Banlist update: 7 cards banned for offensive imagery/names

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Post by Segrus » 4 years ago

UnfulfilledDesires wrote:
4 years ago
That's a good point. It's possible they could base it on original art, which would save Fog. Given the response from folks to this first round of bans, including Rich Shay's criticism, I rather doubt they'll ban a bunch more cards. We'll see. I've just decided to be done with Harold McNeill. Though I like his MTG artwork aesthetically, I've long felt icky about having art by someone sympathetic to fascism on my cards. & unlike Terese Nielsen, who also holds politics I deeply disagree with, McNeill's art only appears on a few relevant cards, so getting away from it is relatively easy.
If you don't like playing with cards he made art for, please don't. No reason you should feel like you have to. While Sylvan Library is expensive enough I don't have many copies of, Enduring Renewal is too unique of an effect for me to get away from.

And while it seems WOTC received some amount of criticism for their move the other day, I do feel like it's too late for them to back down now. Especially after boldly stating they intend to continue looking through cards. I expect there to be more bans. How many more bans I don't know, but I'm hesitating on building any more decks until they start saying one way or another (because I regularly try to use old cards).

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Post by onering » 4 years ago

Yawgmoth Reborn wrote:
4 years ago
This is horrible. Is this my Magic community that doesn't realize that this is merely a game? Images that are evocative and provocative of thought are offensive? Words are violence? I'm tired of this. This is the thing that will kill my active participation in mtg. Real life politics have no place in this game. Thanks to Wizards for making a great game. No thanks to making decisions based on real life politics.

Well, bye.

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Post by onering » 4 years ago

I mean, when it comes to the non racist art he did, just alter that %$#%. Most of it is pretty mediocre anyway even before knowing it comes from a neo nazi. Alter Sylvan library to look like a library in the woods instead of what he drew, which appears to be some sort of Eldritch vagoo monster.

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Post by Sinis » 4 years ago

Segrus wrote:
4 years ago
Enduring Renewal is too unique of an effect for me to get away from.
Sigil of the New Dawn is totes the same card.

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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

I think I draw the line mentally at expunging all the art from someone who is a bad dude. I'm not firm on that I guess it just feels too far to me.

What if he changes his mind and apologizes do we unburn all the otherwise inoffensive cards? Feels like banning cards for the content of the artists' character is just too much..

I'm firmly on the side of banning cards with offensive content but offensive artists feels like...

More of a don't commission new art or reprint the old stuff is more of a balanced response?

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Post by Legend » 4 years ago

The decision to ban the cards was a spineless, knee jerk reaction originating in fear and manifesting in a good will gesture. But it was so poorly executed that it isn't respectable, especially in light of other dubious practices the company has exhibited. They should have thought it out, made a plan, had an announcement, a statement explaining that some cards will be banned in the near future for being culturally or racially insensitive. Perhaps a watch list. Provide dates or roll them into the regular ban schedule, and so forth. Perhaps even provide criteria for what qualifies a card to be banned for such reasons. It's a gutless corporate move and clearly coming from a progressive, politically correct, SJW psychosis rather than a balanced view of things.
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Post by onering » 4 years ago

Legend wrote:
4 years ago
The decision to ban the cards was a spineless, knee jerk reaction originating in fear and manifesting in a good will gesture. But it was so poorly executed that it isn't respectable, especially in light of other dubious practices the company has exhibited. They should have thought it out, made a plan, had an announcement, a statement explaining that some cards will be banned in the near future for being culturally or racially insensitive. Perhaps a watch list. Provide dates or roll them into the regular ban schedule, and so forth. Perhaps even provide criteria for what qualifies a card to be banned for such reasons. It's a gutless corporate move and clearly coming from a progressive, politically correct, SJW psychosis rather than a balanced view of things.
Yeah, wizards are totes politically correct sjws, that's why they let a 7/11 joke see print and apparently are %$#% to black employees and content creators.

I agree it seems like a spineless move, but because the timing makes it look like an attempt to draw attention away from the things the two posted letters accused them of and is a low effort way to make it look like they're doing something. They banned one card that people have been complaining about for 20 years, a handful of cards nobody cares about, and two cards that are somewhat borderline but have been the topic of concern for some time now (though Jihad was more controversial in the 2000s, for obvious reasons).

