Unreleased and New Card Discussion

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 9 months ago

Mookie wrote:
9 months ago
People misread and misremember cards all the time. Do you read every card your opponents play?
No, because I have the precise oracle wording memorized for every magic card ever printed (this is approximately a 12% exaggeration).
Or alternatively, it could just be a new player with a card they're not familiar with. I would not at all be surprised if someone out there is going to miss the 'once per turn' clause occasionally.
The word "flying" is even shorter and easier to miss than an entire sentence. Should we print "flying" twelve times on every creature with flying just in case? This is an unrealistic expectation. If you fail to read an entire sentence of a card, you are probably going to play the card incorrectly. That's just how it is. Read your %$#%$#% cards.

Personally I think keeping card wording concise and less legalistic reduces the chances that people will glaze over and skim through the text, potentially missing something important.
Now, suppose that person has multiple creatures enter the battlefield the same time and trigger Extraordinary Journey, or some other card.
  • If they think it triggers once per creature, then they put multiple triggers on the stack. Their opponent calls a judge over, and they get an infraction or are disqualified from the Pro Tour, or whatever.
  • If they think it triggers once, total, then they only resolve one trigger. No misplay has occurred. There may be an issue if it triggers again later that turn, but they're fine for now.
So yeah, I do think the additional clarity is meaningful.
As you yourself acknowledge, the extra words don't necessarily prevent a mistake. They could prevent a mistake if multiple creatures enter simultaneously, but not if creatures are cast or enter in separate events.

Which of those two seems more likely to come up?

There are some cards that mass blink, of course, and some that blink a couple creatures at once. so that does happen. I don't think there's any from this set spoiled so far, but maybe there will be. I think there are likely more single-target blink spells.

But what about when might someone want to cast multiple creatures from exile, which of course must be done one at a time? Well, one circumstance that comes to mind is when they play a card in this very set, which is called....hang on, let me just check... oh right, Extraordinary Journey, which can exile multiple creatures while allowing them to be cast, potentially multiple in a turn. Personally, that seems more likely to be relevant to the text of extraordinary journey to me, than mass-blink spells that might pop up in commander games every once in a blue moon. So much more relevant, in fact, that I'd say failing to read the "once per turn" text pretty much guarantees you're going to misplay your card sooner or later - probably sooner. So personally I think it's probably best that people just read their cards.
Another thing I'll note is that from a templating perspective, redundant triggers are usually combined with a 'one or more' clause - see stuff like Forth Eorlingas! and Malcolm, Keen-Eyed Navigator. Could they be written to trigger multiple times? Sure... but combining redundant triggers is generally preferred for Arena and MTGO, because manually stacking triggers is a pain. In this case, every additional hypothetical trigger is redundant, because the ability triggers only once or turn... so it seems pretty natural to be consistent with the 'one or more' wording used for redundant / combined triggers elsewhere.
I get that creating a single trigger rather than multiple may be desirable. But in the cases of those cards, it does functionally change how they work - for example, a single Stifle can prevent you become monarch even if you hit with 100 creatures, or similarly with treasures. But in the case of extraordinary journey it has (afaik, if anyone is a bigger badder rules guru feel free to correct me) zero impact on the mechanics of the card and is 100% aesthetic.

I agree that there's likely been formatting guidelines decided upon, likely to streamline online play, like those you outline, for mechanical reasons. But I think applying it to this sort of trigger is pointlessly legalistic and ugly, and nobody would be bothered or confused if it was formatted "inconsistently" by omitting the unnecessary words. If we lived in an alternate reality where EJ and other cards like it omitted the "one or more" text, and I came on here annoyed that it was "inconsistent", you'd rightly think I'd lost my damn mind.
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Post by Dunadain » 9 months ago

@DirkGently, what are you expecting from the people that still haven't invented a word for "enters the battlefield" or "instant or sorcery"?
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Post by Jemolk » 9 months ago

Dunadain wrote:
9 months ago
@DirkGently, what are you expecting from the people that still haven't invented a word for "enters the battlefield" or "instant or sorcery"?
I'd say he's expecting the most basic attempt at concision in places where it loses no relevant information. Probably a good thing to expect of them, TBH. Maybe if more people expected it of them, one of these decades they'd actually do something with it.
39 Commander decks and counting. I'm sure this is fine, and not at all a problem.

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Post by Dunadain » 9 months ago

Jemolk wrote:
9 months ago
Dunadain wrote:
9 months ago
@DirkGently, what are you expecting from the people that still haven't invented a word for "enters the battlefield" or "instant or sorcery"?
I'd say he's expecting the most basic attempt at concision in places where it loses no relevant information. Probably a good thing to expect of them, TBH. Maybe if more people expected it of them, one of these decades they'd actually do something with it.
Pretty sure we're on the same page...
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Post by Sporegorger_Dragon » 9 months ago

DirkGently wrote:
9 months ago
Whenever a nontoken creature enters the battlefield, if it entered from exile or was cast from exile, you draw a card. This ability triggers only once each turn.
DirkGently wrote:
9 months ago
Whenever one or more nontoken creatures enter the battlefield, if one or more of them entered from exile or was cast from exile, you draw a card. This ability triggers only once each turn.
I can actually think of a scenario where the two wordings might be interpreted differently.

