrets hidden from ordinarly observators (SciFi; fantasy; horror) - have some rules behind them, rules that allow those fantastic worlds to be a diffrent ontological beings then our world. At best, those rules are ingrained into worldbuilding and axiology of setting from its very beginning and flawlessly, thus allowing us to find inspiration hidden from our perception or experience how world - and possibly ourselves - would act under diffrent cosmical and metaphysical laws; at worst, it allows for easy boxchecking and simplistic segregating of nuanced concepts.
Magic rather skews towards the latter. It works great for game - where you need or want to adapt multiple, often abstract things into limited number of possible actions one can do with cards - but not that much for fiction. I am worried that for instance Gandalf will turn into another "Legendary Creature - [Maiar or anything they choose instead] Wizard" that for gameplay reasons have to be simplified into something not representing him properly as a character with his own personality, goals and beliefs. For me it cheapens the work used, but not nescessarily the Magic.

Ofcourse, I like Magic - otherwise, why I would bother to even write this in the first place - but mostly as a game. The lore behind is a nice spice, but nothing I would consider substantial. Will Magic become so bland after UB, that I will detest it? Time will tell. It will certainly look much closer to some poor fanfics, but let us be honest - Multiverse was never as well thought as for instance Zelazny's "The Chronicles of Amber".

[Serenade]

Make them all silver border like Ponies: The Galloping OR do them Godzilla-style (but flip the templating of the names). Those two rules are so simple would not impact the base game.

Then I'm fine if they go nuts. They want to make Blade Runner skins for Future Kamigawa with Ryan Gosling and Jared Leto? Fine, whoever is running those cards has to ask to use them (like me with Acornelia, Fashionable Filcher)...or they are just pretty reprints.

[DirkGently]

@DirkGently the phrase you're looking for is "cross-promotional"

Cross-promotion is a form of marketing promotion where customers of one product or service are targeted with promotion of a related product.

Sure, we can call it that.

When I think of most cross-promotional campaigns, I think of putting movie characters on food packaging or in happy meals or whatever, though - you might have to put up with being marketed at briefly, but once you eat the food and throw away the wrapper, it's over and done. Or it's an opt-in situation, like the mountain dew xbox or whatever - you can still buy the regular xbox, and it does the exact same thing. You're not being force-fed the advertisement.

In this case, though, if you want the card there will be no other alternatives. You can play with the cross-promoted version or you can not play the card. And it's not a throw-the-wrapper-away situation either, it's a permanent part of your deck. You're literally putting an advertisement in your deck. And unlike the other things, where the advertisement is ultimately just a skin on a product that's still basically uncompromised, the entirety of what these are is advertisements. They were created to be an ad from the ground up. Selling you a product is in the core of their DNA.

It feels unbelievably gross to me.

Btw the implication that LotR will be a full set, imo, strengthens the chances that I'm right about them including characters from the upcoming Amazon show. They'll have plenty of slots for the old stuff that people actually like, as well as the new thing they're trying to sell. It's a cross-promotional 3-way.

Edit: All that said I am 100% against them being allowed for tournament play, specifically in regards to Legacy. They should be treated the same as silver bordered cards in that regard, and a big middle finger to MaRo's "people treat silver border as though they aren't real Magic cards" excuse. We're gonna start treating triangle sticker cards as not real cards too then. Come on.

I doubt it tbh. I mean I want to hope so, but silver border aren't officially legal - that makes a big difference. People generally want to follow the rules, they don't want to have to ask permission to play their deck (even if 99% of the time people will be fine with it). I remember having long, vicious arguments over the collector's edition cards and whether they were "officially legal" even though almost everyone said they'd be happy to play against them even if they didn't think they were technically legal cards. I know I don't like feeling like my victory was contingent upon bending the rules, so I kinda get it even though I really, really, really wish they were silver-border and/or not officially legal.

Certainly legacy players will play them if they're viable. But I don't think WotC really gives a crap about legacy tbh. As I said earlier, I think legacy and vintage were mostly collateral damage in the effort to ensure these cards are seen as legitimate for commander play, which is what wotc REALLY cares about. Without commander play these things are worthless.

[Treamayne]

Have they officially said these are Black Bordered? Reading the official announcement, ti says they are not silver bordered and that they are not standard legal; but it does not say they are black bordered. I'm sure it's in vein, but I still hope they will have some border other than either silver or black (though I wish it were silver - but that's been contraindicated).

All that said, if this is the future of Magic, it will have to slide down that hill without me. Such a shame to see the game sell out after 27 years of enjoying MtG.

