Unreleased and New Card Discussion

[Mookie]

re: Minas Morgul, Dark Fortress vs Rogue's Passage - 'tapped fixing vs untapped nonfixing' is one of those eternal questions. I think Rogue's Passage is a bit better - the fact that you can play and use it immediately instead of needing to wait a turn is a pretty significant improvement. Minas Morgul only becomes more cost-effective if you hit your opponent with the shadow creature 2+ times, which seems... ambitious.

Additionally, I'll note it also competes with Shizo, Death's Storehouse - fear isn't quite as strong as unblockable, but it's a reasonable substitution in many games.

[DirkGently]

Kind of depends what you want from your Voltron deck, tbh, calling all decks that win with commander damage "Voltron" is kind of ridiculous anyways.

Slicer, Hired Muscle // Slicer, High-Speed Antagonist is the best Voltron commander out there with Light-Paws, Emperor's Voice being a distance second.

But they also play very different from a Wydwen, the Biting Gale/Ebondeath, Dracolich.

Personally, I'd rather not play a deck that loses the game if an opponent ever plays Plaguecrafter but that's just me.

Also, the full speed ahead Voltron decks tend to get hated out real quick and aren't great at rebuilding. Pretty sure I have a higher win rate with Ebondeath, Dracolich then the guy in my play group that plays Slicer, Hired Muscle // Slicer, High-Speed Antagonist, despite his deck being objectively much more powerful. A small part of that might come down to player skill, but I'm pretty sure most of it comes down to the fact that I can work with opponents, and Slicer, Hired Muscle // Slicer, High-Speed Antagonist is public enemy #1 starting turn 1.

Ain't no rule says Slicer has to attack ASAP.

Nearly any commander (sans perhaps Opal-Eye, Konda's Yojimbo - further proof that Yojimbo sucks) can be an okayish deck with a voltron strat. Squire would be more than capable of killing with commander damage were it legendary and had the right deck - honestly not much worse than once-popular voltron commander Isamaru, Hound of Konda (jury is still out on Wood Elemental - that would be a proper challenge). And true, there's often going to be political expediency in slow rolling a voltron game plan, so you don't take too much heat until you can find a window and open the throttle. But a powerful voltron commander has the ability to open that throttle when it wants to. Case in point, my Kellan deck - usually I take the slow road with bitterthorn to set up sunforger or whatever, but if I think my best game plan is to put pedal to the metal, I can reliably swing for lethal damage on turn 5, drawing nothing but basic lands. And ofc that's nothing compared to power of the aforementioned options.

Having played Ebondeath myself - and tbf your deck is almost certainly better since I didn't spend any time refining mine - he's not an impressive voltron commander. He's a durable-ish evasive-ish wincon for a control deck (and tbh I don't think MBC can reliably go long in commander - too vulnerable to too many things - so I don't favor a slow, low-value wincon). To the extent that he can play politics, it's because he's weak enough that he's rarely a serious threat. And he's probably among the best options for mono-black voltron - there just aren't good options available tbh. It's not a strategy that's well-supported in the color. Black has some powerful and unique tools, primarily tutors and to a lesser extent removal and draw - it's nice to have as a support color, no doubt. But voltron just isn't mono-black's forte. Which is nbd, honestly, because as much as I enjoy trying to make it work, voltron is a pretty low-powered strategy outside of the aforementioned outliers.

I'd still likely put minas morgul into a Bx voltron deck. You do make a good point about activating eot. It's just that that's a fairly narrow band of decks. Even doing my best to find good black voltron decks, I'm seeing very few compelling commanders. Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon is the only mono-black voltron commander I'd rate. The next most popular on EDHrec is like...Yargle, Glutton of Urborg? Once you go to multicolor there are some much more appealing options like Lazav, Dimir Mastermind, Ramses, Assassin Lord, Karlov of the Ghost Council, or even just something like Lurrus of the Dream-Den that just has a low cost and gives you some value while you're waiting for an opening. Into those decks, sure, I'd probably put minas morgul. @Mookie does make a good point about rogue's passage though - being able to surprise someone with it from hand can be a smart way to close out a game when your opponent thought they were safe, and MM can't do that. So it might actually be at its best in something like Lurrus, where you can chip in some setup/value damage without people freaking out like they might if you put a shadow counter onto Karlov for example.

