Unreleased and New Card Discussion

[pokken]

Toxrill, the Corrosive definitely will be strong when it lands. I'm skeptical it'll be toxic for most playgroups, though. It takes a while to ramp up to actually killing big stuff, and all the effects go away as soon as it dies (barring, I suppose, any slugs it already created). To me, it strikes as the right power level for a 7 mana commander to actually see play. It won't instantly win games, but will have huge effects if you don't deal with them.

How long exactly do you think it takes -4/-4 per turn cycle to start killing stuff? How many x/4 bodies do you have on a table at a given time?

[Wallycaine]

Toxrill, the Corrosive definitely will be strong when it lands. I'm skeptical it'll be toxic for most playgroups, though. It takes a while to ramp up to actually killing big stuff, and all the effects go away as soon as it dies (barring, I suppose, any slugs it already created). To me, it strikes as the right power level for a 7 mana commander to actually see play. It won't instantly win games, but will have huge effects if you don't deal with them.

How long exactly do you think it takes -4/-4 per turn cycle to start killing stuff? How many x/4 bodies do you have on a table at a given time?

How many creatures with that large of an effect do you see making it through a full turn cycle? Something that waited until the beginning of your next upkeep to kill stuff would be rated as "taking a while to ramp up", and that's how long it takes Toxrill to start killing x/4's that are on the battlefield when he comes out.

I'd rate Toxrill much closer to Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite in terms of effect on the game than anything else, with the additional caveat that while the ceiling is higher, the floor is lower. Elesh will kill the Ravenous Chupacabra that comes in to kill her, Toxrill... won't.

[pokken]

How many creatures with that large of an effect do you see making it through a full turn cycle? Something that waited until the beginning of your next upkeep to kill stuff would be rated as "taking a while to ramp up", and that's how long it takes Toxrill to start killing x/4's that are on the battlefield when he comes out.

I'd rate Toxrill much closer to Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite in terms of effect on the game than anything else, with the additional caveat that while the ceiling is higher, the floor is lower. Elesh will kill the Ravenous Chupacabra that comes in to kill her, Toxrill... won't.

If Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite drew you cards every time a creature died, and could be in the command zone and had a UW color identity, sure!

This card is going to be in the command zone, and can be defended with a raft of free blue counterspells, or just reanimated over and over again to accrue value.

I would bet 100% that if a deck is playing this commander they will stick it eventually unless they suck at designing decks

(And now I want to play UW Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite with card draw attached to it, that sounds "fun"!)

[BeneTleilax]

A deck that starts doing its thing on turn 9-10 isn't going to break games. UB is not great at ramping reliably, unless you've dedicated a bunch of slots to get Coffers online, and people will look at Toxrill in the command zone and try to sabotage you. Yeah, Toxrill will be annoying with a counterspell-type build, but it's not going to be terribly strong. Also, because it's rather cumbersome, I predict more people will try to do slug tribal or other silliness rather then optimize the hell out of this guy.

[duducrash]

I've been toying with the idea of a removal.deck/control for a while. I have a Kess, Dissident Mage non-combo deck. But tbh Toxrill, the Corrosive peaked my interest big time. I'll try to build something heavily focused on removal and removal payoffs. Maybe toxrill itelf, maybe Rayami, First of the Fallen maybe Tasigur, the Golden Fang . Seems fun

[BeneTleilax]

I'm liking the voltron theme of the spirits this set. I don't know if it's that good, but auras that also function as creatures incentivizes strategies other than just piling them all one the same dude every game.

[DirkGently]

I would bet 100% that if a deck is playing this commander they will stick it eventually unless they suck at designing decks

Sure, they'll stick it eventually (I mean, maybe, they do have 3 opponents, but let's suppose). Meanwhile other players have enacted gameplans that win the game much faster than a 7-drop that sticks "eventually"...and then still doesn't remotely win the game single-handedly. I mean, compare to Narset, a 6-drop that protects herself and usually wins the game if she untaps. I certainly know what I'd rather play against. Not to say he's my favorite design, but he's nowhere close to the worst imo.

