Banlist update: 7 cards banned for offensive imagery/names

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pokken
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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

Sinis wrote:
4 years ago
pokken wrote:
4 years ago
The first clue someone is in the right these days is when they get accused of virtue signalling.
I'd agree if it was a person. A corporation trying to make sales is a different story.
I guess I'm willing to take this one at face value since they went way past what they needed to do. I expect there are some people who are motivated by kindness behind these actions beyond the usual corporate PR drones

Changing the number and hiding the art on invoke probably would have accomplished the same thing...gotten them accused of virtue signalling and yelled at by the same people while getting the rest of us to go...that's nice, now go hire some diverse artists.

I think time will obviously tell here. And I do think people are watching to see if they back it up.

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Post by gilrad » 4 years ago

pokken wrote:
4 years ago
It's often my first clue someone is in the right these days when they get accused of virtue signalling.
Yeah most of the arguments against this I've seen so far are pretty wild:

"Wizards/Hasbro isn't a paragon of racial inequality so therefore any action they take to improve their image is just pandering and doesn't count!"

"What about X card? Or Y card? The line they drew was too arbitrary they shouldn't have drawn a line at all!"


I mean, people can complain about the corporate culture of Wizards as much as they like I guess, I guess I'm a little sad people are too caught up in the complaints to applaud the fact they acknowled and de-normalized the one card that deserved it the most.

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Post by Sinis » 4 years ago

pokken wrote:
4 years ago
I think time will obviously tell here.


https://www.coolstuffinc.com/a/davekosi ... is-at-hand
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Magic needs more Black artists. It's had two in 26 years. Two. One, two. That's mortifying. It's horrific.

Magic needs more Black authors. It's had one. Inexcusable.

Magic needs Black designers. It's never had any. Indefensible.

Magic needs more Black content creators. Many, many more.

Magic needs more Black players and pros.

Magic needs more Black voices. At every level.
Remember these stats. In 5 years, come back and tell me those numbers have increased to resemble equality and diversity.

For now, though, I want you to look at that track record and tell me that banning Invoke Prejudice and a handful of other cards is a real/effective measure and not just a virtue signal issued so they can absolve themselves of any real, actual work.
gilrad wrote:
4 years ago
I mean, people can complain about the corporate culture of Wizards as much as they like I guess, I guess I'm a little sad people are too caught up in the complaints to applaud the fact they acknowled and de-normalized the one card that deserved it the most.
Yeah, sure. I just wish they did something material. This is like the guy saying "Look, I'm not racist" while doing racist things. I'm not angry they stopped me from playing Invoke Prejudice; I'm angry that they have a mountain of inequality that they probably won't address, while simultaneously stopping me from playing Invoke Prejudice.

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Post by Aazadan » 4 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
4 years ago
The artist is absolutely a racist nutter, no question about that. The multiverse ID thing is just the weirdest, though. Either someone deciding how that system works had some very poor taste, or it's the craziest coincidence in the history of everything.
Basically, the ID's went by set release, and number of cards in the set. While it wouldn't have been widespread public knowledge at the time, internally WotC would have definitely had the numbers on what card was going to be 1488 in the file. Someone on their team (or multiple people) would have ended up sneaking it past the rest of their team.

How they got the artwork in the first place is questionable, because there should have been feedback during the art development process. Once they had the artwork though, they probably templated that card, and then named it specifically to fit at card 1488. Additionally, this same artist did the card Circle of Protection: Black. The artist doesn't get that card specifically, and Invoke Prejudice, and having the template that it does without there being some sort of internal support there at that time.

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Post by rogerandover » 4 years ago

Sarcastic: Wtf, you can't even be racist in a fantasy game any longer?

Seriously though, do our fantasy characters now have to be political correct? That would ruin the whole game. This game is kinda build on racewar. They might aswell just close down WotC...

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Post by Sinis » 4 years ago

Vessiliana wrote:
4 years ago
Thank you for the explanation! I appreciate it.
You're welcome!
I wasn't actually running any of these cards, though I was considering Bad Moon for a mono-B deck because I was given one of the old-style ones with the moon on it by a friend.
Enjoy! Bad moon won't be banned any time soon.

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Post by Selaya » 4 years ago

Aazadan wrote:
4 years ago
[ ... ]

Basically, the ID's went by set release, and number of cards in the set. While it wouldn't have been widespread public knowledge at the time, internally WotC would have definitely had the numbers on what card was going to be 1488 in the file. Someone on their team (or multiple people) would have ended up sneaking it past the rest of their team.

