State of the Format 2020

[Sheldon]

Now that the State of the Format article is freely available, here's your chance to comment.

https://articles.starcitygames.com/prem ... rmat-2020/

[pokken]

Please don't think that us doing something other than exactly the thing you want means that we're not listening.

May have said that a time or two recently, important sentiment. Listening doesn't mean instant capitulation to all requests.

I seriously applaud you guys for keeping your heads cool under tremendous pressure, and staying focused on doing the right things for the format.

[Shabbaman]

Thanks for posting the reminder that I could actually read it now. That paywall still hurts, as does the loss of the forum. The members of mtgnexus are kind though

[Sheldon]

I'm currently working on a forums solution.

[RxPhantom]

I wish there was something a bit more concrete about the RC's plans for peaceful coexistence with cEDH. I must say that I fervently object to banning cards solely for their benefit.

[MRHblue]

I wish there was something a bit more concrete about the RC's plans for peaceful coexistence with cEDH. I must say that I fervently object to banning cards solely for their benefit.

So what would a peaceful plan look like to you? Because the second half of that sounds like 'they can kick rocks', which doesn't exactly align.

[RxPhantom]

I wish there was something a bit more concrete about the RC's plans for peaceful coexistence with cEDH. I must say that I fervently object to banning cards solely for their benefit.

So what would a peaceful plan look like to you? Because the second half of that sounds like 'they can kick rocks', which doesn't exactly align.

Align with what exactly? My desire for more concrete specifics about the way forward?

[darrenhabib]

I wish there was something a bit more concrete about the RC's plans for peaceful coexistence with cEDH. I must say that I fervently object to banning cards solely for their benefit.

So what would a peaceful plan look like to you? Because the second half of that sounds like 'they can kick rocks', which doesn't exactly align.

What's the plan for making sure cEDH is ignored...I mean coexists...as long as it's ignored.

I do think that the Commander Advisory Group (CAG) should have at least one prolific cEDH champion.
The name I see pop up the most is ShaperSavant and I believe this person is also the administrator of the cEDH forums.
I think that is at least the first step in the right direction.

[cryogen]

Well they have Rachel Agnes, who from what I hear plays high power Commander. I suspect that if they were to add any cEDH personality to the CAG it would be Jim from Spike Feeders. Sheldon has praised him on more than one occasion.

[darrenhabib]

Well they have Rachel Agnes, who from what I hear plays high power Commander. I suspect that if they were to add any cEDH personality to the CAG it would be Jim from Spike Feeders. Sheldon has praised him on more than one occasion.

Although I am a fan of Rachel Agnes, my thoughts are that with the Paradox Engine ban, she can't have been coming from an cEDH perspective, if she was part of helping the decision making on that.
Cutting off a 5 mana play (expensive in cEDH terms) that helped diversify win conditions and thus decks, but then retaining others (Flash Hulk, etc) seems like there really isn't the healthy input from the more competitive scene in my opinion.
But it might that she laid it all out there and the rest of the RC/CAG basically ignored her input, but I suspect its more of a case of not really getting the required information across.

[cryogen]

Well they have Rachel Agnes, who from what I hear plays high power Commander. I suspect that if they were to add any cEDH personality to the CAG it would be Jim from Spike Feeders. Sheldon has praised him on more than one occasion.

Although I am a fan of Rachel Agnes, my thoughts are that with the Paradox Engine ban, she can't have been coming from an cEDH perspective, if she was part of helping the decision making on that.
Cutting off a 5 mana play (expensive in cEDH terms) that helped diversify win conditions and thus decks, but then retaining others (Flash Hulk, etc) seems like there really isn't the healthy input from the more competitive scene in my opinion.
But it might that she laid it all out there and the rest of the RC/CAG basically ignored her input, but I suspect its more of a case of not really getting the required information across.

Well I can't pretend to know her thought process, since I've never spoken with her nor ever seen a single word she has written about Commander.

To give her the benefit of the doubt though, the ban list is aimed at the "casual" side of the format, so she shouldn't be arguing from a strictly cEDH perspective in good conscience, regardless of her individual play style.

[MRHblue]

But it might that she laid it all out there and the rest of the RC/CAG basically ignored her input, but I suspect its more of a case of not really getting the required information across.

Isnt it much more likely all those things were discussed at length, and this decision was made because it benefits the most people? This whole idea that not immediately acting on inputs means they disregarded it isnt a helpful idea.