With the first wording, when multiple creatures enter the battlefield from exile at the same time, an inexperienced player might assume that since all the creatures enter the battlefield simultaneously and all the triggers are also created simultaneously, because they are all created at the same time, they might argue it doesn't violate the "once per turn" clause.

They might argue that the ability checks if it has been triggered previously that turn to see whether it triggers or not, so it passes that check, then all triggers are created simultaneously.

With the second, it's explicit that only one trigger is created for the whole batch of creatures.
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Post by Jemolk » 9 months ago

Dunadain wrote:
9 months ago
Jemolk wrote:
9 months ago
Dunadain wrote:
9 months ago
@DirkGently, what are you expecting from the people that still haven't invented a word for "enters the battlefield" or "instant or sorcery"?
I'd say he's expecting the most basic attempt at concision in places where it loses no relevant information. Probably a good thing to expect of them, TBH. Maybe if more people expected it of them, one of these decades they'd actually do something with it.
Pretty sure we're on the same page...
Fair. Getting tone based on a short snippet of text is really hard.
39 Commander decks and counting. I'm sure this is fine, and not at all a problem.

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Post by WizardMN » 9 months ago

DirkGently wrote:
9 months ago
But I think applying it to this sort of trigger is pointlessly legalistic and ugly, and nobody would be bothered or confused if it was formatted "inconsistently" by omitting the unnecessary words.
The problem with the once per turn clause is that it is meant to prevent future triggers from triggering. But, how does that work when everything triggers at the same time? Yes, we obviously know that we just let the trigger go off once and it is done. Simple. Easy. "Smart" people get it right off the bat.

But, if it was worded the way you want, we could have 3 things enter from exile and then get into a discussion about "well, they all trigger at the same time; there is no way for any of them to prevent the next trigger since there has been no trigger yet". And, that is a tough argument to clear up using the rules as they are. "Once per turn" ensures that once triggered, it can't trigger again. But 3 simultaneous triggers means that nothing ever sees that it triggered once before. They just all happen at the same time. Which, from a pure rules perspective, introduces the possibility of a loophole if someone wanted to argue from that angle. Especially since the rules as they are don't actually define what happens in that case. Basically, the question comes down to "how does the game know 2 or more triggers are going to happen at the same time and then stop all but one trigger" and I don't think there is a great answer to that.

There are enough people/content creators in the world of Magic waiting for any slight hiccup in wording or rules to make a big deal out of it. Everyone knew how Serra Paragon worked and yet there was a bunch of talk about how it didn't work in the rules. Which was technically true. Even Hofri Ghostforge had his own questions even though the rules covered that card just fine. Of course, that was the result of a typo more than anything since it said "your graveyard" instead of "owner's graveyard" but it still opened the door to questioning. So I don't mind the added clarity to absolutely ensure no misunderstanding or miscommunication.

On a final note, while I can't find an exact situation where this might come up now, I wonder if Wizards might ever print something like Naban, Dean of Iteration but where it does something else instead of causing the trigger to happen again. If that did happen (say, it added a counter or something), the proposed wording doesn't offer much clarity on which creature entering is the one whose trigger "works". Whereas the current wording just means all of them did. A bit more nebulous of an argument since a situation doesn't exist yet that I can find, but who know what the future might hold in the regard.

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Post by yeti1069 » 9 months ago

Dunadain wrote:
9 months ago
@DirkGently, what are you expecting from the people that still haven't invented a word for "enters the battlefield" or "instant or sorcery"?
WotC takes a LOOOOOOOONG time to come around to new, more concise language.

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Post by pokken » 9 months ago

yeti1069 wrote:
9 months ago
enters the battlefield
"Appears" - done

(A WILD RAGAVAN APPEARS)

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Post by yeti1069 » 9 months ago

pokken wrote:
9 months ago
yeti1069 wrote:
9 months ago
enters the battlefield
"Appears" - done

(A WILD RAGAVAN APPEARS)
Or, "is summoned."

"Whenever <cardname> is summoned..."

This would harken back to the original language of Magic, as well as the flavor that feels like it's fallen by the wayside of the players being planeswalkers that are summoning creatures to their aid.

