Unreleased and New Card Discussion

[Serenade]

It makes my experience worse because I have no clue what is sitting across from me anymore.

[RxPhantom]

Did @Card Slinger J hack Dirk's account?

I feel like everyone is getting this but him, which is very off brand for Dirk. The concept of the default being automatically the worst is not universal.

This might be an unpopular opinion, but in terms of frames, the best were the sketch frames from Modern Masters II followed by the Planar Chaos frames.

I'm not sure where I'd rank the sketch frames, but I absolutely loved that they printed the art direction notes on many of them. Now that I think about it, I should pick up one of those for General Ferrous Rokiric. One of the deck's side missions is to have as many unique frames as possible.

It makes my experience worse because I have no clue what is sitting across from me anymore.

Can you expound on this? This seems like it would play better as a critique of some of the more gonzo Secret Lair treatments. And Invocations *shudder*

[DirkGently]

Wotc chose to use an alternate frame and it makes my experience of the game worse.

Do you believe that the existence of cards you don't want to play with makes your experience of the game worse?

Well now it sounds like we're talking about card design instead of graphical design.

For card design it depends. I play with everything that comes through a draft format and don't have any compunctions against playing OP cards if I draft them (though certainly some cards are detrimental to the draft environment).

For commander, I do think cards like thoracle makes my experience worse, yes. Other cards I don't play could be neutral or positive though. Like I don't hardly ever play tribal decks but most tribal cards don't bother me.

On the frame front, say with the greyscale innistrad cards which I detest, I would definitely say they make the experience worse. Whenever I acquire a card - crack, trade, or buy - and it ends up being one of those, it makes me go "hmmmrggg. Really wish it wasn't this version. Maybe I can replace it later." It saps the enjoyment of acquiring the card. That experience wouldn't happen if they hadn't released that version of the card and all those printings were in the default border instead.

The neo old borders aren't nearly that bad - honestly aside from the colored artifacts annoyance they're pretty banal, I wouldn't care enough to replace them - but they're still a very mild negative imo.

I do also think that all alternative versions of cards make the game very slightly worse by making it harder to recognise cards quickly. So if the version can't justify itself by being cool then I default to disliking it. Granted alternate borders are easier to parse than alternate arts.

[tstorm823]

Other cards I don't play could be neutral or positive though. Like I don't hardly ever play tribal decks but most tribal cards don't bother me.

I think this is effectively parallel to the situation others are attempting to communicate. You can prefer other cards and other strategies and have no intention of ever playing tribal strategies, but still be able to look at a tribal card and think "hey, that's kind of neat, I hope people have fun with that."

People can prefer the default border to an alternative, and have no intention of using the alt-art or alt-border, but look at it and think "that's kind of neat, I hope people have fun with that."

[Dunadain]

Do you believe that the existence of cards you don't want to play with makes your experience of the game worse?

I've mostly just been idling watching this argument, but I had to jump in:
Abso-%$#%-lutely!!!!!

There are (probably) hundreds of cards on this game that I choose not to play, yet frequently find myself playing against them anyways. Usually it's the card mechanics, rather than art, but I do hate textless cards with a passion.

This point would make more sense in a single player game (though I believe balancing is important even in single-player games).

[DirkGently]

Did @Card Slinger J hack Dirk's account?

I feel like everyone is getting this but him, which is very off brand for Dirk. The concept of the default being automatically the worst is not universal.

I do find this argument pretty confusing but you know me, I'll never let an argument die no matter how frivolous :D

Where do you think I've said that the default is bad? The default is just the default, it's the stick against which everything else is measured. Things that are better are good, things that are worse are bad. It would only be the worst if every alternative frame was better (which obviously I don't think is true).

It makes my experience worse because I have no clue what is sitting across from me anymore.

Can you expound on this? This seems like it would play better as a critique of some of the more gonzo Secret Lair treatments. And Invocations *shudder*

Personally, while alternative borders aren't a huuuge impediment to recognizing cards, they are sometimes harder to recognize at a moment's glance if I'm more used to the default modern frame.

Definitely a bigger gripe for art variations and such though, at least for me. But take a new art PLUS a neo old frame and it's really hard to recognize imo since I assume it's an older card normally.

Other cards I don't play could be neutral or positive though. Like I don't hardly ever play tribal decks but most tribal cards don't bother me.