[Dunadain]

Eh, I ain't got the heart for this anymore XD.

My closing remark is: Ebondeath, Dracolich has a perfectly functional gas pedal, he can represent a turn 6 kill more often than not, and that's after I intentionally took out Mana Crypt and Sol Ring since t2 Ebondeath, Dracolich was too fast for the kind of games I want to play. That is a turn slower than Kellan, but it also comes with evasion and usually some additional value from whatever equipment you are using, so there's some push and pull there. That's why he's the commander in the first place, he "fixes" the problem with MBC by murdering anybody that's capable of winning in a way MBC can't interact with. You're screwed if everyone is playing creatureless combo decks, but every deck has good and bad table compositions.

[DirkGently]

@Dunadain I know you like your own deck, but my original point in this argument was that Minas Morgul, while decent, is a narrow version of rogue's passage because it's black and black is not a strong color for voltron. If you think black is a viable voltron color, then which black voltron commander are people actually playing? Because ebondeath voltron is like...50 decks on EDHrec. Skittles is 1500 decks, not too bad. But Light-paws is 7.3K. Ardenn is 5.2K just with rograkh alone. Galea is 4K, Wyleth is 3.1K, Bruenor is 2K... I think you're too close to this situation to make a fair assessment. The reality is that this card, while decent, is quite narrow.

[Dunadain]

Hey now! You can't dismiss Rogue's Passage even though it's the fifth most popular techland on edhrec, then use edhrec to justify black Voltron being bad!

EDHrec is a puzzle that I shall never solve.

[Hermes_]

EDHrec is a puzzle that I shall never solve.

praise whoever that I ignore the "in number of decks" and the synergy % when i look at edhrec.

[Dunadain]

Can someone tell me what the synergy% even means? Lol

[Sporegorger_Dragon]

Can someone tell me what the synergy% even means? Lol

A volunteer with too much free time on their hands goes through each card and compares it with each card in a decklist, notes whether it comboes with that card or not, repeat for each deck that card appears in, then eventually all data is compiled to provide the synergy %?

[Mookie]

Can someone tell me what the synergy% even means? Lol

It's the difference between the % a card is played for a given commander and how much it is played across all commanders in that color. If a card has a high synergy %, that means it's particularly good with the commander compared to other commanders. For example, something like Elvish Archdruid has a +84% synergy rating in Ezuri, Renegade Leader because it's in 98% of Ezuri decks, but in only 14% of all green decks.

[Dunadain]

Can someone tell me what the synergy% even means? Lol

It's the difference between the % a card is played for a given commander and how much it is played across all commanders in that color. If a card has a high synergy %, that means it's particularly good with the commander compared to other commanders. For example, something like Elvish Archdruid has a +84% synergy rating in Ezuri, Renegade Leader because it's in 98% of Ezuri decks, but in only 14% of all green decks.

That makes sense and helps explain why often the cards have no synergy XD.

[DirkGently]

Hey now! You can't dismiss Rogue's Passage even though it's the fifth most popular techland on edhrec, then use edhrec to justify black Voltron being bad!

EDHrec is a puzzle that I shall never solve.

EDHrec isn't the end of the conversation, it's a jumping off point. I can look at the data, see that rogue's passage is heavily played, and then use my own experiences to make an evaluation that people are overplaying the card. I mean 75% of Anowon, the Ruin Thief decks are running it, and he's probably not one-shotting anyone. People are stupid.

I'd be happy to reject the EDHrec consensus on black voltron commanders if I had good reason to, but when I look at the list of commanders that are playing Nightmare Lash, they're...garbage? Skittles is strong but after that it's a bunch of absolute jank. And I'm sorry but I've played Ebondeath and he's just not very powerful. Based on your decklist, I'm guessing you're playing it somewhat similarly to Phelddagrif - and I'm sure it can win that way, but clippy the paperclip could win that way as long as the pilot was proficient. It says very little about the power level of the commander. And even within that playstyle, mono-black is going to have some severe weaknesses compared to commanders with access to blue and white.