[Sinis]

I'm currently working on a forums solution.

Are old posts from the previous forum going to be available?

I had stored some decks in the decklist forum with the intent of returning to them once I had dismantled the decks and move parts to new decks, and I was rather dismayed that the forum crash seemed to erase my previous posts, decks and interactions with other posters.

Did anything survive?

[Shabbaman]

I'm currently working on a forums solution.

Are old posts from the previous forum going to be available?

I had stored some decks in the decklist forum with the intent of returning to them once I had dismantled the decks and move parts to new decks, and I was rather dismayed that the forum crash seemed to erase my previous posts, decks and interactions with other posters.

Did anything survive?

You can find your stuff with Google and then view the posts in the Google cache.

[onering]

Well they have Rachel Agnes, who from what I hear plays high power Commander. I suspect that if they were to add any cEDH personality to the CAG it would be Jim from Spike Feeders. Sheldon has praised him on more than one occasion.

Although I am a fan of Rachel Agnes, my thoughts are that with the Paradox Engine ban, she can't have been coming from an cEDH perspective, if she was part of helping the decision making on that.
Cutting off a 5 mana play (expensive in cEDH terms) that helped diversify win conditions and thus decks, but then retaining others (Flash Hulk, etc) seems like there really isn't the healthy input from the more competitive scene in my opinion.
But it might that she laid it all out there and the rest of the RC/CAG basically ignored her input, but I suspect its more of a case of not really getting the required information across.

Its this attitude right here that makes me wary of any attempt to cater to cEDH. If the choice is between banning a card that's hurting casual and leaving it unbanned because its helping cEDH, the RC should stick with casual every time. Because that's who the format was created for.

To be perfectly clear, this post comes across to me as the sort of entitlement shown by some of the more vocal of the cEDH community (a minority of them) that Sheldon was pushing back against. Just because they didn't do what you wanted doesn't mean they weren't listening. When you are in the minority, you need to expect that when your interests and the interests of the majority conflict, you are usually going to lose out. A reasonable expectation of cEDH being taken into account would be that if say, Flash, becomes mild to moderately problematic in casual the RC may go ahead and ban it despite it not quite rising to the level of bannable in casual because of the negative impact it has on cEDH, basically that cEDH pushes it over the edge to a ban.

[darrenhabib]

Well they have Rachel Agnes, who from what I hear plays high power Commander. I suspect that if they were to add any cEDH personality to the CAG it would be Jim from Spike Feeders. Sheldon has praised him on more than one occasion.

Although I am a fan of Rachel Agnes, my thoughts are that with the Paradox Engine ban, she can't have been coming from an cEDH perspective, if she was part of helping the decision making on that.
Cutting off a 5 mana play (expensive in cEDH terms) that helped diversify win conditions and thus decks, but then retaining others (Flash Hulk, etc) seems like there really isn't the healthy input from the more competitive scene in my opinion.
But it might that she laid it all out there and the rest of the RC/CAG basically ignored her input, but I suspect its more of a case of not really getting the required information across.

Its this attitude right here that makes me wary of any attempt to cater to cEDH. If the choice is between banning a card that's hurting casual and leaving it unbanned because its helping cEDH, the RC should stick with casual every time. Because that's who the format was created for.

To be perfectly clear, this post comes across to me as the sort of entitlement shown by some of the more vocal of the cEDH community (a minority of them) that Sheldon was pushing back against. Just because they didn't do what you wanted doesn't mean they weren't listening. When you are in the minority, you need to expect that when your interests and the interests of the majority conflict, you are usually going to lose out. A reasonable expectation of cEDH being taken into account would be that if say, Flash, becomes mild to moderately problematic in casual the RC may go ahead and ban it despite it not quite rising to the level of bannable in casual because of the negative impact it has on cEDH, basically that cEDH pushes it over the edge to a ban.

I'm casual player, so I completely agree with your words of wisdom. I actually think that cEDH players *shakes fist at* should be taken to the gas chamber. Minorities suck!

This is just plain offensive and wrong. - cryo

[onering]

Although I am a fan of Rachel Agnes, my thoughts are that with the Paradox Engine ban, she can't have been coming from an cEDH perspective, if she was part of helping the decision making on that.
Cutting off a 5 mana play (expensive in cEDH terms) that helped diversify win conditions and thus decks, but then retaining others (Flash Hulk, etc) seems like there really isn't the healthy input from the more competitive scene in my opinion.
But it might that she laid it all out there and the rest of the RC/CAG basically ignored her input, but I suspect its more of a case of not really getting the required information across.

