Parnesse, the Subtle Brush - I don't actually have a decklist I just want to understand

[DirkGently]

Parnesse, the Subtle Brush

Even as an amateur MtG politician I do not understand who this commander is supposed to appeal to and what you're supposed to do with it.

For starters, much like the not-quite-as-stupid-but-still-very-stupid Vazi, Keen Negotiator, the fact that Parnesse requires your deck to do a really specific thing - namely, copying spells - before it even has a chance to function is baffling. Add on top of that, both cards essentially require opponent buy-in to function as well. If you're ahead, people are pretty motivated to not use the treasure or not copy the spells unless they can use them against you, which is pretty not-great. But at least Vazi can give you some benefit from your opponent's self-interest in using the treasure, whereas Parnesse just...lets them copy it, and you get nothing. What the hell are you supposed to be giving them that's going to be (1) something they want to copy and (2) something you want them to copy?

Most spells that generates value - draw, tutor, token production, buffs, ramp, etc - seems really niche and/or risky to be useful to give you an opponent. You basically need to be in a situation where you know a third player is about to win in short order, and you're throwing absolutely anything at the wall to stop them. The way most commander decks work, you're as likely to end up digging them into a combo as anything else. You could also copy permanents, but there's a pretty limited number of ways to do that, and anything I can think of mostly ends up in a similarly niche space. You're basically just jumping through a ton of hoops to create a really crappy inconsistent Phelddagrif.

So that leaves basically just answers. Answers are at least a little more reliable since they can't go too far wrong...provided they don't target you, which presumably Parnesse is trying to prevent with...a whopping 4 life ward. Underwhelmed sigh. Counterspell copying is usually redundant, as are board wipes, so that already narrows things down considerably. But assuming the board state is such that a third player is the clear threat and you can count on the second player to do something about it...you're casting a removal spell, then copying that removal spell...so that, in a perfect case, you get a third removal spell directed where you want it? How often is killing 2 permanents not already sufficient to stymie their lead? Even with cards like Curtains' Call, it's pretty common to have one good target and one...eh, I guess...target. And the big payoff for (1) constructing your deck around copying spells (2) having a board state where there are at least 3 good targets and (3) you can count on one of your opponents targeting what you want is...removing one extra thing.

Looking through EDHrec is not explaining anything to me. None of the things people are copying make any sense. Completely incomprehensible that Denry Klin, Editor in Chief has fewer decks - he's not crazy busted but at least he makes some sort of sense. Maybe it's just too subtle for me.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

I mean, if your deck is all about casualty cards, it kinda makes more sense. But there's not enough of them for it to really matter, and it begs the question of why anyone would go through the effort of sacrificing a dude and building a deck with draft chaff in it all to let some rando profit for free?

I say the the second ability is flavor text. Instead, I'd build Ashenmoor Liege tribal with a bunch of cards like Bolt Bend to change targets at inopportune moments for incredible burn.

Edit: I admit I have no idea how many other cards exist that inflict damage for being targeted, but I do think the idea of playing control with a bunch of Shunt effects sounds dope.

[DirkGently]

Ok, here's a plan: play and copy a Spellskite. Then when your opponent foolishly casts a spell with a target…ping pong ping pong ping pong ping pong ping pong you're dead.

Edit: piss, it's not Ashenmoor Liege though, they can just choose not to pay the life and let it get countered.

Damn you parnesse, you foil me at every turn!!!

[kraus911]

Here's my take, and I'm planning on building her. Most grixis spellslinging decks are either helmed by a general who is an obvious threat, Kess, Dissident Mage and friends, or by a general who is there for the colors and doesn't scream threat. I think Parnesse is good for a spellslinging deck that wants to be nonthreatening but still have a general that CAN do something. Parnesse has a soft protection shell on your permanents for one. And her other ability to me isn't about casting removal spells, copying them, and letting someone else have a copy. It's about copying another player's ramp/tutor/removal and giving a copy of that copy to a third player. I wouldn't imagine copying my own spells as much as copying other people's and sharing them. Oh look, rampy ramperson is ramping, how about you and I get a copy of that.