So no, this isn't spawned by "progressive, politically correct psychosis" (which is what normal people call "not being a dick"). It's likely a corporate entity being called out for bad behavior and hoping a token gesture will appease people so they don't have to make real change. If they do end up making real changes to their corporate culture, then this will have been a clumsy attempt at a show of good faith while they started fixing things on the inside.

And for everyone complaining about "sjw's" and politics effecting magic, ask yourself a few questions. Does this make you feel uncomfortable? Does this decision make you feel like your views are being disregarded and ignored? Does this decision make you feel unwelcome in some way? Do you feel like you shouldn't have to deal with political issues that upset you when you sit down to play a fantasy based game to unwind and destress? Does that almost feel like a personal attack, like wizards is pushing a viewpoint down your throat whether you like it or not? Do you feel like it sends the signal that you should just smile and deal with it no matter how you feel? Would you be upset if someone reacted to your feelings on this by telling you to stop being so sensitive? That it's just a game and it doesn't actually effect you? That even feeling any negative reaction to this is silly, it's getting worked up about nothing? Take stock of how it makes you feel, of your indignation. Reflect on how unfair it feels, on how the real world is infringing on your escapism, and I say that fully believing that escapism is important and a vital way that people destress and stay sane. Now take a moment to realize that's what some jackoffs making a 7/11 joke in an Indian themed set does to some Indian people. That's what some jackoff putting a gatherer card ID referencing neo nazi slogans on a card called invoke prejudice illustrated by a neo nazi to invoke the KKK makes any, well decent person feel. Try to understand that what you are feeling right now is what others are feeling every time they see this crap, except you are only feeling this right now because others are complaining about being made to feel it every day.

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Post by TheGildedGoose » 4 years ago

Legend wrote:
4 years ago
It's a gutless corporate move
Sure, which is a shame becau-
clearly coming from a progressive, politically correct, SJW psychosis rather than a balanced view of things.
Oh.

What balanced view is there on racist imagery and nomenclature in a card game?

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Post by tstorm823 » 4 years ago

Legend wrote:
4 years ago
It's a gutless corporate move and clearly coming from a progressive, politically correct, SJW psychosis rather than a balanced view of things.
Do you not find this sentence self-conflicting? How can something be a gutless corporate move and coming from a specific political persuasion. If the change is a matter of pushing out their own views, it's certainly not gutless. It would be gutless if it meant they were going against their own beliefs and folding to pressure, and I highly doubt anyone at Wizards has love lost for Invoke Prejudice.

Like, this isn't a new change, per se. I don't know why Wizards is acting like it is. Just look at the age of those cards, it's not a coincidence that there isn't an offender since 1994. Wizards made the decision to avoid controversial imagery decades ago. They've almost certainly be watching their step since at least the Unholy Strength|LEA pentagram removal. I'm inclined to believe they've wanted to remove a lot of these things from the game for a while, but made the decision to just not call more attention to them until such a time as there was attention on them anyway.

Really, I think the only problem here is the tone of the announcement. It feels dishonest. Like, sure Wizards, you stopped printing things like this 26 years ago, but the events of the last few weeks made you realize the problem. "We appreciate everyone helping us recognize..." Oh come on, you knew these were controversial! Don't pretend you just didn't see it until a few weeks ago, that's nonsense. There's no sense in a dishonest examination of conscience. The announcement could have just said "These cards are not what we want our game to be" and it would have been way better.
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Post by Selaya » 3 years ago

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To: Mark Rosewater & Whomsoever Else It May Concern

About the response to "Depictions of Racism" in Magic: the Gathering -- An Open Letter

Regarding the recent announcement, there may be many complicated feelings. Certainly, it is good to attempt to move forward without real racism. However, I also feel that the actions taken were the wrong response, and represent a myopic knee-jerk reaction that undermines confidence in the integrity of the game.