I think this is effectively parallel to the situation others are attempting to communicate. You can prefer other cards and other strategies and have no intention of ever playing tribal strategies, but still be able to look at a tribal card and think "hey, that's kind of neat, I hope people have fun with that."

People can prefer the default border to an alternative, and have no intention of using the alt-art or alt-border, but look at it and think "that's kind of neat, I hope people have fun with that."

See but I wouldn't say I "like" those tribal cards. For example I think Strefan, Maurer Progenitor is very lame, not interested at all, tribal designs are boring, don't let the door hit you on the way out. But if someone is playing it against me, I have zero problem with that. In fact it's a positive because it allows me to differentiate my own deckbuilding preferences from other people, and without those cards I personally dislike I wouldn't have anything to separate myself from. I'm glad they exist but I don't like them. In fact I'm glad they exist BECAUSE I don't like them, even.

You could say "well, I'm glad those borders exist even if I don't personally want to use them" but I wouldn't describe that as "liking" them. You're presumably going to avoid using them if you'd rather have the default modern frame. That really doesn't sound like "liking" them to me.

[tstorm823]

You could say "well, I'm glad those borders exist even if I don't personally want to use them" but I wouldn't describe that as "liking" them. You're presumably going to avoid using them if you'd rather have the default modern frame. That really doesn't sound like "liking" them to me.

I think you could be willing to concede that someone could reasonably use the word "like" to mean "I'm glad they exist".

I've mostly just been idling watching this argument, but I had to jump in:
%$#%!!!!!

There are (probably) hundreds of cards on this game that I choose not to play, yet frequently find myself playing against them anyways. Usually it's the card mechanics, rather than art, but I do hate textless cards with a passion.

This point would make more sense in a single player game (though I believe balancing is important even in single-player games).

The question you answered is slightly different than the question that was asked. You're answering the question "are there cards that you choose not to play that make your experience of the game worse." The answer to that is probably yes for everyone. Everyone has cards they wish they'd never have to play a game with, usually Scrambleverse.

The question was whether the existence of cards you don't want to play with makes your experience worse. To restructure the question: if you could eliminate every card you don't personally want to use from existence, would you? Would you rather play a game with only the game pieces you want to use personally, or would you allow for alternatives that you don't plan to use but others could? Which of those options do you think would result in a better experience?

[Dunadain]

The question you answered is slightly different than the question that was asked. You're answering the question "are there cards that you choose not to play that make your experience of the game worse." The answer to that is probably yes for everyone. Everyone has cards they wish they'd never have to play a game with, usually Scrambleverse.

The question was whether the existence of cards you don't want to play with makes your experience worse.

Nope, that's the question I was answering, because the fact that they do exist means that I do play against them, you can't really separate the two.

As for:

To restructure the question: if you could eliminate every card you don't personally want to use from existence, would you? Would you rather play a game with only the game pieces you want to use personally, or would you allow for alternatives that you don't plan to use but others could? Which of those options do you think would result in a better experience?

I don't think it's useful to speak in absolutes like that. I wouldn't expect every card that I don't like to be banned/cease to exist, but are you honestly telling me I'm wrong for wishing the worst offenders, like legacy Dreadhorde Arcanist was never a thing?

(I realize that's a different format, but for me that is the worst offender I've had to experience).

[tstorm823]

I don't think it's useful to speak in absolutes like that. I wouldn't expect every card that I don't like to be banned/cease to exist, but are you honestly telling me I'm wrong for wishing the worst offenders, like legacy Dreadhorde Arcanist was never a thing?

You can think it's useful or not, that is the discussion that is happening. We are not talking about whether the game would be better without specific cards. The existence of the ban list sort of settles that question, the game is better without certain cards. Even aesthetically, the situation with the Dryad Arbor that just looks like a forest is an example of the game being better without specific aesthetic treatments. That's not the conversation though.

One person said they like an alternate frame, but not as much as the regular one. Another user is arguing that if you would play the default over the alternate, you can't reasonably say you like that card, going so far as to say the existence of an alternate worse than the default makes the experience of the game worse by existing.