How they got the artwork in the first place is questionable, because there should have been feedback during the art development process. Once they had the artwork though, they probably templated that card, and then named it specifically to fit at card 1488. Additionally, this same artist did the card Circle of Protection: Black. The artist doesn't get that card specifically, and Invoke Prejudice, and having the template that it does without there being some sort of internal support there at that time.
Gatherer (lol, people actually use that?) was made way later than Legends tho.
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Post by onering » 4 years ago

Cleanse is a stretch. It's really clear that it's supposed to be cleansing the world of demons and undead by the art, but the name and effect are just unfortunate together. I'm against this banning.

Imprisons art is a bit evocative of slavery, but it doesn't seem to cross any lines. As a black spell, the implementation is that the imprisonment isnt just, so it being a cruel imprisonment makes sense. Against this ban.

Evoke Prejudice should have never been printed with that name or that art, let alone together on a color hoser, even without the artist being a neo nazi. This ban merely rectifies the original mistake of it making it to print.

Gypsies is an ethnic slur against the Romani, and an infamous one. Stone throwing devil's is an ethnic slur against Palestinians. The former should have never been part of the game both for being a slur and for being an out of place reference to real people, while the latter was an honest mistake but nothing of value is lost with it's banning.

Jihad and Crusade shouldn't have been banned. Religious wars are part of fantasy. Using real world names tied to specific religions kind of sucks because it feels out of place, but the general idea is appropriate for the game.

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Post by if4ko » 4 years ago

I don't particularly care about seven cards that don't see play in my meta being banned. I can certainly understand why some people would find some of the gray area cards offensive, though.

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Post by Hermes_ » 4 years ago

Here's a good run down on the whys
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Post by Card Slinger J » 4 years ago

This reminds me of when one of my friends from my EDH / Commander playgroup got offended over Brian Snoddy's original artwork for Land Tax being depicted as a racist stereotype for white privilege. So I went ahead and replaced the version I had from Battle Royale which was the cheapest version at the time for the recent reprint in Battlebond with the treasure chest artwork by Chuck Lukacs. Me and him were cool with it going forward and we're still friends. Speaking of white privilege cards I guess Phil Foglio's original artwork for Greed is up there too.

We're going to find out very soon what Magic: the Gathering is made out of. Many times MTG players live in a bubble and this bubble wasn't reality it was escapism and now because of the murder of George Floyd and the ongoing quarantine from the COVID-19 pandemic we're all being forced to live in reality. How do we act, how we behave, how we interact, what cards we ban, and what cards we don't ban will determine how the future of our community is composed. It was only a matter of time til this Pandora's Box was finally opened and now there's no going back.
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Post by Ulka » 4 years ago

Keep it on the topic of the bans. Talk of Future bans, discussions purely of race and racism, and other topics will be considered off-topic and infracted as such as the violate the Forums Rules. This is a very termoilious time in the United States climate and while some discussion is allowed please keep it respectful and within the bounds of the forum rules. Any trolling, offtopic, flaming, or otherwise unallowed posts will be infracted. Keep the discussion focused on these 7 cards and dont speculated on other bans here. We have a whole Subfourm for those discussions.

If you have further questions feel free to PM and Moderator.

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Post by cryogen » 4 years ago

For additional context, please check out this Twitter thread:

That said, please remember that just because *you* disagree with this decision doesn't make it a bad one. WotC has a long and troubled history when it comes to diversity, and they've been getting a lot of flak lately. These are cards which never should have seen print in the first place and should have been addressed decades ago. This change is a step in the right direction.
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Post by KitsuLeif » 4 years ago

This whole thing just feels like a dumpster-fire.
There couldn't have been a worse time to ban these cards than now. It should have been their own motivation driving these bans instead of an angry twitter-mob.
That they erase twitter-comments now that say that this is nothing but a PR stunt makes it a real PR disaster.
Don't get me wrong. The decision to ban these cards was right and necessary. I just feel that it was rushed. This should have been done after the political situation that the USA is in atm has calmed down a little bit. They could have taken the time to consider which other cards are problematic as well. Cleanse is banned but Virtue's Ruin isn't as of now.
Yeah, they said they want to review all cards:


But why would they do this step by step, when they could have done it in a single big update, instead of letting people speculate what could be seen as racist and what not?