Damn the text on Toxrill is so clunky though. How many times can you write "you don't control" on a card? Guess they were really concerned about the Toxrill mirror.

[plushpenguin]

If you really want stuff dead fast, copy the slug with anything that copies legendaries. Permanent -4/-4 to all your opponents stuff on end step.

[BeneTleilax]

If you really want stuff dead fast, copy the slug with anything that copies legendaries. Permanent -4/-4 to all your opponents stuff on end step.

11 mana and two cards can do a lot worse. Dreadfeast Demon is a cool card to read, but it seems much worse than Descent of the Dragons in practice.

[pokken]

I would bet 100% that if a deck is playing this commander they will stick it eventually unless they suck at designing decks

Sure, they'll stick it eventually (I mean, maybe, they do have 3 opponents, but let's suppose). Meanwhile other players have enacted gameplans that win the game much faster than a 7-drop that sticks "eventually"...and then still doesn't remotely win the game single-handedly. I mean, compare to Narset, a 6-drop that protects herself and usually wins the game if she untaps. I certainly know what I'd rather play against. Not to say he's my favorite design, but he's nowhere close to the worst imo.

Damn the text on Toxrill is so clunky though. How many times can you write "you don't control" on a card? Guess they were really concerned about the Toxrill mirror.

Winning the game when you untap, we have established, is fine. Grinding out a victory where no one gets creatures ever again and you slowly win with slug beat downs is substantially different.

Say, animar vs. Erayo.

There are tens of commanders who I almost always win triumphantly when they untap but ones that drag the game out on lockdown for six more turns are real design dooks.

[kirkusjones]

What about Doug the Slug is blue? Seems way more BG or just straight black to me…

[RedCheese]

Necroduality

oh my oh my oh my.

Double the Zombies. Double the fun

[Venedrex]

Necroduality

oh my oh my oh my.

Double the Zombies. Double the fun

Help, there is a massive hole in my wallet. I've bought two precons in as many months, I can't... but braiiiinnsss. I should have probably already bought this card ten minutes ago.
50 dollars here we come.

[Mookie]

Howlpack's Piper is very interesting. I've been wanting to run Elvish Piper in my Samut deck for a while, but have held off due its price (it could really use another reprint). A new version that can also generate some card advantage with day/night is certainly worth consideration. Sorcery-speed activation is a significant downside though.
Cemetery Prowler looks targeted at other formats, but still interesting - cost reduction effects are quite solid, and it brings along a bit of incidental grave hate too.
Necroduality is a zombie-only Reflections of Littjara (although it triggers on ETB instead of cast, which is certainly relevant for the many self-recursive zombies). Seems good, albeit narrow.

[DirkGently]

Winning the game when you untap, we have established, is fine.

Who established that? I don't agree to that. %$#% narset.

Grinding out a victory where no one gets creatures ever again and you slowly win with slug beat downs is substantially different.

Say, animar vs. Erayo.

There are tens of commanders who I almost always win triumphantly when they untap but ones that drag the game out on lockdown for six more turns are real design dooks.

Meh, disagree. And it's not like the slug is a hard lock on anything except keeping small-medium bodies on the board. Removal fixes it. Making very large boys fixes it. It doesn't stop etbs, it doesn't stop hasty beatdowns, it doesn't even stop eot token beatdowns, and it's all completely telegraphed from the CZ. Plus it costs 7, so any aggro deck is just going to beat them down before they get the commander online.

I mean, will there be boring unpleasant games at casual tables where nobody knows what the cards do, and when it comes down they all go "oh, I guess I shouldn't have played ten creatures and/or should have run more than three removal spells"? Sure. But for anyone with knowledge of the game, I don't see it really rising to being problematic, any more than plenty of other cards. I mean ffs, Mageta the Lion is a repeatable board wipe, anyone running into problems with that guy?

And Animar can go die in a fire. I'd rather play against slug boi a thousand times more than animar.

[5colorsrainbow]

What about Doug the Slug is blue? Seems way more BG or just straight black to me…

Many slugs are aquatic.

[pokken]

Winning the game when you untap, we have established, is fine.

Who established that? I don't agree to that. %$#% narset.