My mind personally goes to the heavy metal secret lair. I think those were a neat idea, I think they were well executed, I know exactly the person and exactly the deck they belong with, it just isn't me. I would never play them, I would rather the regular cards. And if that other person plays with them, that can make my experience of the game better, by allowing their preferred aesthetic to shine on their side of the board. I think that could reasonably be described as liking the cards while preferring the standard arts myself. Because cards can make my experience better even if I would never sleeve them up myself.

[Hermes_]

making it harder to recognise cards quickly.

I think if I may be so bold, this quote sums up how I think Dirk feels and is the stick that he uses regarding alternate looks of cards be it a frame or art treatment.

[Dunadain]

You can think it's useful or not, that is the discussion that is happening.

No it is not, this is the quote that I was replying to:

Do you believe that the existence of cards you don't want to play with makes your experience of the game worse?

I thought this take was comically bad so I replied to it.

I haven't said anything about the rest of this discussion because I don't care, most frames don't bother me, but I think dirk's stance is reasonable if you do feell strongly about alt borders (and in his defense, it sounds like it doesn't even bother him that much, but then people started jumping down his throat and now he's defending himself but that's just what the argument looks like to me)

[DirkGently]

You could say "well, I'm glad those borders exist even if I don't personally want to use them" but I wouldn't describe that as "liking" them. You're presumably going to avoid using them if you'd rather have the default modern frame. That really doesn't sound like "liking" them to me.

I think you could be willing to concede that someone could reasonably use the word "like" to mean "I'm glad they exist".

Where do you get that reading of anything RxPhantom has said? He has never mentioned other people's enjoyment being the reason he "likes" them.

I think we're getting into the weeds of sophistry here, taking small steps that maybe look logical individually but take a step back and it makes very little sense. If someone asked "Hey, does anybody like Clamato?" and someone said "I like Clamato! I don't like the way it tastes, but I'm glad other people have the option to drink it, and it makes me feel better about choosing to drink something else!" that would be a pretty unusual way to answer that question. And I don't believe that's how he intended his response at all.

At this point I'm fairly certain RxPhantom's meaning would be along the lines of:

Me: "Who likes Clamato?"
RxPhantom: "I like Clamato! Water is much better than Clamato."
Me: "That makes it sound like you don't like Clamato? But you said you do like Clamato? I am confused."
RxPhantom: "No, I just like beverages a lot, so even a beverage I don't like all that much is still good imo."

That's a logically consistent position. I still think it's unusual to evaluate something that is a deviation from the norm completely in isolation. If my LGS moved from a comfortable, spacious building to a smaller, cramped, but still decent building, I wouldn't say "I like this new location," because the logical point of comparison is the previous norm, and the new location is worse than that, even if it is still decent in a vacuum. But if I was visiting the same LGS from an even smaller store, it would make a lot more sense to say "I like this location" because your point of comparison is different, even though the thing you're evaluating is the same.

So I think that answers the question I originally had, which was why they would say "I like the old border treatments." and "The M15 frame smokes its predecessors." in the same post. I think the intention would have been much clearer if they had said "The M15 frame smokes it's predecessors but the original frame is still really good" or something along those lines, but I don't think there's any point in arguing over that.

That still doesn't solve the mystery of why multiple people have been jumping down my throat over this when I've made great pains to use neutral language but whatever.

making it harder to recognise cards quickly.

I think if I may be so bold, this quote sums up how I think Dirk feels and is the stick that he uses regarding alternate looks of cards be it a frame or art treatment.

Its a factor. I wouldn't say it's "the stick". The stick is the default version, the version that exists without the alternative version. The new anime art for Divine Visitation I don't think looks that great, definitely would prefer the original art. But if it was the alternative art for Celestial Prism then it would be a big improvement. Same thing with frames. If a frame is worse than the default frame (currently the post-m15 frame) I don't like it, and vice versa. But if a card only previously existed in the B&W innistrad frames/art, then printing it in the neo old frames would be an improvement and I would like the card. But the way the game is designed means that ALMOST every card is printed at least once in the normal frame for whatever year it is, so that's almost always the stick.

The complexity added with every new version does mean that new versions should justify their existence imo. If MtG wasn't a game, it was like baseball cards and we just collected them, then printing crappy looking baseball cards wouldn't really hurt anything, or at least to much lesser degree (and it's already a pretty small degree tbf considering how many cards already exist).

