[mtgnexus] Random Card of the Day - North Star

[pokken]

with 3sphere, but in my experiences 3sphere is more effective the more competitive decks are

Up to a point. AT the CEDH level my experience has been that Trinisphere gets the table combo'd out more often than it does anything useful

[Inkeyes22]

I do run Signets in most every non-G deck that is at least 2 colors. I do have access to lots of other rocks, but I don't like to change them up and since I sold most of my stuff about 2.5 years ago I try to not spend a ton of $$ on Magic. Last month I think I spent less than $30. The month before that was even less. I do plan on buying several of the Jumpstart packs, I really like some of the cards and the basics that I have seen are really awesome. I am hoping to get the Angels/Phyrexians/Dogs so far. I might not even pick up the M21 Fat pack (which will be a first for me, I have bought a Fat Pack for everything since Nemesis) and instead pick up more Jumpstart.

[onering]

I'd much rather have rocks than dorks. If rocks are vulnerable to removal, dorks are even more so, and more likely to get swept up as collateral damage. So I only run dorks if there is synergy.

Land ramp is better than playing rocks, but it also is usually more expensive Mana wise. Signets are great, even in green.

[pokken]

Playing rocks in green is a pretty big sacrifice imho. The antisynergy with bane of progress and collector ouphe and even creeping corrosion is bad news.

Equipment and aura decks would generally be the exception and most of those decks would much rather have more targets for their pants than a Mana rock imho.

Signets in green ought to be a rare exception in my opinion. Too many things that should take precedence. If you're playing a signet before nature's lore in particular I find that really suspect.

Hopefully we'll get a three visits reprint this year

[3drinks]

Monday, July 13th, 2020; Vivid Lands

These are +10yrs old and I'm still seeing these commonly crop up, even outside of R-Pool decks. Why? Even gates are better, right? Or the new tapduals from M21.

[Mookie]

I'm not a fan of Vivids. They may be fine if your running 4C or 5C, but in 3C they're outclassed by trilands, and in 2C they're outclassed by pretty much anything - guildgates, refuges, gainlands... Ultimately though, my primary complain with them is the additional bookkeeping - every time I need to tap one for mana, I need to make sure I don't accidentally knock over the die, which just sort of annoys me. There are also a bunch of untapped options available, even on a budget.

The one situation that I'll call them out as being good for is casting off-color spells for a commander like Sen Triplets. Most modern cast effects let you spend any color (ex: Gonti, Lord of Luxury), but older effects often require the exact color of mana, so you need to be able to produce off-color mana. I'd still run Exotic Orchard and Fellwar Stone first, but after those there are still plenty of options, like Spire of Industry.

[not-a-cube]

By default I try not to use to many taplands, so the vivid's are never an include. Only deck I've ever used them in is Atraxa, Praetors' Voice, where they were decent. Although that was 4 years ago and my mana base has expanded alot, so i'm not sure if I would still run them today.

In general: Not worth it, maybe in 4-5 color budget builds.

[folding_music]

my take on Vivid lands is that I recently took them out of my Rasputin proliferate deck for two islands. giggle
don't take me as a weathervane for good cards, though, I'm still running four storage lands (Sand Silos kinda thing)

[DirkGently]

Ooh, I've been waiting for these to pop up at some point. So I can give me extremely nuanced analysis of them. Namely:

I HAAAAAAAAAATE THESE LANDS.

Three reasons:

1) They're terrible. Always ETBT and the fixing is still mediocre. There are so many better options.

2) They throw these into so many precons. Including, of all things, 2-color decks, which is just horrific. There are a million trashy etbt duals that would make more sense.

3) Most importantly, counters on lands in the WORST. Lands are going to get tapped, moved around, reorganized all the time during play, and keeping a dice on one of them - let alone multiples of them - is super annoying. Honestly, if I'm playing an out-of-the-box precon that's cursed to run these damn things, I usually rip the counters off once I've got sufficient fixing from other lands. It's fair enough for funky, important counters like eon counters on Magosi, the Waterveil. But for minor fixing? Ugh, kill it with fire.

I do have one of the five in my collection, the blue one, specifically in case I want to build Chisei, Heart of Oceans, since a land that keeps Chisei on board to set up better targets on subsequent turns (such as a saga) seems worth it entering tapped. Just for fixing, though, ew, no, never. I'd rather die that fart around with managing counters on my lands.