[DirkGently]

I think I'll do a GBU for the 6 new legends (4 LTR ones plus 2 jurassic park ones), but I've spent an inordinate amount of time pondering over all the other cards as well, so I'll do a quick review for those in the 99. This is the sort of thing I consider "fun".

Welcome to... // Jurassic Park
Power: B+
Versatility: F

Outside dino tribal, It's pretty similar to a slow-mo Pir's Whim, except the land sucks and it only hits artifacts. You do get a random 3/3, but it's probably not worth it. In a dino tribal deck, the card is pretty insane since it's a gaea's cradle that gives you graveyard value. Dino tribal is garbage but I guess it's a bit better now.

Minas Tirith Garrison
Power: C+
Versatility: D+

Blue human tribal doesn't seem very common, though there's probably some overlap with soldier tribal from brother's war? The ceiling is decent but it does seem pretty niche. I wouldn't run it with just a human commander, you probably want at least 15 humans in the deck for it to be good.

Riders of the Mark
Power: C+
Versatility: C-

Red has more human tribal stuff, and this can be pretty strong, but it's also easy to die in combat and get nothing. Being able to rebuild from hand is solid for a go-wide deck, though, and it could be really cheap if you've already gone wide.

Call Forth the Tempest
Power: D+
Versatility: D

Potentially plague wind with upside for 8, but I think the potential to backfire is too high. 8 mana is a ton to risk a misfire. Probably worth it for rampy cascade decks but that's probably about it.

Nazgûl Battle-Mace
Power: F
Versatility: F

This card does nothing. Don't play it.

Mordor on the March
Power: F
Versatility: F

This card seems so insanely niche. I can't imagine any real decks wanting to both go for storm count AND fill their grave with fat creatures.

Fell Beast of Mordor
Power: D-
Versatility: C

Can't imagine sacrificing creatures for just 1 counter each would be an exciting deal. There might be some black commanders that help put counters on things? Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch maybe? It looks cool but I don't think the numbers make sense.

Minas Morgul, Dark Fortress
Power: C
Versatility: F-

Everyone knows that black voltron decks are literally impossible.

Andúril, Narsil Reforged
Power: B+
Versatility: B

If you're going wide, this seems pretty damn strong tbh. Reasonable costs, creates a permanent buff, and any deck that would consider this will have zero issue hitting 10 permanents.

Legolas's Quick Reflexes
Power: B+
Versatility: C

Guaranteed protection for a wincon seems really valuable to some decks. The punch spell is decent but less exciting. Some decks can maybe untap and do serious shenanigans, but I think mostly this is split card of protection and sorcery-speed removal.

Gimli's Reckless Might
Power: B
Versatility: B-

This actually seems pretty solid. You only overpay by 1-2 mana on the haste enabler, and it's free repeatable removal. Hard to even stop with removal since your stuff has haste. Probably very annoying to play against tbh.

Isengard Unleashed
Power: C
Versatility: D+

Pretty hard to setup, but c'mon who doesn't want to cast it, flashback it, and Lightning Bolt for 27? Sorry, I meant 81 - my commander is Sevinne, the Chronoclasm.

Rohirrim Chargers
Power: C+
Versatility: C-

A weaker, cheaper Stonehewer Giant with stricter colors. Bronze medal for worst art. Sure do love having some random dude's leg taking up a bunch of real estate.

Arboreal Alliance
Power: D
Versatility: D

I've tried to figure this out, and I'm pretty sure it's just bad. Elves want to alpha strike, not peck in over turns. And they definitely don't care about making trees. You could just play it on 2 and populate elf tokens, but I still don't think it fits the play patterns. Gold medal for worst art. I'm sure there's an alliance in there...somewhere...

Rally the Galadhrim
Power: C-
Versatility: D

Tough to meet all the requirements here - UG deck, good stuff to copy, enough dudes to conspire it, no removal to blow you out. Payoff is okay. Probably a classic almost-made-the-cut card. Silver medal for worst art. Gotta love the distracting off-screen bubble.