She's not built for doing what you do with Pheldagriff, but I can see taking that play strategy and applying it to her. And where in Pheldy you don't play Capsize because then you magnify your threat potential, here you do play Reiterate to magnify your ability to deflect and interact. If an opponent is going to Beast Within someone else's thing you can copy it and then offer a copy to someone else.

Might not work, but it's interesting enough for me to try.

[DirkGently]

I wouldn't imagine copying my own spells as much as copying other people's and sharing them. Oh look, rampy ramperson is ramping, how about you and I get a copy of that.

Okay but why would you want to do that? You've turned a ramp spell into a symmetrical ramp spell...that's basically the same as having just countered it, which doesn't generally seem worth it. If you're using your commander to help opponents in an effort to lower your own threat profile, I feel like I'd rather just play Sol'kanar the Swamp King and at least score some cool points. And then you aren't locked into running spell copying effects either.

I feel like the goal ought to be to find somewhere where mutual self-interest can be exploited, but it's really hard with her effect. The option to copy permanent spells maybe has some legs although I can't really think of anything. You could give opponents a Bonder's Ornament I guess? but then you're still counting on them to activate it, and the copy you give yourself is mostly useless except as ramp.

[kraus911]

If you counter the ramp spell you just annoy the ramper, if you copy it and give a copy to another player you have more mana available and have forged good will. But you're not wrong in that's a lot of work for meh.

I do think you're right in that it seems like there's a potential for something here but it's just too clunky. It requires other stuff. Maybe if she had an ability to just copy a spell and give you a second copy if you give an opponent a copy, so you'd be up 2 spells and gifting 1. But that's not what she does.

I do know I wouldn't want to be filling my deck with spells to copy and gift, so she'd be a meta call. If you have a creature heavy meta she might just be a dud.

[DirkGently]

If you counter the ramp spell you just annoy the ramper, if you copy it and give a copy to another player you have more mana available and have forged good will. But you're not wrong in that's a lot of work for meh.

I do think you're right in that it seems like there's a potential for something here but it's just too clunky. It requires other stuff. Maybe if she had an ability to just copy a spell and give you a second copy if you give an opponent a copy, so you'd be up 2 spells and gifting 1. But that's not what she does.

I do know I wouldn't want to be filling my deck with spells to copy and gift, so she'd be a meta call. If you have a creature heavy meta she might just be a dud.

It seems like a lot of the "value" of her is based on things like generalized goodwill and annoyance, and things that basically exist outside the realm of actual strategy. Sure, a counterspell might annoy the ramper more depending on how they personally feel about such things, but strategically the end result is roughly the same. And giving away things - especially when you're beholden to your opponents to initiate the process - is relying on your opponents feeling charitable towards you later to get any real benefit from it (excluding the niche scenarios I laid out in the OP where one person is about to win and you're throwing things at the wall). There's no strategic reason for them to feel charitable towards you, especially since - once they become the threat - you're probably giving away resources to the other players instead. A major point of Phelddagrif is that you have complete control over when to give value to your opponents, and what sorts of value to give, so you can make explicit deals when you actually need to, or save someone you want kept alive, etc. Parnesse is like 10x the work for much less consistent results.

And if you're copying enemy spells, you're also restricted on timing in ways Phelddagrif isn't. I don't really see the point of copying enemy spells instead of your own - if they're your own, at least you pick out the spells that are most beneficial to donate. Copying enemy spells, it's a total crapshoot. They could be too strong to safely give away, they could be too inconsequential to be worth it, they could be niche effects for their particular deck, they might not have any at all...there's no reliability or control over the effect. Plus, y'know, the 6th time you copy their spell, they might start to think twice about casting instants and sorceries into your open mana.

Idk, it might actually end up being a good choice for me to try as a challenge-run deck that has to find a way to win despite just a dumpster-tier commander, but I feel like the objectively correct play is just going to be to not give opponents copies 90% of the time, and often not bother casting the commander at all, which is bleh.

[DirkGently]

Maybe the most obvious nail in the coffin for parnesse is Twinning Staff which costs 2 less, has no colored pips, and oh yeah YOU get the copy instead of an opponent. Obviously it can't be a commander and doesn't fully double storm but otherwise it's massively massively better.