Phelddagrif: Show Weakness to Hide Your Strength

[TheAmericanSpirit]

What does everyone think about Strix Serenade? I think it's worse than Swan Song but it IS another one mana Counterspell and that ain't nothing.

[TheGildedGoose]

What does everyone think about Strix Serenade? I think it's worse than Swan Song but it IS another one mana Counterspell and that ain't nothing.

I like it. While artifacts, creatures, and planeswalkers are the easiest permanent types to deal with when they're in play, especially for a deck with as much removal as this, with increasingly problematic commanders being printed the ability to shut that %$#% down for one mana is alluring.

[DirkGently]

I'm pretty off it tbh. Counterspells are a necessary evil - they're the only solution to certain types of threats - but those card types aren't usually those kinds of threats. There are obviously exceptions like thoracle and hoof but I don't see hoof coming down quickly enough that 1v2 mana is a big deal. If your meta is overrun with turbo thoracle builds then maybe but that seems real niche to me. In most other circumstances that come to mind, I'd prefer to be able to wait and use removal, or I'm fine with using a 2-3 mana counterspell.

Collective Reisistance is nice, albeit not exactly groundbreaking for us.

[sethmc]

Here are the three cards I'll be swapping in from MH3:

• Urza's Cave: Likely targets in my deck would be Pit of Offerings, Azorius Chancery or one of the surveil lands. Also good for color fixing or card advantage if we activate on the end step before our turn.
• Amphibian Downpour: As someone who's leaning more into neutralizing effects, I LOVE the design of this one. The floor will almost always be 1 copy since you can cast in response to an opponent spell. If there are 2 spells on the stack you can easily shut down all 3 opponents' commanders.
• Sink into Stupor // Soporific Springs: While I'm not a huge fan of bounce-to-hand removal, I love that this is a land that can be pitched as a blue card to Force of Negation/Force of Will.

Are there any other standout cards now that the set has been fully revealed?

My list for reference: https://www.moxfield.com/decks/d3IGIrru-Ua-Mhjnd1AvGA

[DirkGently]

Still waiting on all the precon cards, but there are a handful that stood out to me, besides the ones @sethmc mentioned (which are all definitely in consideration as well)

talon gates of madara - self ramp, pseudo-removal, weird card overall. Probably not quite but it's interesting.
sunken palace - strong effect, and one we can't use quite as strongly as I wish we could, but it's still definitely worth discussing. Pseudo-uncounterable for counterspells and wipes, or multi-target for removal seems ok, and we don't have that many uses for our spent spells in the current build.
horizon of progress - this is my big one, a finally not-trash Terrain Generator. Can probably cut Exploration now - this is far more durable and tutorable. Probably the biggest changeup from the set imo.
Null Elemental Blast - we can cast it easily, and it can counter or kill the vast majority of popular commanders, plus other random stuff. Not a shoe-in, but again I think it merits conversation.
Utter Insignificance - dunno why we got 2 of these cards in the same set but they're both solid. We can for sure pay that colorless cost if they have a disenchant.

[TheGildedGoose]

Amphibian Downpour: As someone who's leaning more into neutralizing effects, I LOVE the design of this one. The floor will almost always be 1 copy since you can cast in response to an opponent spell. If there are 2 spells on the stack you can easily shut down all 3 opponents' commanders.

Yet one more reason to worship our cantrip overlords. I quite enjoy this one as well.

Sink into Stupor // Soporific Springs: While I'm not a huge fan of bounce-to-hand removal, I love that this is a land that can be pitched as a blue card to Force of Negation/Force of Will

I also like Bridgeworks Battle a lot too. Phelddy is nigh immortal and in many ways this is a free removal spot in the deck.

Horizon of Progress is, of course, absurd.

[sethmc]

Great callouts Dirk! I missed a few of these.

talon gates of madara - self ramp, pseudo-removal, weird card overall. Probably not quite but it's interesting.

Seems like a solid target for land tutors that bring in tapped, like Urza's Cave or Archdruid's Charm. Can also bounce back to hand with Azorius Chancery to reuse the effect (same turn if you have the to put it into play again). Also gets around stax like Grand Abolisher.

horizon of progress - this is my big one, a finally not-trash Terrain Generator. Can probably cut Exploration now - this is far more durable and tutorable. Probably the biggest changeup from the set imo.

I'll definitely be replacing Exploration with this. Way more appealing since you can hold up mana for interaction, then use it at the end step before your turn to drop another land. Love that it could also generate to pay for Null Elemental Blast.

Null Elemental Blast - we can cast it easily, and it can counter or kill the vast majority of popular commanders, plus other random stuff. Not a shoe-in, but again I think it merits conversation.