Galadriel's Dismissal
Power: B
Versatility: A-

Protect your commander, protect your board, disrupt a combo, fog an attack, remove all blockers...lots of options. Seems really strong tbh.

Mists of Lórien
Power: D
Versatility: B

This is maybe the hardest card to evaluate because it depends so much on the fine details of the board state. But I'm going to come out and say that I think it probably sucks. Defensively I think being a sorcery and a bounce spell is too weak, and offensively I think there are much better options. I think I'd rather play Wash Out, and nobody plays that card anymore.

Galadhrim Brigade
Power: C
Versatility: D

Seems decent but not insane in elf decks? I could be wrong. It also has applications for huge mana green like Sasaya, Orochi Ascendant // Sasaya's Essence.

Olórin's Searing Light
Power: C
Versatility: D-

I don't think you're willing to pay this much for non-targeted removal unless you're doing some sort of spellslinger thing where that random damage is going to be impactful. It's not so much a removal spell, and more of a value spell that hopefully removes something important.

Sorcerous Squall
Power: F
Versatility: F

I don't know why this card exists. It doesn't even synergize with Gandalf at all. Why not make it an instant? It would still be pretty bad but at least it wouldn't be THIS bad.

Rammas Echor, Ancient Shield
Power: C+
Versatility: B

I kinda like this one. Getting value and defenders at the same time is a nice package, and if you're on the offense it covers that too. Could see a lot of decks wanting this.

Courageous Resolve
Power: C-
Versatility: C

It's Shelter but more expensive and more powerful, and then occasionally it's a weird fog. Better against Torment of Hailfire, worse against commander damage, infect, etc. Probably doesn't often make the cut but it's not awful. Feather is happy with it I suppose.

Fell Beast's Shriek
Power: D
Versatility: D

Another tough one to evaluate. 4 is a ton for the splice cost, though, so I think this won't get played. Too easy for it to do nothing, and I think the high rolls are pretty unlikely.

Anyone else think these panoramas are stupid? It just makes the individual cards look worse imo. Sometimes they're fine, but a lot of the time there's weird extraneous crap in the foreground because it was coming off the side of another card.

[Dunadain]

Some look better than others. Alts or proxies are always am option.

I do like the scenes though. I really do feel like they are meant to be framed more than played tbh. Maybe I can make a deck box where they are attached to the sides (ideally with pockets so they can still be removed later, but if they are cheap enough, glue would give them a cleaner look.

[NZB2323]

I'll note that Legolas's Quick Reflexes + Seeker of Skybreak is a three mana Plague Wind in green. Not a card I expect to see much play, but I appreciate the extra utility it provides compared to a pure protection spell like Tamiyo's Safekeeping.

Thanks for pointing out the combo! This will have to go into my Legolas, Counter of Kills deck.

As far as voltron decks losing to Plaguecrafter, my Legolas voltron deck has Counterspell, Arcane Denial, Snake Umbra, Bear Umbra, or it could just sacrifice Birds of Paradise, Delighted Halfling, Sakura-Tribe Elder, Guardian Augmenter, Silent Arbiter, or Forgotten Ancient. Not to mention that Sigarda, Host of Herons is one of the most powerful Voltron commanders.

As far as Rogue's Passage, it's very good in a voltron deck, and The Black Gate and Minas Morgul, Dark Fortress. They don't necessarily have to go into a voltron deck. For example my Neheb, the Worthy deck wants him to connect to make everyone discard.

Riders of the Mark seems like an auto include in Éowyn, Shieldmaiden, since the deck is built on having 6+ humans in play, and creating all those humans are great for Purphoros, God of the Forge, Kindred Discovery, Shared Animosity, ect.

I was hoping they'd make a Naya Aragorn in the LOTR set to have an Aragorn/Gimli/Legolas/Battle of Helmsdeep deck, but he's super underwhelming and I couldn't even play Legolas, Counter of Kills in that deck. I know there's the 4 colored one, but playing mono colored creatures like Gimli and Legolas don't make sense with that commander.