[onering]

This sucks. Furtherer watering down the brand for short term gain will do long term damage. LotR makes some sense, being the granddaddy of modern fantasy, but even that is a step too far for black border imo. DnD is the only one I accept, as its the most compatible with the preestablished tone of magic and can be merged with magic lore (ie, I can buy the world of DnD, which already has a multiverse, being part of the world of MTG, and can see the properties being actively merged down the line, especially since Alpha was itself heavily influenced by DnD).

[Wallycaine]

Have they officially said these are Black Bordered? Reading the official announcement, ti says they are not silver bordered and that they are not standard legal; but it does not say they are black bordered. I'm sure it's in vein, but I still hope they will have some border other than either silver or black (though I wish it were silver - but that's been contraindicated).

All that said, if this is the future of Magic, it will have to slide down that hill without me. Such a shame to see the game sell out after 27 years of enjoying MtG.

When they specifically called out a different frame without calling out a different border, it's pretty much guarenteed they're not going to have a different border. Additionally, Mark has talked about the fact that, due to the reception of silver border cards as "not real cards", they're not doing a different border.

It's unfortunate, but how Silver Border cards get treated makes that move make perfect sense for Wizards. If you want the majority of players to be excited about being able to play your cards, they need to have black borders, because having to ask if you can play your silver borders puts enough extra onus on the player that many decks don't get built (Looks sadly at Syr Cadian, Knight Owl knight deck idea), and many players don't try to play with them.

[Treamayne]

@Wallycaine Thanks for the info...

Too bad they didn't think of this as an opportunity to make all silver bordered more legitimate. That way people who don't want to deal with it can safely ignore it, while players that are excited by the move can embrace more "outside the multiverse" concepts.

Instead, they choose to alienate players that have been a part of the game from the beginning (or near the beginning in my case - started with The Dark) - because cash-grab...

[Wallycaine]

@Wallycaine Thanks for the info...

Too bad they didn't think of this as an opportunity to make all silver bordered more legitimate. That way people who don't want to deal with it can safely ignore it, while players that are excited by the move can embrace more "outside the multiverse" concepts.

Instead, they choose to alienate players that have been a part of the game from the beginning (or near the beginning in my case - started with The Dark) - because cash-grab...

I mean, there's only so much Wizards can do about perception. And when they come out with new products, they have to respond to what is, rather than what they want it to be. The very fact that you feel like you can "safely ignore" the products if they're silver border is exactly the attitude that makes it so putting them in silver border is a non-starter.

[DirkGently]

1 full set and set of commander decks will have about the same impact as, say, Ikoria or Strixhaven. Think about how many Ikoria cards you see around the table these days. Certainly some, but not so many as to make it feel like Ikoria soup, right?

...except that Ikoria is a set + commander set for ONE year. This is going to keep happening. You'd have to compare it to ALL the commander sets and ALL the (pick a quarter) sets.

Welcome to hell kiddos.

The very fact that you feel like you can "safely ignore" the products if they're silver border is exactly the attitude that makes it so putting them in silver border is a non-starter.

Exactly. They claim that they want you to be able to pick and choose what you want to buy, but in reality they very much want you to feel you have to buy these to keep up, even if you don't like the premise at all. Letting customers actually be selective goes against their corporate interests.

[Wallycaine]

1 full set and set of commander decks will have about the same impact as, say, Ikoria or Strixhaven. Think about how many Ikoria cards you see around the table these days. Certainly some, but not so many as to make it feel like Ikoria soup, right?

...except that Ikoria is a set + commander set for ONE year. This is going to keep happening. You'd have to compare it to ALL the commander sets and ALL the (pick a quarter) sets.

Welcome to hell kiddos.

Okay, lets extrapolate it out. 5 years from now, there will presumably (assuming, again, that this is just a normal year and not a particularly big rollout) be 5 whole entire sets of this. Whoop di do dah. How many cards from the last 5 spring sets are actually in your decks? That's Shadows over Innistrad (but not Eldritch Moon), Amonkhet (but not Hour of Devastation), Dominaria, War of the Spark, and Ikoria? Looking through your Pheldigrif deck, I found 4 total cards originating from those sets. Zirlan had 3. Kaervek has 5 (and that's including a pair of lands). Not exactly hellish to deal with 3-5 total cards, across 100. And that's after 5 years of continuous releases of these crossover sets, you might have to accept running 3-5 "sub par" choices to avoid dealing with them. And you'd probably expect to see them from someone else once every couple games? Again, welcome to hell seems to be overselling it, if we're looking at that sorta volume in the distant year 2027.