Even if MtG was baseball cards, though, if a new version of a card came out and I thought it looked worse than the previous version, I wouldn't say I "like" that new version, even if its existence wasn't going to negatively impact anything about my collection.

[DirkGently]

Only if you're intentionally missing the point. I like multiple frames. It's crazy, I know.

Anyway, complaining about new frame treatments is pissing into the wind. Your old cards are still available. You're fine.

These users thanked the author RxPhantom for the post:
@TheAmericanSpirit

I think dirk's stance is reasonable if you do feell strongly about alt borders (and in his defense, it sounds like it doesn't even bother him that much, but then people started jumping down his throat and now he's defending himself but that's just what the argument looks like to me)

These users thanked the author Dunadain for the post:
@TheAmericanSpirit

I see you over there ;P

[TheGildedGoose]

Can we add a way to snooze users so I can enjoy my regularly scheduled complaining about power creep?

[RxPhantom]

Can we add a way to snooze users so I can enjoy my regularly scheduled complaining about power creep?

Bitter Triumph is here, so I guess Infernal Grasp is chaff. Grasp itself invalidated Go for the Throat and Ultimate Price. Poor Terror...

[tstorm823]

That still doesn't solve the mystery of why multiple people have been jumping down my throat over this when I've made great pains to use neutral language but whatever.

I don't believe anyone has jumped down your throat. You repeatedly expressed or displayed a lack of understanding of a concept, and people attempted to help you understand. That should be a positive interaction.

Do you believe that the existence of cards you don't want to play with makes your experience of the game worse?

I thought this take was comically bad so I replied to it.

I haven't said anything about the rest of this discussion because I don't care, most frames don't bother me, but I think dirk's stance is reasonable if you do feell strongly about alt borders (and in his defense, it sounds like it doesn't even bother him that much, but then people started jumping down his throat and now he's defending himself but that's just what the argument looks like to me)

That wasn't a take. That was a question, presented as an opportunity for the person being asked to better express themselves.

[DirkGently]

I don't believe anyone has jumped down your throat.

If you don't feel the same way about all alternate frames it sounds like you're just a boomer hater.

Only if you're intentionally missing the point. I like multiple frames. It's crazy, I know.

Anyway, complaining about new frame treatments is pissing into the wind. Your old cards are still available. You're fine.

Come on.

I guess I just don't understand why you'd say you like an alternate frame unless you like it more than the default.

Am I the only one who really doesn't care for these old border versions of new cards?

Because you %$#% asked!

This one I find particularly galling since 1) he wasn't involved in that particular back and forth, 2) his "gotcha" response is a complete non-sequitur - I'm asking what RxPhantom means by "liking" something if he thinks it's worse than the norm (HOW he likes it) versus the original question (DOES he like it) - 3) his response was unnecessarily rude, and 4) then afterwards he complains about this conversation wasting his time. You didn't need to get involved if you didn't want to spend time on this, Goose.

Did @Card Slinger J hack Dirk's account?

I'll admit that one is funny but also fr how dare you.

FWIW I wrote up my response before I read @Dunadain's post that used the exact same phrase xD so I know it's not just me who feels like this whole conversation has been unnecessarily combative. Not from you, tstorm, you're consistently civil. Though, at least from my perspective, it sometimes feels like you argue with the primary goal of finding a way to prove me wrong rather than getting to the truth of the matter.

[duducrash]

How did the flying test go?

[DirkGently]

How did the flying test go?

Oh yeah I passed :D Thanks for asking!

So hopefully will be teaching peeps to fly in the new year. Hopefully they don't kill me.

[tstorm823]

If you don't feel the same way about all alternate frames it sounds like you're just a boomer hater.

From my perspective, most of Goose's comments, but most notably this one, were almost certainly meant to be light-hearted. I don't think you were actually being called a "boomer hater" for disliking certain borders.

I can understand reading back through how you could see that all as hostile reactions though.

FWIW I wrote up my response before I read @Dunadain's post that used the exact same phrase xD so I know it's not just me who feels like this whole conversation has been unnecessarily combative. Not from you, tstorm, you're consistently civil. Though, at least from my perspective, it sometimes feels like you argue with the primary goal of finding a way to prove me wrong rather than getting to the truth of the matter.

