[mtgnexus] Random Card of the Day - The SHM Lieges

[pokken]

How about legendary dual-type pain land?

sure do that too :D more fetchables for me to Life from the Loam

[Mookie]

The original duals are almost never worth it, IMO - the monetary cost to upgrade your weakest land into one will pretty much always be better spent on upgrading something else unless you're getting into actual cEDH territory. I'm willing to give a pass to people that have been playing for ages and bought their duals when they were cheaper... but for everyone else, I consider them to be gratuitous pay-to-win.

They are a meaningful upgrade if you care about basic land types though. The printing of surveil lands, snow duals, and other typed duals has made it possible to support Emeria, the Sky Ruin and similar cards in multicolor decks, but usually only in ally-colored decks. Enemy-colored decks still lack the cycling and tango duals, which make it hard to have a fully-typed manabase without shelling out for shocks and original duals. Simultaneously, the fact that you can now support Emeria / Valakut / etc. in multicolor decks may be driving up the price of duals and shocks. It does feel a bit odd - I like the idea of cards that card about basic land types as a way to support monocolor decks, but all the new typed duals means that multicolor decks are also getting the benefit. Maybe we need WotC to start explicitly printing support for basics? Maybe a new Gauntlet of Power effect? Hmmm...

[DirkGently]

Just use proxies if it's important to you.

I love old expensive cards. I think they add some really cool texture to the game that doesn't exist in any other, at least not in the same way as magic. They're like ancient relics of the past, real indiana jones %$#% at your local card store. When I tell my non-magic-playing friends about how expensive black lotus is, they always get really interested. I just think they're cool. If they were reprinted into the dirt and you saw them all the time, it wouldn't be all that interesting.

I think legacy/vintage players have really gotten the short end of the stick on the RL front, because it is a huge barrier to entry. Those formats are dead because of their price tag. And in those formats, a few percentage points makes the difference between top-tier and run-of-the-mill, so second best just won't do.

But commander...seriously, commander players are the biggest, most entitled whiners. You don't need dual lands. Fixing is so insanely good these days. ABUR duals are completely unnecessary. Dual lands are a 0.1% improvement to the power of your deck. You didn't lose because you don't have ABUR duals - your opponents didn't have ABUR duals either. You lost because you played badly.

I know what it is, because I have it too - but it's stupid. It's just OCD brain worms that can't be satisfied until your deck is 100% perfect, and ABUR duals are the best dual-typed lands. Which, y'know, fine, I do understand that annoyance. But the way commander players go on about dual lands, like they're constantly losing games because of their lack of dual lands. It's ridiculous. Shocklands are 99% as good as ABU duals and they cost single digits. Trilands can be better than ABUR duals in a lot of contexts. Surveil lands can as well. You've got so many easy replacements that will have a negligible impact on how your deck plays.

If you want to complain about something, at least complain about Mana Crypt. There's no replacement for mana crypt, it's expensive, and it's the best card in the format. Except oh wait, that's not on the reserved list, so it doesn't feed into your persecution narrative.

(I want to make it clear I'm not talking about anybody in this thread, but commander players in the abstract - mostly on the EDH subreddit)

I hate the RL.

As someone without a job and a $70K magic collection, I love the RL. Feels good knowing that I've got a nest egg I could fall back onto if something unexpected happened in my life.

I think if WotC wanted to undo the reserve list, they should have done it when duals were $30, not $300. At this point, undoing the reserved list could put a lot of people into real financial jeopardy.

I consider them to be gratuitous pay-to-win.

I don't think this logic holds up unless you're already playing very high-powered. Outside of that sphere, your deck is as strong as you feel like making it. You could make it better by buying duals, sure, but you could also make it stronger by buying $2 combo pieces.

[onering]

The original duals are almost never worth it, IMO - the monetary cost to upgrade your weakest land into one will pretty much always be better spent on upgrading something else unless you're getting into actual cEDH territory. I'm willing to give a pass to people that have been playing for ages and bought their duals when they were cheaper... but for everyone else, I consider them to be gratuitous pay-to-win.