I can understand, to an extent, removing the image of "Invoke Prejudice" from the online Gatherer database, and especially scourging or reassigning a Multiverse ID so as to avoid the unfortunate confluence that occurred. That said, Magic: the Gathering is no stranger to disturbing iconography. The card "Crusade" has been banned and delisted for what I can only assume to be its mechanics since its art, over many printings including the modern-frame Duel Deck printing, is essentially tame, or else its name. This is strange when "Tivadar's Crusade", which contains the crusade concept in its name and depicts in its art the crucifixion of a humanoid being found 'undesirable' by a species-motivated mob, remains untouched. Imprison, similarly, is among those cast out while "Enslave" (and with it, a variety of other similarly-flavored effects such as "Slave of Bolas", "Cabal Slaver", "Cateran Slaver", and "Enslaved Scout") remains. And this does not even begin to approach the innumerable depictions of murder (including the card with that name), torture (again, including a card with that name), ritualistic sacrifice, cannibalism, gore, and numerous other human and inhuman evils as fits a game centered around conflict in an often dark fantasy world. I find it difficult to imagine that someone would be horrified or offended at the existence of "Crusade" and not "Famine" or "Village Cannibals". This makes most of the selected targets, all except perhaps "Invoke Prejudice" for its art and "Pradesh Gypsies" for its name, somewhat questionable as individuals singled out of a massive and diverse game depicting a vast spectrum of acts both fair and foul.

But, in a sense, I digress. To my main point, it does not really matter which cards were selected to become ghosts, stricken from record, nor precisely how many. The act itself represents an extremely poor response for the health and sanctity of the game as a whole.

I am reminded, somewhat, of the problem that Demons had early in the history of the game. From after Fifth Edition, until their return in Onslaught, the Demon type was forbidden. The reasoning for that then was essentially similar to the reasoning for this now, that there was a group of people, some subset of everyone that Magic: the Gathering might reach, that would or could be offended by the presence of such material. Because of that, no new demons were printed in the period where such thought held and unless I am badly mistaken old ones were not reprinted, with monsters that might have been demons presented instead as beasts or horrors. Wizards of the Coast poked fun at that decision in Unglued and eventually reversed it. But, I would argue, it was a more proper response than the one being taken now. In the period of no demons, "Lord of the Pit" was not forbidden, its existence denied, its status as a game piece revoked. New values were written in new tablets, and the game moved forward with a direction that was viewed as more acceptable. In every sense, the past was left in the past. It was neither carried onward nor expunged.

In this recent action though, a bad precedent is set that the game is to be shaped not by the concerns of the game, but rather by the political whims of those who make noise in social media. That, I feel, is a very bad approach. None of the seven cards banned in this action were banned because they were bad for gameplay. Their status in the game was redetermined by factors outside the game that should not be allowed to decide what would be done with them. Previous classes of black-border card lost to the otherwise eternal Commander and Vintage, such as Manual Dexterity, Ante, and Subgame (all one subgame card) were banished because of what they were as game pieces, not what an influencer took them to be as statements. With this latest move allowing the court of opinion rather than the health of the game to determine the state of the game, a frankly shocking lack of integrity in the management of the game has been shown.

Thus, I personally find that as long as politics and not gameplay should decide what belongs in Magic: the Gathering, censuring and censoring what has already been made in obeisance to arbitrary mob demands, I cannot conscience myself being a continuing supporter. I am aware, somewhat, of both the irony and futility of this statement. It is ironic in that I am myself attempting to advise change as a nobody on the internet when I say that such influences should not create game policy reaching backwards, and this I acknowledge and answer with the hope that my arguments up to this point have been well-reasoned. It is futile, in that I know I am not personally worth particularly much to Wizards of the Coast. For most of my life I have attended tournaments, but only a hand full each year, and as an adult I do regularly purchase sealed product, including booster boxes, but only on the level of an individual who collects and builds a few decks now and again, not en masse.

