[Off-Topic] Community Chat Thread

[duducrash]

nontoken creatures get +1/+1 and have vigilance

[Dunadain]

nontoken creatures get +1/+1 and have vigilance

???

[duducrash]

nontoken creatures get +1/+1 and have vigilance

???

Always Watching

[RxPhantom]

I actually enjoyed Elemental more than I thought I would. WALL-E is clearly S-tier. Other than that, I have no strong objections.

Actually, now that I think about it, Soul kind of annoyed me because the entire movie happens just because he makes the most minimal of efforts to not go toward the light. He kinda pops through the forcefield. So nobody, eon after eon, ever resisted death and tried to go the other way? This guy was the first? Other than that I enjoyed it, but it being the impetus of the movie was a little lazy.

[toctheyounger]

Big brother is always watching

Ben isn't Big Brother, he's more like Starfleet command. He's just got a yellow shirt and ours are as red as the mod box by which we are disciplined. Better that than devolving back into the darkest days of Sally's situation, I say.

Ben is a decent dude with a kind heart and a love for this game and the community. He's got a good head on his shoulders. Totally agree regarding Salvation, it really was the Wild West some days. And I only really saw the nadir.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

Ben is a decent dude with a kind heart and a love for this game and the community. He's got a good head on his shoulders. Totally agree regarding Salvation, it really was the Wild West some days. And I only really saw the nadir.

I agree. Ben's always done right by me and he's one of the few mods on any site anywhere that I can honestly respect.

Sally really was the Wild West, no joke. When Cryo said the moderation was lax, he was being generous. Do you remember The Gutter, by any chance?

[Venedrex]

Me:



Just to be clear, this is incredibly unserious and low-effort, and I love making custom cards and think the actual process and every custom designer here is super cool, but every once in a while I do have to laugh when I try to imagine myself explaining what I do in my spare time to people.

[duducrash]

Ben is a decent dude with a kind heart and a love for this game and the community. He's got a good head on his shoulders. Totally agree regarding Salvation, it really was the Wild West some days. And I only really saw the nadir.

I agree. Ben's always done right by me and he's one of the few mods on any site anywhere that I can honestly respect.

Sally really was the Wild West, no joke. When Cryo said the moderation was lax, he was being generous. Do you remember The Gutter, by any chance?

I do not, would you give me the lore bebind it?

[Dunadain]

The more time goes on, the more dissatisfied I become with the LOTR set. I can type up a couple paragraphs explaining all my issues with it if anybody really wants to hear me complain, but mostly I'm just curious how other people feel about the set. The set's not bad per se, and it's certainly better than a lot of other universes beyond products we've received. I just think it's a shame that I feel mild annoyance towards a crossover between two of my favorite IPs ever.

[yeti1069]

The more time goes on, the more dissatisfied I become with the LOTR set. I can type up a couple paragraphs explaining all my issues with it if anybody really wants to hear me complain, but mostly I'm just curious how other people feel about the set. The set's not bad per se, and it's certainly better than a lot of other universes beyond products we've received. I just think it's a shame that I feel mild annoyance towards a crossover between two of my favorite IPs ever.

I've really enjoyed it. I built all 4 precons (although I swapped both Sauron and Galadriel for other versions from the main set), as well as Smeagol. There are a bunch of cards that I couldn't fit into decks, but really wanted to, and I found drafting it to be fun, even if some archetypes felt very weak.

[Guardman]

The more time goes on, the more dissatisfied I become with the LOTR set. I can type up a couple paragraphs explaining all my issues with it if anybody really wants to hear me complain, but mostly I'm just curious how other people feel about the set. The set's not bad per se, and it's certainly better than a lot of other universes beyond products we've received. I just think it's a shame that I feel mild annoyance towards a crossover between two of my favorite IPs ever.

My two complaints are that Orcish Bowmasters and The One Ring are format warping for Historic and the draft format being one of the more boring draft formats in a while (part of which was Green was basically unplayable). As for the set itself, it's fine. I know a lot of people were brought into or back to MtG because of it. I'm not that big of a LotR fan, so while I found a few of the references neat, it wasn't my cup of tea.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

Ben is a decent dude with a kind heart and a love for this game and the community. He's got a good head on his shoulders. Totally agree regarding Salvation, it really was the Wild West some days. And I only really saw the nadir.

I agree. Ben's always done right by me and he's one of the few mods on any site anywhere that I can honestly respect.

Sally really was the Wild West, no joke. When Cryo said the moderation was lax, he was being generous. Do you remember The Gutter, by any chance?

I do not, would you give me the lore bebind it?