They are a meaningful upgrade if you care about basic land types though. The printing of surveil lands, snow duals, and other typed duals has made it possible to support Emeria, the Sky Ruin and similar cards in multicolor decks, but usually only in ally-colored decks. Enemy-colored decks still lack the cycling and tango duals, which make it hard to have a fully-typed manabase without shelling out for shocks and original duals. Simultaneously, the fact that you can now support Emeria / Valakut / etc. in multicolor decks may be driving up the price of duals and shocks. It does feel a bit odd - I like the idea of cards that card about basic land types as a way to support monocolor decks, but all the new typed duals means that multicolor decks are also getting the benefit. Maybe we need WotC to start explicitly printing support for basics? Maybe a new Gauntlet of Power effect? Hmmm...

It's one of the biggest differences between paper and mtgo. Duals are like $5 for the most expensive one and like $1 for Plateau

[folding_music]

im dragging my feet on buying a Hedge Maze and a Waterlogged Grove, please don't show me pictures of REAL LAND

[Dunadain]

If you want to complain about something, at least complain about Mana Crypt. There's no replacement for mana crypt, it's expensive, and it's the best card in the format. Except oh wait, that's not on the reserved list, so it doesn't feed into your persecution narrative.

Have I gone too long without complaining about mana crypt as well?

I will not rest until there is a printing of each card out there for less than a $20!

[DirkGently]

I will not rest until there is a printing of each card out there for less than a $20!

I will say, setting aside cards like the ABUR duals (because I do think legacy and vintage players have legitimate reasons to complain about the prices on those killing their formats), I don't think they should ever reprint stuff like Juzám Djinn. Even as someone who doesn't own one, the main cool thing about that card is being super old and rare (also the art slays). Reprinting it would just make it boring chaff.

Personally I think it's rad that magic has mythical ancient relics. The 1/1 ring might be worth more, but seeing a black lotus gives real "we are simply passing through history. This IS history" vibes.

[Dunadain]

Old printings will still be worth money.

[DirkGently]

Old printings will still be worth money.

Hard to say. I'm sure most old cards would be worth something, but there's still a pretty wide range.

Birds of Paradise is a very popular card - current price for the revised edition is $15. They'd have to reprint duals a lot before revised duals were that cheap but I think it's conceivable. I imagine alpha/beta would hold value % better since those are more collector-focused than playable-focused, but they'd probably lose more value in absolute terms since they're starting a lot higher.

juzam djinn i have no idea. Is it mostly collectors or oldschool format keeping the price high? Would oldschool players allow reprints anyway? I don't know who a reprint of that card would benefit (unless it's oldschool players on a budget who do allow reprints?)

Reprinting dual lands would benefit legacy/vintage players for sure.

Commander players, not really. They're a marginal power increase, decks are intentionally weakened already, the vast majority aren't using them so it's an even playing field anyway, and nearly everyone allows proxies.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

I'm cool with largely meaningless status symbols. You drive a Benz to work, I drive a Toyota, we both get there all the same. In the context of commander, these are like driving a Maserati and that's just fine for those who care that much.

It IS killing Legacy and Vintage though. In those formats, having to throw 3+ grand at a manabase is a prerequisite now and that blows. I've always wanted to own a bonafide Legacy deck in paper (specifically Canadian Threshold, an archetype I have seen evolve since I first saw it in 2006) but at this point in my life and with prices what they are, I'd rather put that money towards a down payment on a house.

[Lifeless]

As someone who absolutely loves Legacy and Vintage it's always been very sad to me that become progressively more and more inaccessible over time. They are fun formats if frequently absurd and Wizards lack of care for them is unfortunate.

[3drinks]

Saturday, April 27th 2024; Mithril Coat

[3drinks]

But commander...seriously, commander players are the biggest, most entitled whiners. You don't need dual lands. Fixing is so insanely good these days. ABUR duals are completely unnecessary. Dual lands are a 0.1% improvement to the power of your deck. You didn't lose because you don't have ABUR duals - your opponents didn't have ABUR duals either. You lost because you played badly.