[duducrash]

I think Minas Morgul, Dark Fortress is better than Rogue's Passage, mostly because it's a one time investment that you can do at any time and leave mana up to do something in your turn. A popular sword recently is Sword of Forge and Frontier for example, it gives more flexibility to what yo willdo each turn. Aditionally it gives a counter which is often relevant these days, specially since ikoria. ETB tapped sucks, but 5 mana investment every turn also sucks, being able to do it EOT or anytime you have the resources and the ability of having more than 1 active unblockable make me even more inclined to run it. I'm thinking of building Yargle and Multani and would run it there.

Sorcerous Squall I think this is also pretty ok, It would be way better years ago when decks were heavier and the average MV was much higher, but I think its still alright, Delve cards always find a way to perform alright

I'll also get a Gimli's Reckless Might haste is always pretty usefull, to have potential removal tacked into? i'm in

[DirkGently]

Sorcerous Squall I think this is also pretty ok, It would be way better years ago when decks were heavier and the average MV was much higher, but I think its still alright, Delve cards always find a way to perform alright

It's Memory Plunder except it's way more annoying to cast, and it's a sorcery. The mill is not that big imo - maybe sometimes you'll upgrade your target, but are you really gonna target someone and just pray you mill into something good? Probably not, probably you're looking for a good spell already in there and casting it regardless of the mill.

And memory plunder isn't an all-star or anything. It's cool, but significantly nerf it in multiple directions in exchange for a dubious upside and it's unplayable imo.

[duducrash]

And memory plunder isn't an all-star or anything. It's cool, but significantly nerf it in multiple directions in exchange for a dubious upside and it's unplayable imo.

I think you are right. It's not great, I was thinking it would be often a Wrath of God in mono blue with the eventual huge hit, but not worth the slot yes

[Dunadain]

Something that has occurred to me is that Indominus Rex, Alpha's card draw ability is based on how any counters he has, not how many cards you discarded. So you can do things like Mighty Emergence to turn him into actual card advantage. The Ozolith + flicker effects, and go to town.

[Cyberium]

New Doctor cards are certainly very flavorful.

[BeneTleilax]

It's amazing how much they feel like someone's custom card designs from ~2010, down to the screenshot-looking art.

[Hawk]

Flavor on most of these cards is a 11/10, but power-level wise I'm a bit more underwhelemed. Only one I'm super into so far is Decaying Time Loop - it is card disadvantage every time, but Retrace is a strong effect and I can see myself playing this in my two hyper-durdly WRx decks (Sevinne and Quintorious) as a way to rapidly fill my 'yard and churn through my library. Instant Speed really puts it over the top imo.

Gallifrey Falls is going to be crazy-strong in Feather, the Redeemed (recurrable boardwipe?) and Hinata, Dawn-Crowned, but is too expensive to be a staple. K-9, Mark I is adorable, a good boy, and a fine little trinkety card. Most of the rest today has seemed glacially, ludicrously slow.

[Serenade]

Run for Your Life as a bizarro version of provoke

Otherwise I agreed that I need Decaying Time Loop for Brallin and K-9, Mark I for Charix. Both are not-serious decks that I love.

I will be glad to pick up a few random, niche cards from this set. The Flux looks like the most playable version of the 4cmc red impulse-draw enchantments since you get an effect immediately. The others have been too slow in Pia Nalaar, Consul of Revival.

[Dunadain]

I know I sound like the old man yells at cloud meme, but these cards are much more appropriate power-level wise imo.

[Mookie]

Bigger on the Inside looks fun, but the new cards otherwise don't particularly excite me (or at least not enough to justify putting them in a deck). I can definitely see them being good in the precons though - stuff like Crisis of Conscience, Decaying Time Loop, and Gallifrey Falls look like they could be strong with a little support.

[yeti1069]

I've seen a few people excited for Decaying Time Loop, but I'm not seeing it--you want wheels to restock your hand, but recasting this is always putting you down 1 to begin with, and then you need something else to fill you up enough to be worth looping this.