Grinding out a victory where no one gets creatures ever again and you slowly win with slug beat downs is substantially different.

Say, animar vs. Erayo.

There are tens of commanders who I almost always win triumphantly when they untap but ones that drag the game out on lockdown for six more turns are real design dooks.

Meh, disagree. And it's not like the slug is a hard lock on anything except keeping small-medium bodies on the board. Removal fixes it. Making very large boys fixes it. It doesn't stop etbs, it doesn't stop hasty beatdowns, it doesn't even stop eot token beatdowns, and it's all completely telegraphed from the CZ. Plus it costs 7, so any aggro deck is just going to beat them down before they get the commander online.

I mean, will there be boring unpleasant games at casual tables where nobody knows what the cards do, and when it comes down they all go "oh, I guess I shouldn't have played ten creatures and/or should have run more than three removal spells"? Sure. But for anyone with knowledge of the game, I don't see it really rising to being problematic, any more than plenty of other cards. I mean ffs, Mageta the Lion is a repeatable board wipe, anyone running into problems with that guy?

And Animar can go die in a fire. I'd rather play against slug boi a thousand times more than animar.

It's implied by cards like zur, animar, narset, winota, etc. etc. being legal that the commander community at large seems fine with that crap You have conversations about how hard you want to go and that determines what kinda deck you play in terms of how fast it can finish the game. For me, I tend to agree with you that whackamole commanders that have to die every time they hit the board are not fun experiences, but I can usually just avoid those people because their power level is not where I play.

That's quite separate from playing cards like Humility or even Grave Pact spam (which I have found to be not super enjoyed by most people:P) and especially so if they're in the command zone.

I certainly don't think Toxrill, the Corrosive is bannable, I just think it's a really unpleasant design that isn't going to add anything except a lot of unpleasant games. YMMV

I'll agree that there are ways to stop it, though having to have haste, or a creature that can still be threatening after getting -4/-4, or being big enough to swing through a 7/7 feels more niche, and while it does lose to Purphoros, God of the Forge effects I'm not sure we should be encouraging that =)

The big thing I'll call out is that Mageta costs 9 total and does nothing until it untaps and has to discard 2 cards and is a 3/3, and is mono white, so that feels like a pretty bad comparison. Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite is a more decent comparison from @Wallycaine but even that is rather lacking (since there's no blue in the color identity, no attached CA, and no ability to deal with fatties over time).

This is a pretty unique effect in the command zone.

[benjameenbear]

Gonna pop in here to add my support of Toxrill, the Corrosive's power level and add in the observation that his Slug creation trigger occurs when ANY creature with a slime counter dies. Any token decks that you're up against almost immediately spawns an army of Slugs if there's any amount of 1/1 tokens just by going to your end step, which is no joke when going up against any Token strategies. Toxrill simultaneously destroys your opponents resources with no subsequent mana investment AND creates board presence via Slug tokens that you can then convert into ACTUAL cards with Toxrill's trigger. I agree with @pokken's analysis of the card in terms of power level and relative unpleasantness and happily throw my support to the Slug Overlord as a dedicated Dimir mage. I think it's an EXCELLENT addition to the suite of Dimir bombs and look forward to pre-ordering my copy.

To make sure the horse is thoroughly beaten (why did this expression ever come about? eh...), it's a great Reanimation target and hits a HUGE swath of playable creatures with a constant flattening EVERY turn. If you look at all the recent powerful commanders, most of them have 3-4 toughness. That's most likely just 1 turn cycle to destroy probably the majority of the Commanders you'd play against at a given table as well as most of the powerful utility creatures that people play. Let's take a look over at EDHRec and see what the most popular Commanders are (RIP Golos...): Kenrith, Atraxa, Korvold, Yuriko, and Muldrotha are the top 5. Now, let's look at the average toughness of the 20-ish top-rated creatures in each of those decks in the EDHRec creatures section, Top synergy, etc. :

• Kenrith = Almost 2 exactly
• Atraxa = 2.7
• Korvold = 2.1
• Yuriko = LOL
• Muldrotha = 2.4