I know it is also futile because it is likely to be dismissed out of hand. Even if this letter finds its intended recipients, and is read, I suspect that judgment will have been made as of the first paragraph. All subsequent arguments, regarding the arbitrary nature of the targets, the tone of the game as a whole, and the integrity of game rules independent of political issues, are highly likely to be disregarded by many readers. These are my full and honest opinions, but I am crushingly aware that they may not be taken as such, and that I may, by the expression of a final conclusion opposed to the recent action, be painted with an unflattering brush and easily dismissed as not being of value.

But whether or not the unlikely event that this letter should be carefully considered occurs, I feel that it is important to put my money where my mouth is, so to speak, and that it lends what little what I have to my statements to append that I intend to cease attending sanctioned tournaments and cease purchasing sealed product. And as this letter is also to be presented in the open wilds of the internet, I would encourage others who feel that the wrong thing has been done here to do the same.

Thank you for your time.
(https://nogoblinsallowed.com/viewtopic. ... 71#p673450)
I like this, and would agree with it.
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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

Ya'll ever notice that it's only ever one political side that complains about art being influenced by politics? Wonder why that might be :)

I found that manifesto to be pretty, well, misguided, in the grand scheme of things. It's pretty constant that one group in American politics attempts to conflate ethics with politics as if right and wrong is a matter of political party.

None of this is politics. It's ethics. Right and wrong. Racist magic cards are *wrong* not because of a person's politics but because racism is wrong

edit: I realize this is probably close to the boundary for making this political, but my point is that it is not a political issue. I hope that comes across.

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Post by RxPhantom » 3 years ago

pokken wrote:
3 years ago
Ya'll ever notice that it's only ever one political side that complains about art being influenced by politics? Wonder why that might be :)

I found that manifesto to be pretty, well, misguided, in the grand scheme of things. It's pretty constant that one group in American politics attempts to conflate ethics with politics as if right and wrong is a matter of political party.

None of this is politics. It's ethics. Right and wrong. Racist magic cards are *wrong* not because of a person's politics but because racism is wrong

edit: I realize this is probably close to the boundary for making this political, but my point is that it is not a political issue. I hope that comes across.
Bingo. It's so odd so see them claim to be the moral authority and then give quarter to racists.
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Post by Selaya » 3 years ago

Yeah well, if only censoring racists, their thoughts and depictions of it will magically make all racism go away!
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(Hint: No, it really doesn't. If any, it'll radicalise those who may have had latent racist thoughts before even further. Trying to talk them out of it would be a better idea. And/or leading by example. In MtG's case that would be hiring people of color amongst others, but we've been there before.)
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Post by tstorm823 » 3 years ago

pokken wrote:
3 years ago
I found that manifesto to be pretty, well, misguided, in the grand scheme of things. It's pretty constant that one group in American politics attempts to conflate ethics with politics as if right and wrong is a matter of political party.
That manifesto is pretty, well, misguided.

The rest of your takeaway is based on assumptions. Unless you have personal knowledge I don't, that "letter" mentioned no parties or political affiliations. That person might live on the other side of the planet. Be careful with the basis of your criticisms.
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Post by DirkGently » 3 years ago

I find wotc's decision kind of, well, dumb. And personally inconvenient. And I don't love the precedent. So I can sympathize with that part of the argument as far as it goes.

That said, I can't begin to understand anyone who would consider this relatively trivial decision as justification for leaving the game or getting up-in-arms about it. I can understand the reverse - if IP got printed tomorrow, I'd guess a lot of people would leave the game and I could understand why. But I find it baffling when someone says "I don't want to be part of this game because I can't abide a company that OVERREACTS to racism!" Oh, the horror.
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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

Selaya wrote:
3 years ago
Yeah well, if only censoring racists, their thoughts and depictions of it will magically make all racism go away!
I don't think a company deciding not to allow cards they printed to be played in their game in response to customer complaints is censorship, except in the broadest sense.

The FCC isn't making them do it.

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Post by tstorm823 » 3 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
3 years ago
But I find it baffling when someone says "I don't want to be part of this game because I can't abide a company that OVERREACTS to racism!" Oh, the horror.
If you want to understand it, it likely isn't a response to overreaction to racism, or any reaction to racism for that matter. The stated complaint there is that Wizards is doing it as a response to public pressure rather than for the good of the game.