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Post by Hermes_ » 9 months ago

pokken wrote:
9 months ago
yeti1069 wrote:
9 months ago
enters the battlefield
"Appears" - done

(A WILD RAGAVAN APPEARS)
Unsummon no
yeti1069 wrote:
9 months ago
Dunadain wrote:
9 months ago
@DirkGently, what are you expecting from the people that still haven't invented a word for "enters the battlefield" or "instant or sorcery"?
WotC takes a LOOOOOOOONG time to come around to new, more concise language.
how long did it take them to drop the whole interrupt/instant thing and just make them all instants?
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Post by yeti1069 » 9 months ago

Hermes_ wrote:
9 months ago


how long did it take them to drop the whole interrupt/instant thing and just make them all instants?
6 years.

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Post by Serenade » 9 months ago

Asinine Antics is a way to trigger constellation a lot in blue. Not sure there's a huge payoff, but I will use it in Eutropia the Twice-Favored.

I LOVE that they are using the signpost legends for other commons/uncommons. Johann's Stopgap? Back for Seconds? I just want average-ish people having adventures. So tired of planeswalker BS.
Mirri, Cat Warrior counts as a Cat Warrior.

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Post by duducrash » 9 months ago

DirkGently wrote:
9 months ago
No, because I have the precise oracle wording memorized for every magic card ever printed (this is approximately a 12% exaggeration).
In the eldraine spirit lets test it. Say in your own words what questin beast is and does;



Man I'm dissapointed by the lack of wolves in this set :(

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Post by Dunadain » 9 months ago

It's impossible to read all the words on questing beast, everyone knows this.
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Post by yeti1069 » 9 months ago

duducrash wrote:
9 months ago
DirkGently wrote:
9 months ago
No, because I have the precise oracle wording memorized for every magic card ever printed (this is approximately a 12% exaggeration).
In the eldraine spirit lets test it. Say in your own words what questin beast is and does;

You should really pick a more challenging card.

And I think we'll see a few wolves. One legendary, at least.

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Post by DirkGently » 9 months ago

duducrash wrote:
9 months ago
DirkGently wrote:
9 months ago
No, because I have the precise oracle wording memorized for every magic card ever printed (this is approximately a 12% exaggeration).
In the eldraine spirit lets test it. Say in your own words what questin beast is and does;



Man I'm dissapointed by the lack of wolves in this set :(
Without reference…

4/4 for 2gg
Haste deathtouch vigilance
Can't be blocked by power 2 or less
When it hits a player it does that much damage to a planeswalker of theirs
Damage dealt by your creatures can't be prevented

Obviously I could template for magicese but I'm lazy

How did I do? I'm supposed to be working so I'm not going to check lol
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Post by Dunadain » 9 months ago

Questing Beast

Pretty much spot on, though I'd argue the COMBAT damage distinction is relevant.
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Post by Venedrex » 9 months ago

Dunadain wrote:
9 months ago
Questing Beast

Pretty much spot on, though I'd argue the COMBAT damage distinction is relevant.
Now we just need Questing Beast 2, Electric Boogaloo, that transforms for even more text.
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Post by duducrash » 9 months ago

Wait a minute... Questing Beast is legendary?
Venedrex wrote:
9 months ago
Now we just need Questing Beast 2, Electric Boogaloo, that transforms for even more text.
its DFC but its just text, no modality, no transformation costs. just pure gas

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Post by DirkGently » 9 months ago

Dunadain wrote:
9 months ago
Pretty much spot on, though I'd argue the COMBAT damage distinction is relevant.
I was pretty sure both clauses were combat damage but I was shortcutting a bit (I was in my car while doing deliveries so in a bit of a hurry). Anyway even if you don't believe me, I think that falls within 12% ;)

Pretty sure most long-time players can relate to the bizarre ability to memorize insane numbers of cards. Something about the information is extremely well-formatted for nerd brain operating systems.

@WizardMN that argument makes infinitely more sense to me than trying to partially-help people who misread large sections of the text. I kinda think they should just add an entry to the comp rules to cover it, but in fairness Extraordinary Journey is the most egregious example of the formats clumsiness - Crawling Infestation and all similar cards read decently since they don't need to use "one or more" twice in the same sentence.
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Post by WizardMN » 9 months ago

@DirkGently Yeah, I am definitely not disagreeing on how oddly it reads. Just outlining the potential reasons why they may have chosen to go that route. And coming from other situations where people don't understand that card text (such as Force of Vigor only getting 2 things max, for example) I am usually on the side of verbosity over brevity if that verbosity eliminates any ambiguity,

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Post by Dunadain » 9 months ago

Dang, so Thoughtseize at home wasn't actually the name of the card =/
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Post by duducrash » 9 months ago

If I dont get a single wolf on this set I will commit magic crimes.

In other news, Werefox Bodyguard rocks, I will 100% play it. The style seems what Bloomburrow plane

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Post by Venedrex » 9 months ago

So, Wotc just printed a 2 mana rock in Standard.

Did not see that coming. Of course, it is legendary, so you can't have a bunch out at a time, but, uh yeah I really was not expecting wotc to ever print another 2 mana rock.

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