[Wallycaine]

I think, from an extreme budget perspective, they're defensible in 3 color decks and up. While yes, tri lands are better, you only get 1, maybe 2 of those. And they're slightly better than guild gates and gain lands for fixing in 3c. So it's at least defensible, though they're almost certainly among the first to go once you upgrade your fixing, as even stuff like scrylands are better, despite also etb tapped.

[Sinis]

Monday, July 13th, 2020; Vivid Lands

Neyh. Not much more to say about them. I like their fixing, but I think it's the book-keeping I hate the most about them. I'd consider them in 3-colour decks, but realistically, I haven't played them in a very, very long time.

[Outcryqq]

3) Most importantly, counters on lands in the WORST. Lands are going to get tapped, moved around, reorganized all the time during play, and keeping a dice on one of them - let alone multiples of them - is super annoying. Honestly, if I'm playing an out-of-the-box precon that's cursed to run these damn things, I usually rip the counters off once I've got sufficient fixing from other lands. It's fair enough for funky, important counters like eon counters on Magosi, the Waterveil. But for minor fixing? Ugh, kill it with fire.

Yes, this 100x. I run them in a janky Atraxa, Praetors' Voice deck and I simply hate the logistics of keeping counters on my lands.
Edit: @ vivid lands

[Dunharrow]

I am convinced that if they were not in precons you would never see them (outside of narrow synergies). These lands are terrible. I am going to write Maro and ask that WOTC replace these in precons going forward.

[3drinks]

At least the art on vivid creek is beautiful.

[RxPhantom]

What can I say that hasn't already been said? They're annoying and obsolete.

[ilovesaprolings]

I hate this land. But i actually love them. But i hate them.
I love them because i used them a lot when i played my Ghave precon with no upgrades and my skill level love was so low. They taught me HOW. MUCH. %$#%. ETB. LANDS. SUCK. These garbage things made me lose so many games. A lot. Thanks to them i improved as a player and never fell into the trap of playing etb lands, while my friends sometimes try to run gates or refugees.
And i hate them because they are hot crap. Burn all the vivid lands.

[Hawk]

As noted, these are terrible. Even in a deck like Atraxa, Praetors' Voice they are very marginal for a budget player, and logistically annoying. For any other deck, I think guildgates have finally surpassed them due to the existence of Gatecreeper Vine, District Guide, Circuitous Route, and other synergy cards - and guildgates are also terrible and I despise running them anywhere unless I'm explicitly trying to win with Maze's End.

What is especially baffling to me is why these are so prevalent in precons, as they seem to me in theory and in practice to be a really poor experience for newer players:

- They are, as mentioned, logistically annoying. How many counters did I still have? Did that die move? Did I remember to pull a counter? Do I even have counters around or am I using scrap paper?

- They can often run into "too good to use" syndrome (Good is relative here) - "sure, I could cast this black card off my Vivid Creek now, but then I don't have black mana until I draw a swamp and if my commander dies...nah, I'll just pass turn".

- It takes a long time for a new player to figure out that they didn't lose because their Shivan Dragon wasn't as powerful and awesome as my Hellkite Tyrant (although that was probably part of it) - they lost because half their mana EtB tapped. EtB tapped lands are a trap, and every one included makes the play experience worse, but unless that player is enfranchised enough to play online or put in dozens and dozens of games, I think they learn that lesson more slowly than learning that Angel's Mercy is horrific because the punishment for doing so is so far removed from the consequences. It's instantly apparent when you spend a turn to gain 7 and then immediately take 10 to your opponent's board that Mercy is awful but the EtB tapped lands sorta sneak up on players I think.

I totally get why they aren't just marginally-more-playable Evolving Wilds instead (shuffling 100 cards sucks). But honestly, Gainlands and Guildgates should be where it's at (as well as reprinting Exotic Orchard and Command Tower every year). Better would be to print good EtB untapped lands until they are as cheap as Tower and Orchard - I'd love for them to print the painlands to the ground to normalize that 3-4 damage over the course of a match is a small price to pay for salvation.

[Sinis]

I am convinced that if they were not in precons you would never see them (outside of narrow synergies). These lands are terrible. I am going to write Maro and ask that WOTC replace these in precons going forward.

I think this is a chicken and the egg thing. I would venture Vivids were in precons because they were frequently played in decks before precons were around.