Yuriko is immediately irrelevant with an active Toxrill since most Ninjas have toughness 1 or 2 and her trigger is almost entirely negated from just 1 or 2 turns, that's it. Kenrith's creatures almost ALL die with just 1-2 turns. Atraxa needs 3+ turns assuming that her creature base already has some amount of +1/+1 counters on them and can proliferate on her turn to stack up the +1/+1 counters to keep her theme going, but give it 2 full turn cycles and you've most likely crippled her core +1/+1 strategy (planeswalker strategy is obviously different). Muldrotha will probably thank you for putting cards in their 'yard, since the average creature toughness for Muldrotha requires 3 turns for Toxrill to kill the majority of them, but even still Toxrill will eventually outpace Muldrotha's ability to maintain a creature board presence after just 2 full turn cycles. While Korvold is fairly unique in that he's now largely Treasure-focused, Toxrill can still decimate any creature presence Korvold tries to maintain after just 2 turns. Korvold is probably the Commander that is most unaffected by Toxrill's ability, unless you clear out Korvold's board before playing Toxrill.

The only things that Toxrill doesn't immediately kill in one turn cycle are your curve-topper bombs most typically seen in Gruul based decks like Ur-Dragon, and even then you probably just need 1.5 turn cycles to flatten even the fattest of dragons. This is HUGE, in terms of mana exchange.

I think that's what @pokken is trying to imply about Toxrill's ability: Toxrill consumes the most common form of board presence and the mana spent by your opponents to develop that board presence simply by taking a game action of passing the turn. Control the board, counter key threats, and Toxrill will create an utterly dominant board state where it doesn't matter what creatures your opponents play.

That big fat hasty creature that might have smacked you for 7+? It's now a lowly 1/1 or 2/2 after a full turn cycle. Big fat tramply things like Ur-Dragon decks have to continuously pump out fat dragons and toughness buffing effects before they too are lowly 2/2's or 3/3's after a full turn cycle.

With all that said, I think Toxrill is a GREAT card and will find a way into a Reanimator strategy of mine. Might be time to revisit Nicol Bolas Reanimator again...

[pokken]

Toxrill, the Corrosive appeals to me a lot as a dimir control shell commander so I might try it just to see if I'm wrong about how oppressive it will be, since I always have a bunch of decks I at least don't have to play it 5 times a night and grind people's souls to dust =P

It really does basically everything you want. It's pretty unique for a commander to so strongly synergize with a control strategy; army in a can, card draw, board clearing, big fat butt to be resilient to Warstorm Surge type effects, etc. Being both a win condition and a card advantage suite makes you not need to really do anything

[Lifeless]

New Geralf is neat and Grimgrin approved. Toxrill is crazy as hell and I hope to never see him played in my group.

[Outcryqq]

I find it very amusing that they named Toxrill, the Corrosive the way they did given what a completely toxic card it is. "Hey, this resolved, now it's going to kill all your creatures until you kill it, and make me draw cards. Ok, you killed it, now I'll cast it again. Time to whack the mole!"

It looks like such a cool card at first glance but spend a little time looking at the play patterns and it's basically "hope you brought your spot removal for my commander every turn I have mana for it or you can't have creatures."

Absolutely atrocious design.

Any commander design that basically enables you to play nothing but ramp and removal/countermagic is just and couple it to a commander that kills everyone's creatures without needing any support...bleh.

I don't know why no one has figured out that spam killing every creature on the board doesn't create good games. It's one thing if it's an unassailable lock I guess, but this is just going to create agonizing games.

edit: I will admit some serious yearning to play this as a UB control commander who basically acts like Decree of Pain in the command zone Basically lets you play 20+ counterspells. Fun!

At 7 MV, and does nothing upon ETB/cast, I don't think it will end up being very toxic. 7 mana sorcery speed bombs are aplenty in commander.