So I'll admit I don't know the full story because I was 12 back in 2007 and still just a wee forum lurker, but The Gutter was a subforum where essentially you could say anything without fear of infraction. Want to have a big blowout argument with lots of Ad Hominem? Take it to The Gutter. Want to express some unwholesome ideas or spew uncomfortable trains of thought? Go to the Gutter. Anyway, it was a dark and angry place from what I remember of it. IIRC its horrors began to leak from the confines of the Gutter and began to make the site itself look bad, so the mods and admins did away with it in 2009 or so. If you google "the gutter mtgsalvation", you can still find old forum posts of people debating the value of having such a place on Sally, but the subforum itself is long gone.

[toctheyounger]

I agree. Ben's always done right by me and he's one of the few mods on any site anywhere that I can honestly respect.

Sally really was the Wild West, no joke. When Cryo said the moderation was lax, he was being generous. Do you remember The Gutter, by any chance?

I do not, would you give me the lore bebind it?

So I'll admit I don't know the full story because I was 12 back in 2007 and still just a wee forum lurker, but The Gutter was a subforum where essentially you could say anything without fear of infraction. Want to have a big blowout argument with lots of Ad Hominem? Take it to The Gutter. Want to express some unwholesome ideas or spew uncomfortable trains of thought? Go to the Gutter. Anyway, it was a dark and angry place from what I remember of it. IIRC its horrors began to leak from the confines of the Gutter and began to make the site itself look bad, so the mods and admins did away with it in 2009 or so. If you google "the gutter mtgsalvation", you can still find old forum posts of people debating the value of having such a place on Sally, but the subforum itself is long gone.

I remember being on the primer committee there and one of the long term committee members sharing a link to something from the gutter. It was enough to get him kicked from the committee. At the time I thought it was a bit much, but I didn't have the whole history so idk I guess. I'm sure there was more to it.

[RxPhantom]

The more time goes on, the more dissatisfied I become with the LOTR set. I can type up a couple paragraphs explaining all my issues with it if anybody really wants to hear me complain, but mostly I'm just curious how other people feel about the set. The set's not bad per se, and it's certainly better than a lot of other universes beyond products we've received. I just think it's a shame that I feel mild annoyance towards a crossover between two of my favorite IPs ever.

Please, go on! I'm always willing to hear complaints about this set. Mechanically, I found it unexciting. Thematically, I have no strong feelings about LotR. And finally, I really dislike UB. I know our reasoning may differ, but don't let me stop you. Fire away.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

@Dunadain Go for it. You don't need our permission to vent, so by all means, get it out of your system!

@toctheyounger oh wow, that's pretty wild. I always thought the Sally commitee was a rock solid monolithic institution. It must have been something truly out there to get the boot for it, but if anything could produce such a thing, it would have been the Gutter.

[duducrash]

I'm thinkingo f building a Rowan, Scion of War deck. Regular version is the coolest, I'll grab an extended art foil, right? No turns out there are no extended art, just boderless, which somehow is different art, not just like a boderless version. Do we go one by one to determine which versions they have with each treatments. I asked for it at my LGS and even the owner was confused if the card exists.

two rules wotc!

1) Make it more clear please
2) If magali villeneuve did the art, give the most space possible

[toctheyounger]

@Dunadain Go for it. You don't need our permission to vent, so by all means, get it out of your system!

@toctheyounger oh wow, that's pretty wild. I always thought the Sally commitee was a rock solid monolithic institution. It must have been something truly out there to get the boot for it, but if anything could produce such a thing, it would have been the Gutter.

I mean honestly, idk the full story. The member, who isn't on nexus, alluded to a lot of history, I'm sure there's people here who could elaborate. Idk, it sure seemed like there was some deep down drama from way back.

[Dunadain]

@Dunadain Go for it. You don't need our permission to vent, so by all means, get it out of your system!

Please, go on! I'm always willing to hear complaints about this set. Mechanically, I found it unexciting. Thematically, I have no strong feelings about LotR. And finally, I really dislike UB. I know our reasoning may differ, but don't let me stop you. Fire away.

I appreciate the encouragement, lol, I just know I certainly get tired of other entrenched casual players complaining about every set.

I think I can summarize my disappointment to three problems. In order from least problematic to most I'd say:

Power Level: Orcish Bowmasters and The One Ring are warping every format they are legal in. Orcish Bowmasters has singlehandedly eliminated all x/1s in legacy, and The One Ring has replaced all other CA engines legacy. These are just the most blatantly overpowered cards. The entire Lórien Revealed cycle is becoming more and more popular as people figure out just how good they are, and then in the not broken, but sees a reasonable amount of play category, we have Delighted Halfling, Forge Anew and Samwise the Stouthearted.

To be clear, I really don't want to come off as one of those people that believes modern printing have "ruined" eternal formats. I want the occasional new card to make its way into eternal formats, but when you print 2 format defining cards, and a 5-card cycle that fits into most decks in one set, then I'm left wondering why I don't just go play standard. The format's certainly a lot cheaper.