To be fair, most of our arguments have been about multiplayer politics and group hug strategies, where we have very different preferences, and I am 100% trying to prove you wrong. I believe that goes both ways though. There's not really a truth to get to when arguing about how we both think the other person's favorite tactics are heinously unfun.

[TheGildedGoose]

I like the old border treatments. I like most of the alternate/novelty frames they've come out with. Of the three 'main' borders we've had since Alpha, I think they've only gotten better. The M15 frame smokes its predecessors.

The first half of that seems contradictory with the second half?

Liking the old frame - directly answering your question - doesn't preclude liking the modern frame more. Your inquiry lasted for four days and two pages and reads as deliberately obtuse and argumentative on a subject completely unrelated to the thread topic at hand.

I apologize for implying you're prejudiced against boomers.

[DirkGently]

To be fair, most of our arguments have been about multiplayer politics and group hug strategies, where we have very different preferences, and I am 100% trying to prove you wrong. I believe that goes both ways though. There's not really a truth to get to when arguing about how we both think the other person's favorite tactics are heinously unfun.

I certainly don't have a problem with you defending yourself if I attack the way you like to build decks, and I don't mind you attacking my own preferences, that's all good. Big part of what I love about this forum.

But I do find it kinda weird in instances like this, where you came into the conversation I was having with another party, and (I would argue) reinterpret what the other party said. Maybe you actually do/did feel that their POV was that they "liked" alternative frames as an option for other people to use, but I really don't think that interpretation is supported by anything they posted, and I don't think it's typically a way that humans interact with the question "do you like ____?" So, to me, it feels like you started with "Dirk must be wrong, so whatever interpretation demonstrates that he is wrong must be the correct one." rather than trying to make an honest attempt to understand what RxPhantom meant and going from there.

I have felt that way in the past as well, but I really don't want to go digging through past arguments looking for examples. In the end, it's just the way I feel - I have no way of knowing what your motivations are. It's completely possible that you're approaching the argument in good faith and your conclusions just happen to align against mine.

Liking the old frame - directly answering your question - doesn't preclude liking the modern frame more.

Whether or not you think my clarifying question was justified (and I would argue it was - who says "I like Clamato less than water" but still claims to like Clamato? It's at least unusual) it was a different question than the one I originally asked.

Your inquiry lasted for four days and two pages and reads as deliberately obtuse and argumentative on a subject completely unrelated to the thread topic at hand.

I apologize for implying you're prejudiced against boomers.

I mean you're contributing to the "problem". This conversation could have been much shorter if so many people weren't intent on interjecting to beat me over the head for asking some clarifying questions.

I don't think it's off-topic. This is the thread for discussion new card releases. It's a reprint set so there's a lot less to talk about. Given a lack of new mechanics, aesthetics seems like fair game to me.

Not that it proves anything, but my gf read the thread and also finds it confusing that someone would say they like something that they like less than the default. I don't think I'm being obtuse. Read that first post again and replace some nouns and tell me that doesn't sound strange:

"I like the old border treatments. [...] The M15 frame smokes its predecessors."

"I like [Clamato]. [...] [Water] smokes [Clamato and...idk let's go with orange juice]."

That doesn't sound unusual to you? You don't think it's reasonable to ask for clarification?

Boomer hater means hatred OF boomers? I assumed you meant I was a hater and a boomer. I mean I feel like a boomer within Magic. Been in the game a lot longer than most at least. Given that part of my reasons for disliking the neo-old frame was because of how I feel about the old-old frame I started out playing, I figured you were dunking on me for that ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[TheGildedGoose]

That doesn't sound unusual to you? You don't think it's reasonable to ask for clarification?

Not if someone has asked the room for their opinion of Clamato.

[Dunadain]

That wasn't a take. That was a .question, presented as an opportunity for the person being asked to better express themselves

C'mon, it was obviously a rhetorical question.

But fine: it was such a comically bad "question, presented as an opportunity for the person being asked to better express themselves" that I jumped in,

"Sophistry" is the right word for what's going on here XD

[DirkGently]

That doesn't sound unusual to you? You don't think it's reasonable to ask for clarification?

Not if someone has asked the room for their opinion of Clamato.

What relevance does that have? He gave a confusing answer to my question so I asked for clarification. Me asking the question means I can't ask for clarification?