Personally, I think it is for the good of the game, but that's neither here nor there. The criticism is the giving into public pressure. If you'd like to read into that all the way, Magic players have a perpetual pressure campaign on Wizards to ban dozens or hundreds of cards that they think are bad for the game. There's almost certainly an aspect of jealousy and frustration in the people taking this change so negatively, the perception that Wizards ignores so many criticisms but not this one. The truth is of course that the people making the game are making the game they want to exist, they wouldn't make these bans if they didn't think it made the game better, and nobody complaining on the internet is going to change that.
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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

In my estimation the problem here is: where does it stop? It's a bad precedent. Fighting racism is the right thing, but cancel culture and metaphorical book burning isn't, and the former can be accomplished without the latter.

Shall we ban Dark Prophecy because it probably upsets animal rights proponents? Blessed Spirits because it reminds parents of a child who's passed? Liliana of the Veil because it's sexually suggestive? Preacher because it may misrepresent religious folks?

I recognize none of these are as bad as Invoke Prejudice, but my point is that a huge number of cards could be offensive to someone and players self regulate this better than wotc. Slippery slope arguments are flawed, I get it, but what is wotc's measuring stick going to be moving forward? Popular opinion? Pressure from a vocal subset of the fanbase?

I guess I'm in the "let the market and players regulate this" camp.
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Post by tstorm823 » 3 years ago

MeowZeDung wrote:
3 years ago
In my estimation the problem here is: where does it stop? It's a bad precedent. Fighting racism is the right thing, but cancel culture and metaphorical book burning isn't, and the former can be accomplished without the latter.

Shall we ban Dark Prophecy because it probably upsets animal rights proponents? Blessed Spirits because it reminds parents of a child who's passed? Liliana of the Veil because it's sexually suggestive? Preacher because it may misrepresent religious folks?

I recognize none of these are as bad as Invoke Prejudice, but my point is that a huge number of cards could be offensive to someone and players self regulate this better than wotc. Slippery slope arguments are flawed, I get it, but what is wotc's measuring stick going to be moving forward? Popular opinion? Pressure from a vocal subset of the fanbase?

I guess I'm in the "let the market and players regulate this" camp.
I can't say if they will or won't ban more cards this way. I can practically assure you, nothing with the modern border is going to be touched.
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Post by Wallycaine » 3 years ago

MeowZeDung wrote:
3 years ago
In my estimation the problem here is: where does it stop? It's a bad precedent. Fighting racism is the right thing, but cancel culture and metaphorical book burning isn't, and the former can be accomplished without the latter.

Shall we ban Dark Prophecy because it probably upsets animal rights proponents? Blessed Spirits because it reminds parents of a child who's passed? Liliana of the Veil because it's sexually suggestive? Preacher because it may misrepresent religious folks?

I recognize none of these are as bad as Invoke Prejudice, but my point is that a huge number of cards could be offensive to someone and players self regulate this better than wotc. Slippery slope arguments are flawed, I get it, but what is wotc's measuring stick going to be moving forward? Popular opinion? Pressure from a vocal subset of the fanbase?

I guess I'm in the "let the market and players regulate this" camp.
It's really weird having people lay out textbook Slippery slope arguments, bring up how they're inherently flawed, and then do nothing to address those flaws. Like, lampshade hanging doesn't actually fix the problem with slippery slope arguments, it just highlights it. Wizard's measuring stick going forward is going to be the same one they used in this decision: "Is it racist?" Saying they plan to look at more just means that these were the ones that were easy calls, and they'll be looking at more edge cases in the future. They're not going to spontaneously switch gears to any of the examples you mentioned, and implying that they will is intellectually dishonest. If you disagree with them banning cards for racism, say that, don't mask it behind "what if they go after animal cruelty next!".

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Post by Sinis » 3 years ago

Selaya wrote:
3 years ago
Yeah well, if only censoring racists, their thoughts and depictions of it will magically make all racism go away!
This isn't censorship.

This is a private enterprise deciding that they no longer want to release a certain kind of material, and is saying that in any gameplay where they have any say, they're disallowing a card. They're not preventing you from exercising your 'free speech' in any way.