Its this attitude right here that makes me wary of any attempt to cater to cEDH. If the choice is between banning a card that's hurting casual and leaving it unbanned because its helping cEDH, the RC should stick with casual every time. Because that's who the format was created for.

To be perfectly clear, this post comes across to me as the sort of entitlement shown by some of the more vocal of the cEDH community (a minority of them) that Sheldon was pushing back against. Just because they didn't do what you wanted doesn't mean they weren't listening. When you are in the minority, you need to expect that when your interests and the interests of the majority conflict, you are usually going to lose out. A reasonable expectation of cEDH being taken into account would be that if say, Flash, becomes mild to moderately problematic in casual the RC may go ahead and ban it despite it not quite rising to the level of bannable in casual because of the negative impact it has on cEDH, basically that cEDH pushes it over the edge to a ban.

I'm casual player, so I completely agree with your words of wisdom. I actually think that cEDH players *shakes fist at* should be taken to the gas chamber. Minorities suck!

Great job doing %$#% all to refute the points. Your strawman looks really weak btw. I offered an example of what reasonably accommodating cEDH would look like. I believe that they should be taken into account, but I disagree strongly with catering to them. By catering to them, I mean giving their needs priority over the needs of casual or the needs of maintaining the format. I'm wary of attempts to change the philosophy of the format to accommodate cEDH because a minority of cEDH players are loud, vocal, obnoxious, and frankly don't give a %$#% about the format beyond tournaments, and I have no interest in seeing them get their way. More reasonable cEDH players, the majority, lack the myopic Reddit view of the format and should be listened to. But if you equate suggesting reasonable accomodations to the minority as shutting them out entirely, and insinuate that unless that minority's concerns are placed above the concerns of the vast majority that the RC and CAC aren't taking the minorities concerns into account, then I'm afraid your an example of the sort of entitled attitude Sheldon was talking about.

Doesn't seem like you stopped to consider that the cEDH perspective of PE was brought up and the points were well made but the RC determined that it's negative casual impact outweighed it's positive contributions to cEDH. No, must be that they just ignores cEDH or that the people who brought up cEDH concerns didn't make their case well, couldnt be that the cEDH viewpoint lost on the merits.

When you are the minority, you shouldn't be getting your way over the majority in most cases. Let's use pizza as an example. 4 people order a pizza, 3 want pepperoni and 1 doesn't. Under normal circumstances, the 3 should get their way, not the 1. That doesn't mean that the 1 should never get their way, if they are allergic to pepperoni then their concerns are more important than the majority's. If it's just preference though, the 1 who'd rather not have pepperoni better not expect to have the other 3 that do now to their whims, because that's a diva mindset.

Btw, I'm going to be upfront that I don't consider you, in particular, to have a very good handle on what's good for the format. I remember back on Sally when you were peacocking over the mtgo banlist when it replaced the real one, saying how much better it would be and telling everyone who was disappointed that it was the future of edh and talking %$#% on the RC, only for that banlist to predictably turn into a complete debacle and failure and WotC being forced to immediately announce the return of the real banlist. If I had acted the way you did, I'd be pretty embarrassed and probably rethink my views on the format, but you do you.

[darrenhabib]

Its this attitude right here that makes me wary of any attempt to cater to cEDH. If the choice is between banning a card that's hurting casual and leaving it unbanned because its helping cEDH, the RC should stick with casual every time. Because that's who the format was created for.

To be perfectly clear, this post comes across to me as the sort of entitlement shown by some of the more vocal of the cEDH community (a minority of them) that Sheldon was pushing back against. Just because they didn't do what you wanted doesn't mean they weren't listening. When you are in the minority, you need to expect that when your interests and the interests of the majority conflict, you are usually going to lose out. A reasonable expectation of cEDH being taken into account would be that if say, Flash, becomes mild to moderately problematic in casual the RC may go ahead and ban it despite it not quite rising to the level of bannable in casual because of the negative impact it has on cEDH, basically that cEDH pushes it over the edge to a ban.

I'm casual player, so I completely agree with your words of wisdom. I actually think that cEDH players *shakes fist at* should be taken to the gas chamber. Minorities suck!

I'm wary of attempts to change the philosophy of the format to accommodate cEDH because a minority of cEDH players are loud, vocal, obnoxious, and frankly don't give a %$#% about the format beyond tournaments, and I have no interest in seeing them get their way.