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Post by cryogen » 4 years ago

KitsuLeif wrote:
4 years ago
This whole thing just feels like a dumpster-fire.
There couldn't have been a worse time to ban these cards than now. It should have been their own motivation driving these bans instead of an angry twitter-mob.
That they erase twitter-comments now that say that this is nothing but a PR stunt makes it a real PR disaster.
Don't get me wrong. The decision to ban these cards was right and necessary. I just feel that it was rushed. This should have been done after the political situation that the USA is in atm has calmed down a little bit. They could have taken the time to consider which other cards are problematic as well. Cleanse is banned but Virtue's Ruin isn't as of now.
Yeah, they said they want to review all cards:


But why would they do this step by step, when they could have done it in a single big update, instead of letting people speculate what could be seen as racist and what not?
My understanding is that these cards have been brought to WotC's attention for years regarding their racial undertones (or overt, in some cases).
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Post by folding_music » 4 years ago

I support these overdue bans! they share hurtful themes and while I understand why the cards exist (fantasy writing being full of clumsily-written traditional themes that glorify the worst trends of humanity because it's addictively evocative) I'm glad that they're being officially branded unacceptable.

maybe in the future they'll take a look at why they maintain a fantasy race of goblins whose only recurring traits are stupidity, stealing and susceptibility to death, lol

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Post by DirkGently » 4 years ago

Aazadan wrote:
4 years ago
Basically, the ID's went by set release, and number of cards in the set. While it wouldn't have been widespread public knowledge at the time, internally WotC would have definitely had the numbers on what card was going to be 1488 in the file. Someone on their team (or multiple people) would have ended up sneaking it past the rest of their team.

How they got the artwork in the first place is questionable, because there should have been feedback during the art development process. Once they had the artwork though, they probably templated that card, and then named it specifically to fit at card 1488. Additionally, this same artist did the card Circle of Protection: Black. The artist doesn't get that card specifically, and Invoke Prejudice, and having the template that it does without there being some sort of internal support there at that time.
In fairness, he did all the circles of protection in tempest, not just black. None of them (from my viewing) seem to have anything remotely racist about them, they're just swirly circles. I kinda doubt the CoP thing was intentional since, afaik, there's nothing offensive about it so idk what the point would be. The number thing is harder to say, but it would for sure be a weird coincidence if it wasn't intentional. I thought I might have heard that the multiverse id system was created sometime after legends went to print, which would probably exonerate that element, but I can't find any info on how the system started at all, so I remain unsure.

It's a bummer since I generally like his swirly dreamlike style, even if he's a garbage person. Reminds me of RKF, I like the more abstract art from the earlier sets.

Mostly I feel like, these cards got printed and sold, you can't really take them back now. WotC's move in particular does basically nothing since these cards weren't being played competitively anyway. The RC's move is much more impactful since a few of them are played, however rarely. And while I think if could reasonably be argued that wotc are attempting to deflect blame for more substantive problems onto something relatively trivial, the RC can't realistically be criticized for that. I think more likely it would just look kinda edgy to not ban them when they're banned in the main game, essentially condoning them by keeping them legal.

I don't like bans, though, especially bans that are unpredictable. There's a lot of potentially questionable stuff across magic's history, and I don't like the anxious feeling that some card I like might end up banned despite being mechanically safe. I'd rather the game just erased flavor entirely if we're going to have to go through these sorts of purges. It's the mechanics I enjoy first and foremost.
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Post by Airi » 4 years ago

And nothing of value was lost, particularly in the case of Invoke Prejudice.

Yeah, I wish they would generally do more than just ban a small handful of cards, but at the same time I don't think "virtue signaling" is a valid argument against leaving some of the worst offenders out there.

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Post by Sinis » 4 years ago

KitsuLeif wrote:
4 years ago
Don't get me wrong. The decision to ban these cards was right and necessary. I just feel that it was rushed.
My problem is that it IS a PR stunt, and my suspicion is that they have zero plans to fix anything in their corporate culture that are the cause for actual complaints. Most people who play Magic haven't ever seen an Invoke Prejudice, nor do they even know it exists.
But why would they do this step by step, when they could have done it in a single big update, instead of letting people speculate what could be seen as racist and what not?
It's so that whenever they have a PR problem, they can say "Oh, we're making progress, to demonstrate that, we're banning Witch Hunter".

I don't expect them to have caught every single card in the first wave, but, "we'll look more in the future" just reeks of using it as deflection from their actual problems.