After swapping in the 2 lands mentioned above, my list will be running 9 cards that could generate . Plus land tutors and potential from Mana Drain. That all seems like enough to make this worth running, though I'm not sure what this would replace.

Utter Insignificance - dunno why we got 2 of these cards in the same set but they're both solid. We can for sure pay that colorless cost if they have a disenchant.

Nice upgrade for our suite of neutralization options. I'll likely be replacing Mystic Subdual with this. It does beg the question of how many sources of are worth running to reliably pay for this or Null Elemental Blast.

[kylep33]

Here are the cards I added!!

Gitaxian Probe n probe]] - This is a one time use telepathy that is FREE, both mana AND card draw. I think it should be an auto include. a lot of times I jsut say, "go ahead and reveal your hand to everyone" and then everyone can see how "scary" someone is, and work together to stop them instead of stopping us. mahahahah

Talon Gates of Madara - This card is very good! a land! that can also ramp us! and can also temporarily remove a problematic creature! can also be fetched by crop rotation or our other lands which makes that toolbox even better.

Urza's Cave - another fetch any land card! works well with our current pacakge and the new talon gates of madara!!! can get us the clue lands if needed, or whatever else

Bridgeworks Battle // Tanglespan Bridgeworks - removal spell, untapped land. what more else could i want in this world

Sink into Stupor // Soporific Springs - read the previous description. lol

[PrimevalCommander]

Does Horizon of Progress really do the job as well as Exploration? I know this is a draw-go deck and there will be turns where there is mana unspent, but the deck already puts quite a bit of emphasis on card advantage in the land slot, which typically requires 4-6 mana to draw a card. The land is tutor-able, resistant to wipes, and has a low opportunity cost, but what it does is compete for a valuable resource, mana, that could be used to draw cards. I haven't played this deck, but in general Horizon looks like a poor replacement since it takes 4 mana for every additional land put into play.

I don't see many instances when you can activate this and Arch of Orazca in the same turn cycle. Which I'm sure isn't the point, but Exploration only ever costs for it's entire duration on the battlefield. I expect Exploration adds a land the turn it is cast, re-paying it's mana and being almost a free spell. It also allows both ramp + mana open for a card draw land activation. Horizon takes so much more mana to add even a single land into play I struggle to see this as such a huge boon to the deck. I'd rather tutor up Bonders' Enclave and draw an extra card, unless I am so overly flush with cards that I'd rather have the ramp. I'm not sure now often that scenario happens in this deck. From the outside looking in, Exploration looks like a better card, or maybe a "Both" situation.

[DirkGently]

@PrimevalCommander

Typically we're not in a situation where we really want to dump lands until fairly late. Our draw engines are, as you say, pretty expensive, so early-game it's not much of a problem. Even if we have a lot of lands in our starting hand alongside exploration, dumping lands isn't necessarily ideal since it makes us more of a threat.

As wipes have gotten better and better, having nonland permanents in play has become more of a liability. I've had plenty of games where exploration only gets to put a couple lands into play because I have to wipe a few turns later. Or even less - I play it because I'm not drawing lands and need to empty my hand of other cards, and then it gets wiped without doing anything at all. And then later I'm potentially wishing I had it available when I don't.

The low opportunity cost is kind of a huge deal. This isn't really the sort of deck where exploration is going to ramp us to victory, it's more of a nice-to-have (it's also significantly better with the loam version of the deck, which I've moved away from). I've been on the fence about cutting exploration straight-up since the pivot away from LFTL, and this gives me the option to retain the functionality without giving up a slot. 2 lands and exploration is a pretty bad hand, 2 lands and horizon is great. Being able to offload functions that aren't critical onto land slots is really valuable to ensuring consistency. Plus even with the ramp functionality aside, it's not a terrible land. Pretty close to a Reflecting Pool with the option to cash it out for a card in a pinch.

I think in the loam build, I could definitely see the argument for leaving in exploration since you can basically guarantee 2 land drops for quite a few turns. In the current build, though, I think horizon is the clear way to go. If you're low on cards, draw. If you're good on cards, ramp. And yes, activating draw lands or even multiple draw lands alongside this is very possible, we play for the loooong game.

[broktok]

Gitaxian Probe - This is a one time use telepathy that is FREE, both mana AND card draw. I think it should be an auto include. a lot of times I jsut say, "go ahead and reveal your hand to everyone" and then everyone can see how "scary" someone is, and work together to stop them instead of stopping us. mahahahah

This doesn't work if I remember correctly (although in a casual setting this is not that important). You LOOK at the hand, you may not reveal it. The owner of the hand may reveal it at any time of course, but if they refuse, you have to tell the table the content of the hand, and you may be lying