I know what it is, because I have it too - but it's stupid. It's just OCD brain worms that can't be satisfied until your deck is 100% perfect, and ABUR duals are the best dual-typed lands. Which, y'know, fine, I do understand that annoyance. But the way commander players go on about dual lands, like they're constantly losing games because of their lack of dual lands. It's ridiculous. Shocklands are 99% as good as ABU duals and they cost single digits. Trilands can be better than ABUR duals in a lot of contexts. Surveil lands can as well. You've got so many easy replacements that will have a negligible impact on how your deck plays.

This reads an awful lot like the Smogon community obsessing over a few marginal basis points in the IVs of their pokemon in competitive battling. Not a slight, just the nature of this reads all too familiar. "Of course I didn't win, I don't have the full perfect 31 IVs in my Tyranitar!" Like no, bruh, you lost cause you switched into that fighting move, but go on king, wear your crown.

It's one of the biggest differences between paper and mtgo. Duals are like $5 for the most expensive one and like $1 for Plateau

Right? Iirc @aliciaofthevast got her Scrubland there for like 0.75tix. Was a crazy thing to process ah ha.

I will say, setting aside cards like the ABUR duals (because I do think legacy and vintage players have legitimate reasons to complain about the prices on those killing their formats), I don't think they should ever reprint stuff like Juzám Djinn. Even as someone who doesn't own one, the main cool thing about that card is being super old and rare (also the art slays). Reprinting it would just make it boring chaff.

We already got a Juzam remix, just colour shifted. Ravenous Giant is the actual colour shifted thing, but way, way before then we had Balduvian Horde|all/Pillaging Horde. Horde was a staple during Alliances, but the giant made absolutely zero splash anywhere. I was nostalgic for a colour shifted Juzam, at least. Definitely unplayable these days anyway.

It IS killing Legacy and Vintage though. In those formats, having to throw 3+ grand at a manabase is a prerequisite now and that blows. I've always wanted to own a bonafide Legacy deck in paper (specifically Canadian Threshold, an archetype I have seen evolve since I first saw it in 2006) but at this point in my life and with prices what they are, I'd rather put that money towards a down payment on a house.

Why do you think I play Burn. Pauper, Modern, Legacy, I can pull off whatever format. No duals (or wasteland, even) required.

[Hermes_]

Old printings will still be worth money.

Hard to say. I'm sure most old cards would be worth something, but there's still a pretty wide range.

Alpha sol ring still fetches a high price

_

If i remember lotr/hobbit correctly, the mithril coat in the story handed down from Bilbo to Fordo was made for an elven prince meaning it's someone's hand me down or even baby clothes lol,

[Serenade]

A popular theory is that Legolas was that elven prince!

[Cyax]

Mithril Coat is great in commander-centric builds, and it's even better if the deck happens to run destroying board-wipes.

The ability to flash equip the card makes the card work like a situational protectional spell, which makes the card way better than Darksteel Plate.

That said, I don't run this card since the strength of the card does not justify the price of the card or the inherent weakness of putting your eggs in one basket.

[folding_music]

it being indestructible asks yr opponents to find their exile-based removal - good vs rapid hybridization and other things like that
deeply boring though. good with Zalto, Fire Giant Duke? =P

if I'm not playing blue I just expect my commanders to die on sight and have been moving towards ones with good etb effects. i love all these

[Mookie]

I remember when everyone ran Lightning Greaves in their deck to protect their commander, and Darksteel Plate was also a popular inclusion. Mithril Coat seems like a nice upgrade if you're interested in the latter, but I'm not sure if it still makes the cut. They're both fine if you're specifically interested in indestructible or equipment, but I think that most decks have better options if they just want to protect their commanders from removal - stuff like Teferi's Protection and Heroic Intervention protect commanders while also having a ton of extra utility. I also generally have mixed feelings about proactive protection effects - your opponents will often just hold onto their removal spells until they have the combination needed to dismantle your layers of protection.