[BeneTleilax]

Toxrill is slow and impolitic. I do think he replaces Massacre Worm handily in UBx reanimator, and might be one among many solid top-end threats for a UBx ramp/control deck. However, having played Judith Deathtouch, which can get a pretty resilient way to kill all creatures repeatedly online around turn 4, discretion matters more than destructive ability. I can lock the board down pretty well, but I instantly become archenemy, and even after setting up my recursion engines, they cannot hold long against three decks of equivalent power doing everything to crack them. Even if I only mitigate clear threats, I can still lose the political game, as happened when I stopped an Omnath deck that nearly combo'd twice, but whose pilot better commanded the sympathies of the table (not that I'm salty about that or anything). How I use the power of my deck matters far more than simply having that power, even if I just look at winning.

Toxrill, unlike Judith, is automatic, giving no opportunity for such discretion. Whatever you have set up to protect him will not hold more than 2 turns, unless you're pubstomping. Win or lose, your opponents will carry grudges against you into the next game, which are all the more potent given that you take a while to set up and cast Toxrill. Having also played aggro-ish decks, they love nothing more than an opponent they can kill out the gate and have the other opponents consider it a favor.

[pokken]

At 7 MV, and does nothing upon ETB/cast, I don't think it will end up being very toxic. 7 mana sorcery speed bombs are aplenty in commander.

Ok, find me a UBx commander who does anything even close to this.

Even as a bomb, I think the card is probably top 10 UB bombs for efficiency (edged out for sure by Razaketh, the Foulblooded and Consecrated Sphinx, but I'm not sure what else, maybe Vilis, Broker of Blood or Nezahal, Primal Tide?).

There's really nothing like it to even compare it to. Board control, card advantage, bodies, etc.

(Again, I want to reiterate, I don't think it's a bannable card I just think it's extremely questionable from a design perspective )

Toxrill is slow and impolitic. I do think he replaces Massacre Worm handily in UBx reanimator, and might be one among many solid top-end threats for a UBx ramp/control deck. However, having played Judith Deathtouch, which can get a pretty resilient way to kill all creatures repeatedly online around turn 4, discretion matters more than destructive ability. I can lock the board down pretty well, but I instantly become archenemy, and even after setting up my recursion engines, they cannot hold long against three decks of equivalent power doing everything to crack them. Even if I only mitigate clear threats, I can still lose the political game, as happened when I stopped an Omnath deck that nearly combo'd twice, but whose pilot better commanded the sympathies of the table (not that I'm salty about that or anything). How I use the power of my deck matters far more than simply having that power, even if I just look at winning.

Toxrill, unlike Judith, is automatic, giving no opportunity for such discretion. Whatever you have set up to protect him will not hold more than 2 turns, unless you're pubstomping. Win or lose, your opponents will carry grudges against you into the next game, which are all the more potent given that you take a while to set up and cast Toxrill. Having also played aggro-ish decks, they love nothing more than an opponent they can kill out the gate and have the other opponents consider it a favor.

I think the big hamfistedness is part of the design issue. You're going to be archenemy from any creature deck and either they are gonna kill you or you're going to make them wish they'd gone for a burger instead of playing with you

The interesting part of that is that because the commander does basically everything for you, I think you'll survive archenemy a lot more than you otherwise would with a BR deck that requires support. Toxrill requires zero support- you can just play ramp, removal, and countermagic/protection, and your general is Consecrated Sphinx + Massacre Wurm

[BeneTleilax]

I think the big hamfistedness is part of the design issue. You're going to be archenemy from any creature deck and either they are gonna kill you or you're going to make them wish they'd gone for a burger instead of playing with you

If you can survive being archenemy for most of the game, you are almost definitionally pubstomping, because it means your deck is stronger than the sum of your opponents' decks.

[pokken]

If you can survive being archenemy for most of the game, you are almost definitionally pubstomping, because it means your deck is stronger than the sum of your opponents' decks.

Perhaps my phrasing was not particularly great, but "archenemy from any creature deck" is different than "archenemy." Lots of decks just don't care if you're killing all the creatures, or are willing to let you get out of hand because you're slowing the game down and they want to play slower.

That said, I think it's pretty feasible to either 1) occasionally win a game of archenemy due to a combination of good beat and bad beats for opponents, 2) win a game where people realize they need to pressure your life total too late, and not be pubstomping necessarily. People make a lot of bad decisions.