When you are the minority, you shouldn't be getting your way over the majority in most cases. Let's use pizza as an example. 4 people order a pizza, 3 want pepperoni and 1 doesn't. Under normal circumstances, the 3 should get their way, not the 1. That doesn't mean that the 1 should never get their way, if they are allergic to pepperoni then their concerns are more important than the majority's. If it's just preference though, the 1 who'd rather not have pepperoni better not expect to have the other 3 that do now to their whims, because that's a diva mindset.

We seem to be on the same page, cEDH players are loud, vocal, obnoxious, and frankly don't give a %$#% about the format. Something to do with their beady eyes and sweaty armpits.
I too like to pigeon hole thousands of people into a particular box, because they definitely are just trying to ruin the format because they like evil for fun.
Putting an attitude label on a play style is a healthy thing to do in both your and my opinion.

Thing is you know cEDH players are pepperoni haters, trust in them to dislike all things that taste good.

This is unnecessarily hostile. - cryo

[DirkGently]

I think it's pretty ridiculous to keep a card unbanned from all EDH play that was really annoying in casual play (PE) for balance in cEDH.

But I don't see any problem with banning a card from all EDH play that's problematic for cEDH play and either virtually unused (flash) or also pretty annoying (hulk) in casual play.

Hulk I find particularly annoying in pickup games because, much like teferi, sometimes it's going to be used fairly and sometimes it's going to instantly win the game, and (depending on the hulk piles) you don't get to find out which until its too late to do anything about it. If it got re-banned I'd be quite okay with it.

[cryogen]

Darren, I don't know what's going on, but the things you are saying are just completely untrue. I think you need to step back from the keyboard for a bit, because something is definitely going on right now.

[onering]

I'm casual player, so I completely agree with your words of wisdom. I actually think that cEDH players *shakes fist at* should be taken to the gas chamber. Minorities suck!

I'm wary of attempts to change the philosophy of the format to accommodate cEDH because a minority of cEDH players are loud, vocal, obnoxious, and frankly don't give a %$#% about the format beyond tournaments, and I have no interest in seeing them get their way.

When you are the minority, you shouldn't be getting your way over the majority in most cases. Let's use pizza as an example. 4 people order a pizza, 3 want pepperoni and 1 doesn't. Under normal circumstances, the 3 should get their way, not the 1. That doesn't mean that the 1 should never get their way, if they are allergic to pepperoni then their concerns are more important than the majority's. If it's just preference though, the 1 who'd rather not have pepperoni better not expect to have the other 3 that do now to their whims, because that's a diva mindset.

We seem to be on the same page, cEDH players are loud, vocal, obnoxious, and frankly don't give a %$#% about the format. Something to do with their beady eyes and sweaty armpits.
I too like to pigeon hole thousands of people into a particular box, because they definitely are just trying to ruin the format because they like evil for fun.
Putting an attitude label on a play style is a healthy thing to do in both your and my opinion.

Thing is you know cEDH players are pepperoni haters, trust in them to dislike all things that taste good.

This is unnecessarily hostile. - cryo

I'd say it's easier to strawman than to actually address the points of a post, but you seem to be struggling badly at setting up the strawman so maybe it takes more skill than I thought.

I direct you again to how I said that most cEDH players are reasonable and should be taken into consideration. I only call out those players that have a garbage attitude and expect the format to revolve around them, which I have repeatedly stated I believe to be a minority, and probably a small minority, of cEDH players. I don't need to assume a damn thing about them, I am reacting to their attitude and nothing else. I didn't pigeonhole them, they did it to themselves. And when you %$#% talk the RC, assume the worst motivations of the CAC, play the victim, act like the format should be exactly what you want, and generally post the kind of replies you've been doing in this thread, you hop right in that box of your own volition.

The fact remains that EDH was created as a casual format, has been promoted and maintained as a casual format, and is enjoyed by the vast majority of the playerbase as a casual format. A tiny slice of the community thinks that the format should revolve around the tournament scene, because that's what they like, but that doesn't mean they should get their way. It's fine that they enjoy taking the format in that direction, but they shouldn't be able to force their preferred version on everyone else. Again, most cEDH players understand this, it's a minority of them that think that only tournaments matter in an explicitly casual format. It's the sort of morons on Reddit who brigaded a tournament report that showed flash hulk not dominating because the tournament didn't allow proxies. I don't feel that they should be catered to because their concerns are so far removed from the core of the format that following their lead will lead to ruin, as it did on mtgo. Reasonable cEDH players on the other hand? I could see their influence tipping the balance on a borderline card like Hulk or a card like flash. Hulk getting rebanned would be the correct choice as it is more borderline bannable in casual than flash while still solving the problem in cEDH, so banning it sets the reasonable precedent that cEDH concerns can push a borderline card over the line, presenting a workable way forward to help cEDH without compromising the core of the format. That goal isn't helped by your attitude.