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Post by Hermes_ » 4 years ago

I think due in part to social media,we've just become so jaded to everything and cynical
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Post by The Fluff » 4 years ago

wondering if consulate dreadnought would someday be ban? Learned from another thread that it is also involved.
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Post by DirkGently » 4 years ago

Eesh, I get why dreadnought could bother people, but at the same time, this feels vaguely witch-hunty. No offense to witches, of course. But I never in a million years would have thought twice about that card. It's about people feeling welcome, as far as I can figure, and while I could imagine someone feeling uncomfortable seeing IP across the table, if someone was bothered by someone playing consulate dreadnought I'd be pretty surprised.

Imo if wotc wants to apologize, they should put notes up either explaining and/or apologizing on the gatherer entries, something I can imagine secondary sources like scryfall would be willing to duplicate. Banning doesn't make them go away, and it's way more disruptive to people playing the game - I'm now just kinda vaguely nervous that there might be secret racism in any given card that I like and/or spent a bunch of money on. And straight-up erasing the images from gatherer is kinda white-washy imo. You printed it, wotc. You made your money off it. You don't get to pretend like it doesn't exist.
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Post by RxPhantom » 4 years ago

gilrad wrote:
4 years ago
pokken wrote:
4 years ago
It's often my first clue someone is in the right these days when they get accused of virtue signalling.
Yeah most of the arguments against this I've seen so far are pretty wild:

"Wizards/Hasbro isn't a paragon of racial inequality so therefore any action they take to improve their image is just pandering and doesn't count!"

"What about X card? Or Y card? The line they drew was too arbitrary they shouldn't have drawn a line at all!"


I mean, people can complain about the corporate culture of Wizards as much as they like I guess, I guess I'm a little sad people are too caught up in the complaints to applaud the fact they acknowled and de-normalized the one card that deserved it the most.
I feel like you're addressing me directly with the bolded part, and constructing a straw man in the process. I asked where the line is because I truly want to know, not because it shouldn't exist. I definitely don't consider any of it arbitrary. I also brought up the original art for Triumph of Ferocity|Avacyn Restored, not to invalidate the action WotC is taking on these cards, but to highlight that MtG's history is full of questionable decisions, and not just in the realm of race. Should other cards be banned using similar criteria? Seriously, should they? We have the luxury of these seven cards being either prohibitively expensive, useless, or both,

Side note, does anyone remember Precinct Captain from Return to Ravnica? I remember being perturbed that the token it produced was both literally and figuratively the set's token black person. That was only eight years ago.
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Post by Hawk » 4 years ago

I was originally bothered by the bannings for a lot of the reasons folks have mentioned - the definitions seem arbitrary, and a lack of discussion on why they did what they did (while totally understandable) doesn't help. It also feels a bit like an easy PR move without any real teeth to it in terms of ACTUALLY fighting for equality and justice. And it feels a bit like sweeping their past under the rug, hiding their shame instead of owning it, in a way that costs them absolutely nothing (as compared to, say NASCAR's decisions yesterday which are going to cost them a lot).

But it's like that old proverb, right? The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago, and the second best time is right now. Having a night to mull it over I think it's fine for what it is - an easy way to immediately and swiftly be more inclusive. Only Crusade and Invoke Prejudice are remotely playable; Crusade is easily replaceable (my wife's Heliod deck is sad to lose a two-pip two cost enchantment but will deal) and Prejudice is a disgusting stax card that would never be printed at that CMC nowadays, so while I am sorry to those that invested in this "rare collectible" (I hadn't realized it was up to $200), I don't think the format is worse off for its loss. The rest of the cards are mediocre draft-chaff or sideboard filler.

I also don't think this move is sufficient alone. I don't want many more bannings (I am surprised Army of Allah didn't get hit but hope it's the only one left), but I do want them to take a long, cold look at the culture that allowed these cards to come to existence or get reprinted (in the case of Gypsies) - since many of those folks are now in positions of real power at WotC having been around for 20 years. If all it is the easy money they took yesterday, and not a signal of lasting attempts to be better, that will be pretty disappointing (and make me extra salty that the three copies of Crusade I own, only one of which has the bad art, are unplayable now).

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Post by UnfulfilledDesires » 4 years ago

This tweet sums up the situation. Also see Rich Shay's reaction. I'm happy criticism has finally forced Wizards to change Invoke Prejudice's multiverse ID & address racism in the game more broadly, but the way they're doing so appears awkward at best. I hope they follow through & make meaningful shifts internally.

I'm curious if we'll see action against more Harold McNeill cards. Many players familiar with McNeill have been trying to move away from his art for a while now. I recall seeing a Nether Void played in a Legacy tournament with altered art for that very reason. Banning Sylvan Library or even just McNeill versions would have a much bigger impact on EDH than this announcement does.
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