Still, if you are looking for indestructible, Mithril Coat seems like a great option - it stops one destroy effect, then sticks around until your opponents find a new answer. Indestructible artifacts are also pretty tricky to deal with - while creature exile is pretty common, it is less common for people to go out of their way to exile artifacts and enchantments. This means you are likely to have the opportunity to protect your commander a second time if it is removed.

[Guardman]

As someone who absolutely loves Legacy and Vintage it's always been very sad to me that become progressively more and more inaccessible over time. They are fun formats if frequently absurd and Wizards lack of care for them is unfortunate.

I have some well-worn revised Bayou that I got almost 20 years ago for $20 a pop for my Legacy Rock deck. I love Legacy, but it is really unaffordable. Plus, as much as I hate to admit it, its changed so much that I'm not if my old Legacy Rock deck would even work if I made some modern tweaks. Don't play them in Commander even in decks I could because why play with such expensive cards for a few tenths of a percentage point.

[DirkGently]

It's a solid card, though it's not quite as good as I think it reads. Non-destroy removal is pretty common, and sitting with 3 mana up is awkward. Eventually you just want to fire it off rather than hold up the mana, and then you're wide open to get blown out.

So I don't think I'd run it in hardly any deck that wasn't already playing, or at least seriously considering, Darksteel Plate. It's an upgrade, but not a big one.

Old printings will still be worth money.

Hard to say. I'm sure most old cards would be worth something, but there's still a pretty wide range.

Alpha sol ring still fetches a high price

Alpha versions of duals would probably still be worth a lot - hard to say exactly how much, but I'd be surprised if they didn't drop at least a bit.

Revised dual lands would likely crater if they got reprinted, though. Revised sol ring can be had for less than $20 last I checked, same for BoP (the most played revised-printed rare).

[Hermes_]

A popular theory is that Legolas was that elven prince!

That's the one i was thinking of

[aliciaofthevast]

Indestructible artifacts are also pretty tricky to deal with - while creature exile is pretty common, it is less common for people to go out of their way to exile artifacts and enchantments. This means you are likely to have the opportunity to protect your commander a second time if it is removed.

You mean people still aren't on Deglamer and Unravel the Aether yet? I thought we were past this whole not respecting indestructible thing. Welp 😳

[onering]

People do still run Return to Dust for that sweet 2for1

[Mookie]

Indestructible artifacts are also pretty tricky to deal with - while creature exile is pretty common, it is less common for people to go out of their way to exile artifacts and enchantments. This means you are likely to have the opportunity to protect your commander a second time if it is removed.

You mean people still aren't on Deglamer and Unravel the Aether yet? I thought we were past this whole not respecting indestructible thing. Welp 😳

Looking at the most commonly played artifact removal, the ten most common pieces of spot removal are:

• Beast Within
• Generous Gift
• Boseiju, Who Endures
• Vandalblast
• Reclamation Sage
• Anguished Unmaking
• Abrade
• Nature's Claim
• Krosan Grip
• Putrefy

Of these, only Anguished Unmaking exiles. The rest are all destroy effects. Resculpt and Return to Dust are in the top 20, and Utter End is in the top 30. Either way, the vast majority of removal spells that are in decks don't hit indestructible artifacts - most people aren't willing to pay a premium for them, presumably because there aren't many indestructible artifacts that see play.

In contrast, the most common creature removal does exile - Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, Anguished Unmaking, Deadly Rollick, and Reality Shift all can deal with indestructible creatures. I will hypothesize that this is both because indestructible creatures are more common, and because creature recursion is more common. You don't want to Doom Blade something scary only for it to immediately be brought back by Animate Dead or whatever.

[3drinks]

Sunday, April 28th 2024; Momentary Blink|dmr

How's this hold up these days? Yeah like Ephemerate exists for less colour req but it needs to have two targets. At least this just chills in the yard waiting right?