I remember watching a video of Pleasant Kenobi's where he praises LOTR for reigning in the power level, as opposed to MH1 and 2, and all I could think was, is this Stockholm's syndrome? lol, obviously, it's a step down from MH1 and 2, but it's still WAY out of line imo.

The Ring Bearer Mechanic: The iconic mechanic of the set, is just not iconic at all.


So from a thematic standpoint, I believe the first ability is supposed to symbolize your ring bearer turning invisible by slipping on the ring? I suppose that makes sense, but why can smaller creatures still block you?

I've got nothing for the looting ability, Sauron is calling out to you somehow making you wiser I guess? even though it should kind of do the opposite (more on that later). Hexproof would have also worked

I think the third ability is supposed to be your ringbearer turning into a Nazgul, so they have those poison knives that they stabbed Frodo with? I guess this one works, (though it's also unnecessarily wordy, if it really is just a reference to the Nazgul blade, they could have just given the ring-bearer death-touch).

I also have nothing for the final ability.

It's not even that the mechanic needs to be a more accurately reference to LOTR (though that is one way they could have fixed the mechanic). The whole ability just has no flavor to it. What's happening here?

I know that WOTC doesn't like printing downsides on their cards anymore, which is lame, but I've learned to live with it. But this mechanic would be so much more flavorful if getting tempted was a bad thing. Make the cards that have the ring tempt you powerful, but come with the drawback of having the ring tempt you. Maybe the first time you just lose 1 life. Then you discard a card from your hand. Then eventually, the last stage, you exile your hand, graveyard, and library.

Obviously, we can sit here all day and talk about how we'd make the cards and mechanics of MTG, but it would be hard NOT to come up with a more thematic mechanic for the ring.

I'm not going to let the mechanics of this card off the hook either. I'm never excited to get tempted by the ring, because the ring is just so unimpactful. The first ability is fine, but nothing special (should have just been unblockable full stop). The second ability is the only good one, and it even synergizes with the first ability. I don't think I've ever seen the third ability trigger, and it rarely even changes my opponent's decision making. The mechanic feels awfully redundant when 2 tempts ago your creature got skulk, so only smaller creatures are going to be blocking you anyways (obviously, your opponent could have a 0/15 or something, but in general, giving a creature skulk, and then the deathtouch is awfully redundant). The final ability is largely useless in EDH where we all have 40 life, it's pretty good in 20 life formats though, but having the ring tempt you 4 times over the course of a game is very difficult, the payoff isn't really worth it.

I realize the irony of having my first complaint be that some cards are too powerful, and my second complaint being that the ring mechanic is too weak. But, first of all, it's possible to have both extremes printed in one set. Second of all, it's not so much that the ring mechanic is weak. It's that it is so bland, I'm not excited about the mechanic from a thematic OR mechanical point of view.

Finally, the sheer number of cards all referencing the same few characters. I've touched on this before and I might be alone in this, but the more I play these cards the more frustrated I become. Frodo, Gandalf, and Aragorn are all tied for the most cards representing them at 5 each. To put that in perspective Nicol Bolas THE PREMIER MTG VILLAIN, has 6 cards to his name, printed over 6 sets. %$#% JACE BELEREN has 13 cards to his name, printed over 11 sets. 3 characters in one set, each got over a third of the cards that the most prolific character in all of MTFG has ever had, combined, these 3 characters have more cards than any other character in the game.

Other characters also have multiple cards, the "one" ring has 2 cards, and a mechanic (more like the 3 rings, am I right? Badum, tsh)

The only copies that feel justified are Gandalf the grey + Gandalf the White, though that would have been served better as a transforming card. and MAYBE Strider, Ranger of the North + Aragorn, the Uniter, but even that is pushing it in my eyes.

I'm stumped how this came about, LOTR is a huge world, extensively filled in, both between 4 books and the entire Silmarillion to draw from. I can only assume that WOTC decided to put all their creativity into the iconic characters since they sell. In which case, shame on you WOTC.

And it's not only lazy and uninspired, it also makes the cards fuzz together so easily.

i remember a few weeks ago I played a game and my opponents commander was Gandalf the Grey the White[/card]. I remarked "huh" I thought I remember seeing that Gandalf was mono blue". To which my opponent responded, Oh no, you're thinking of Gandalf, Friend of the Shire. I've also already mixed up the multiple Sméagol's on several occasions.

[yeti1069]

I'll agree that I was disappointed in the ring tempts you mechanic not having a downside, other than that creature drawing fire (although, that could also be a plus). I think it was a HUGE flavor fail on the part of WotC.