[darrenhabib]

Don't worry @onering, even when you get a bit grumpy, I still love you my brother from another mother

[pokken]

A tiny slice of the community thinks that the format should revolve around the tournament scene

Again, most cEDH players understand this, it's a minority of them that think that only tournaments matter in an explicitly casual format.

Not to overly quibble or anything but I haven't seen many people obsessed with the tournament scene so much as specifically the state of highest level play. I play CEDH quite a bit and we almost never have tournaments--easily 50-1 tournament games to non-tournament games.

What I have seen on Reddit is largely three groups of CEDH players:

1) We accept the RC's charter as for the casual meta and do not care if they ban flash

--> This is me, and a very small subset of the vocal reddit population

2) We accept the RC's charter for the casual meta but believe they should make an exception for (1-3 cards including flash and 0-2 others), and we are varying degrees of upset about the neglect in not doing this (from volcano of rage to slightly irked).

--> This group is the biggest

3) We disagree with the RC's charter entirely and want the format regulated for competitive play by another group,

--> This group is smaller than group 1 but 10 times as loud and on average 20 times as obnoxious

The last group is big enough to be a group imho to be 'labeled' since I see all kinds of people slinging things like 'wotc should take over the format and regulate it for tournaments and leave rule 0 for filthy casuals.'

Honestly, I do think it is very important not to paint group 2 (who has a point) with the group 3 brush. And there is surely a subset of group 3 who have some decent points and are polite about it, but it has not really been my experience with numerous folks of this view I have encountered.

** I'll admit that at times I have not been a huge fan of the RC's take on things and still have doubts about how the relationship between them and WOTC can continue to work long term. That said, the more I have watched this drama unfold and also learned more about WOTC's rather liimited understanding of commander balancing, I am flipped back pretty hard toward supporting RC's continued existence. Just the fact that they have stood pat and refused to make kneejerk responses to the competitive parade really raised my estimation of them.

[toctheyounger]

I'm personally just an advocate for 'can't we all get along?'.

I'm well aware there's folk out there who don't believe there's a middle ground that suits cEDH as well as EDH players in terms of banlists and format governance, but I think they're wrong, and until it's proven otherwise I'll stick with that as my general ethos. Sure, there's jerks on both sides of the fence, but we don't feed trolls, we ignore them because there's no point engaging them. Ultimately we all play this game for enjoyment, and there's no reason one groups enjoyment impinges on the other; I just can't see it, outside of the whole pubstomping thing - but we've already established that that's not something we tolerate or cater for.

If it really is just Flash I don't think I've ever seen it played, so casual loses nothing by saying goodbye to it. And that whole slippery slope argument is pretty farcical to be honest; It's pretty well established that the cEDH meta is chock full of Flash and not much else. Turn the tables and see if you'd enjoy the same as a casual player - I'd want to see it banned if it was the determining factor in victory for the vast majority of my games. And I don't think it would be kowtowing to social pressure to see it banned either. There's clearly a problem with that part of the format, and the impact on the other side of the format is infinitesimal.

Thread derailed long enough, it really isn't the vast issue everyone makes it out to be. There's a solution in there somewhere, let's just not get twisted out of shape while Sheldon et al find it.

[pokken]

It's pretty well established that the cEDH meta is chock full of Flash and not much else.

I guess I should change my screenname to quibblebot, but it's not really nearly as uniform as the sky-is-falling crowd makes it out to be. Honestly, Oracle feels like it buffed Consult by reducing its cost by typically 2 mana and a card way more than it buffed Flash Hulk.

In my meta the Kess player is killing it. Hulk turns every game into a grind and Kess dominates the grind by having the inevitability of being able to force through a Yawg's will with 7 counterspells in the bin (because of the ability to just re-cast the yawg's will from the yard, for example).

I am sleeving up the accepted Sushi hulk deck to give it a go soon but the people on it in my meta are not winning as much as you'd expect.