It would be censorship if you were prevented from making a statement in a general context, instead of within the very narrow confines of official sanctioned gameplay.

Similarly, if you say to a fellow EDH player, "hey, within the framework the RC has provided us, I should let you know I want to play Invoke Prejudice", they could decline to play with you, and that would ALSO not be censorship.

As much as I agree with the rest of your statement about how washing it over won't make it so it had never existed, and my position remains that WotC's move is a gutless deflection from the real work they need to do in their corporate structure, censorship is not the line of argument to take here, because it's not even remotely relevant.

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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

Wallycaine wrote:
3 years ago
It's really weird having people lay out textbook Slippery slope arguments,
MeowZeDung wrote:
3 years ago
In my estimation the problem here is: where does it stop? It's a bad precedent. Fighting racism is the right thing, but cancel culture and metaphorical book burning isn't, and the former can be accomplished without the latter.

Shall we ban Dark Prophecy because it probably upsets animal rights proponents? Blessed Spirits because it reminds parents of a child who's passed? Liliana of the Veil because it's sexually suggestive? Preacher because it may misrepresent religious folks?
Interestingly these actually *are* slippery slope arguments unlike most of the ones we currently see. The best example I can think of is from the "if they ban a card for CEDH, they might ban more cards for CEDH" was accused of being a slippery slope despite not having the hallmark characteristic of a slippery slope fallacy -- which is arriving at some end point that is quite some distance from your starting point.

That is, in a traditional slippery slope you go from playing D&D to worshipping the devil or what not - multiple slides down the slope.

In this slope we've got point (a) banning cards that connect with violent racist history and then we take a few hops to (b) banning cards that offend people and (c) banning cards that are sexually suggestive.

If you're worried about more fringe-racially-charged cards being banned that's a legitimate concern to raise I think that is not a slope argument, but going to outlandish territory like animal rights activists being able to get cards banned for animals getting hurt in the art is where it goes off the rails.

It's also a little bit subtly insulting to essentially equate the plight of African Americans in society with that of moms uncomfortable about their sons getting excited by pretty girls on magic cards.

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Sinis
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Post by Sinis » 3 years ago

MeowZeDung wrote:
3 years ago
Shall we ban Dark Prophecy because it probably upsets animal rights proponents?
IMO, we should make it mandatory to include in decks for that very reason.

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Post by Wallycaine » 3 years ago

Sinis wrote:
3 years ago
As much as I agree with the rest of your statement about how washing it over won't make it so it had never existed, and my position remains that WotC's move is a gutless deflection from the real work they need to do in their corporate structure, censorship is not the line of argument to take here, because it's not even remotely relevant.
I am curious why it's being called a "gutless deflection" when they explictly called out that they have more work to do internally, both in the initial announcement and in further statements by Mark. Like, every bit of messaging around it is "This is a first step, we have more to do", so I don't really get where the idea that this is it comes from? Is it just general skepticism of Wizards or corporate cultures in general?

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Post by RxPhantom » 3 years ago

MeowZeDung wrote:
3 years ago
I recognize none of these are as bad as Invoke Prejudice, but my point is that a huge number of cards could be offensive to someone and players self regulate this better than wotc. Slippery slope arguments are flawed, I get it, but what is wotc's measuring stick going to be moving forward? Popular opinion? Pressure from a vocal subset of the fanbase?
Can I derail us for a minute to highlight the bolded part, please? Slippery slope arguments are only fallacies if they're wildly ridiculous or implausible. Is it reasonable to assume more cards will be banned as these seven have been? Yes. This is not a fallacy. Is it reasonable to say, for example, that it will be the ultimate downfall of the game, that it will destroy Magic? No. That's a fallacy.

This is basically a friendly reminder that when someone tries to call you out for using a slippery slope fallacy, there's a high probability that they're not applying it correctly, and they're probably not as clever as they think.

EDIT: So I saw this post last night before I went to bed. I didn't bother to refresh my screen before replying, not knowing that @pokken had already tackled it above. Sorry everyone.
Last edited by RxPhantom 3 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
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