I will say, however, that I have 3.5 decks that play with the mechanic, and all levels of the ring have been relevant. The 3rd tier probably least often, but it can be very impactful. Frodo has often slipped by a valuable blocker for not wanting to have to sacrifice it, and giving the ring to a big trampling attacker has meant that all the blockers die, even when their toughness is more than the attacker's power. I have no idea what the flavor is here...maybe how so many who try to take the ring died?

I will also agree that they went kind of overboard with the multiple printings of each of the big legends. Magic likes to show characters growing and developing over multiple cards at times (see Chandras), but I don't think we needed SO MANY. Frodo could have been 3: just starting out, sometime after the sundering of the fellowship, and at Mount Doom. Gandalf could have also been 3, but I think not making a Gandalf, the Grey//Gandalf, the White transforming card was another big flavor miss. Gollum definitely didn't need so many cards: the 3 monoblack ones are ridiculous. The riddle game one is cute, but the other two, while mechanically worthwhile, didn't need printing.

[5colorsrainbow]

The multiple cards for the same characters came from play testers being disappointed that in the lord of the rings draft /sealed you rarely if ever see any of the iconic characters. So they decided to make multiple version at different rarities to help make sure a Frodo or a Sam ect card would show up more often when cracking packs.

Imo a better comparison would be Brother's War with Urza and Mishra getting 4 cards each.

[Dunadain]

Imo a better comparison would be Brother's War with Urza and Mishra getting 4 cards each.

Which I also hated.

[Hermes_]

Either one of you guys works at yahoo or it's a coincidence

Yahoo Picks: Our 5 favorite Pixar movies, from 'Toy Story 4' (wait, what?) to 'Coco'
https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/yah ... 28046.html

[RxPhantom]

Thank you for that, @Dunadain. All I hear online or locally is praise for this set, and it's nice to hear a different opinion, especially one so well thought out.

I'd also like 'Weeb version' to stop being the go-to art variant for basically everything these days, but that's another conversation. %$#% weebs.

[DirkGently]

@Dunadain I mostly agree with what you've said. I don't agree so much with the power levels - there's only a couple cards (mostly the one ring) that really worry me in commander. Overall I think the set is on par with a couple obvious chase cards. Orcish bowmasters and land cyclers might be disruptive to other formats, but I don't really see an issue in commander.

I wasn't a fan of the ring mechanic in any context tbh. Within limited, its omnipresence meant that a lot of games revolved around similar things, which is boring. Within commander, it's mostly just irrelevant because the bonuses are pretty small. Plus I don't like mechanics that require some whole additional card to explain them. God knows what this game will look like in a decade - we'll probably need a freaking rolodex of mechanical reminder text cards to keep track of all the parasitic mechanics they've added to the game.

In general I dislike the idea of a single character being represented by a bunch of different cards. If a character is consistent, one card should be enough to represent them. Sure, characters change over time, and within the MTG universe we get slower, organic development allowing a new version to appear sometime later, once the character has substantially changed. Ofc, LotR is both an existing story and also a single set for licensing reasons, so it's reasonable to have a couple different versions all at once because of those limitations. But I don't think the character development argument holds whatsoever for the vast, vast majority of legends in LTR.

There are now 4 versions of the witch king, and all of them depict him after he lost his horse, so they've seemingly deliberately avoided showing any differentiation in his character. It seems to me that they just cynically want to take a bunch of extra bites at the apple, lest someone who likes the character and would potentially buy product get scared off by a design that doesn't appeal to them. "Here's the witch king, focusing on his invincibility and his cruelty as he punishes attackers. You don't think he's that interesting? Well that's okay, how about a more aggressive version that forces sacrifice when YOU attack? That one also sucks? Okay, well, he doesn't really seem to have much to do with spellcasting (as far as I recall), but people like spellslinger stuff, so now he makes all his nazgul buddies when you sling spells! You're STILL not interested??? Okay, now there's a version that will...idk, draw cards? Everybody wants to draw cards, right??? Please just buy buy buy buy buy buy buy..."

I think the ideal mix for legends imo would have been: give each major character 2 cards. One, an uncommon primarily targeted towards limited, which is the pre-character-development version. And then a rare/mythic chase commander card for their post-character-development version. We've got limited covered, we've got commander covered, we've got character development covered, easy peasy. And that's mostly what we've got in the main set. But they've gotta sell all this extraneous commander precon crap and start deck crap and holiday gift box crap and whatever else, and ofc none of those will sell enough copies without mechanically unique cards. So hopefully that 6th version of Gandalf is the one that sells!!!

[RxPhantom]

Has anyone else played Party Animals? It's a physics based party brawler game. The short version is that it's a bunch of stuffed animals beating the snot out of each other, and it's the game I didn't know I always wanted. It's rare that my six-year old and I love a game with equal fervor. Everyone should play it! And then add me on Xbox Live for more adorable violence!