I have an original set of Lorwyn Vivids because I played before the first Commander precons, and we used them pretty commonly around 2009-2011 for 3/5 colour decks, and some enemy-coloured 2-colour decks. The availability of mana fixing is different these days, but, Vivid lands totes saw popular play before.

We have a different view of things now, but when you look at the release of non-basic lands in general, a complete cycle of crappy ETB tapped enemy duals didn't even exist until Return to Ravnica's Guildgates (amazingly, Innistrad's enemy checklands predate the first ETB tapped enemy lands).* There were the shard lands and the Lorwyn Tribal lands, but if you were playing Izzet or Orzhov (for example), your options were actually quite limited. This could matter a lot if you were playing something with a colour-intense cost (like an Elder Dragon, OG Ghost Council of Orzhova or Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind).

That said, I don't believe there's any particular reason for Vivids to see play now.

*: I'm totally forgetting about the Tempest ETB tapped painlands. I remember playing Pine Barrens and Caldera Lake. Man, times have changed.

[onering]

Playing rocks in green is a pretty big sacrifice imho. The antisynergy with bane of progress and collector ouphe and even creeping corrosion is bad news.

Equipment and aura decks would generally be the exception and most of those decks would much rather have more targets for their pants than a Mana rock imho.

Signets in green ought to be a rare exception in my opinion. Too many things that should take precedence. If you're playing a signet before nature's lore in particular I find that really suspect.

Hopefully we'll get a three visits reprint this year

It's anti synergy with a few cards, but I find it worth the sacrifice. I don't run rocks over nature's lore, I run rocks in addition to nature's lore, three visits (online), farseek, and usually cultivate and Kodama's reach. To me, the benefit of green is that you get to play all of those sweet land ramp spells in addition to the relevant signets and best cheap rocks. So a Grixis decks may have the three relevant signets plus arcane, Mana crypt, sol ring, Mana vault, and grim monolith, with a couple other relevant rocks like fellwar stone or talismans, between 8-12 depending on the build, while a jund deck would have the the same up to monolith, then the rest would be spell based ramp that I mentioned, and then maybe another couple rocks or ramp spells depending on the build, so between 13-16 cards that just ramp. So Green ends up adding ramp rather than replacing it, which is worth it because of the quality. To me, this is the biggest benefit of green, always being the best at ramping, it's biggest strength.

[onering]

I think the Vivids are an artifact of a past age. They were good at the time, due to the lack of availability of options and the slower pace of the format. They are pretty good at fixing mana, but their weaknesses, being as slow as they are and unreliable in the long run, make them bad today. This was an era when Rupture Spire was playable. Obviously well enfranchised players had better options if they could afford a fetch, dual, shock package, but budget options were slim, and these did a fair enough job in three color, ESPECIALLY in wedges, where the shard lands couldn't help you. In today's game, they suck, because the format has sped up yes, but even more so because the budget options have increased both in quantity and quality.

As for the book keeping issues, I never thought these suffered much from using counters (other than running out). Its two counters with no way to make more on its own, its not hard to throw a couple pennies on it and remove them as you use it. Storage lands I can understand since the numbers both increase and decrease and by varying amounts, and weird counters that mark things on lands can be confusing, but this is about as straightforward as it can be. You don't have to think about it until you use it, and that's the only time you usually will remove them. It becomes more confusing with proliferate and other stuff, but those mechanics are inherently heavy on book keeping.

[Dragonlover]

God I hate these, for basically every reason already stated. I just wanted to add my disdain to the pile.

Dragonlover

[TheAmericanSpirit]

I kinda wish they had been designed a la the new thriving lands or like the depletion lands. Would have made llorwyn-shards standard a lot less nightmarish.

[Inkeyes22]

I still love them!

But, ummm... yeah I don't run them unless it is 4+ colors and I am really stretching to build another deck. Also I have a habit of building a deck, and after a few games tearing it apart.

I loved Lorwyn/Shards standard... I love me some Cruel Control. I guess I am wierd, cause I loved Urza's/Masques, Onslaught/original Mirridon, and RtR/Theros standard too.

[Hermes_]

I've kept them in the DRACONIC DOMINATION deck,but i also added amulet of vigor

[3drinks]

Tuesday, July 14th, 2020; Tatyova, Benthic Druid

So this is a pretty hot button card as far as the state of the format goes, right? Let's dish!