RULES UPDATE - Death Triggers on Commanders

[KitsuLeif]

And from the Ultimate Masters announcement "the last Masters set we plan on making for a while", we know that "for a while" is approximately 2 years... just kidding, it could be in Commander Legends, but I still doubt it.

[RxPhantom]

Elenda, the Dusk Rose is now $45. Does this change really make her that much better? Sure, it's nice to have the option to put her in the CZ upon dying, but wouldn't the plan be to reanimate and sac her a lot? I was actually going to start brewing with her a few months ago. I should've picked up a copy then.

[KitsuLeif]

Yeah, I'm also selling my Elenda now. I had a deck with her 2 years ago, dismantled it after one evening... it worked, but it wasn't my style. I was astonished to see her rising in price today.

[Treamayne]

So sad, I prefer the replacement effect because:
A) it was a good way to teach players about how replacement effects work
B) I prefer legends like Child of Alara to be a choice - abuse as part of the 99 or need hoops to abuse from the command zone,

Not a huge deal, but I just put this into the same category of rules change as mana burn...

[ZenN]

I'm all for this, and very pleased about it. Solid, intuitive change.

[KitsuLeif]

https://mtgcommander.net/index.php/2020 ... s-triggers

The tipping point came last October when a CAG member was talking about their Elenda, the Dusk Rose deck and we had to break it to them that it didn't work the way they thought it did. Turns out a portion of the CAG didn't understand that commanders dying didn't trigger death triggers and were quite passionate about the subject. That was motivation to see if we could do something with them that wasn't a mess.

So... Commander Legends was announced in October as well... I think that settles the discussion if we are about to see more Legendary Creatures with Death Triggers in that set :/



I still have one question left:
If I have a Grave Betrayal out and my opponent's Commander dies and he chooses to put it into the Command Zone... will Grave Betrayal bring the Commander back under my control anyway?

[WizardMN]

I still have one question left:
If I have a Grave Betrayal out and my opponent's Commander dies and he chooses to put it into the Command Zone... will Grave Betrayal bring the Commander back under my control anyway?

No, for the same reason Scavenging Ooze exiling a "normal" creature won't let it come back. It is a zone change and Grave Betrayal cannot see past the first zone change (from battlefield to graveyard).

[Peterhausenn]

Smh so many people overreact to minor changes. It's only a small rules difference, it just makes more cards possible to use...

this is power creep. power creep should always be watched carefully.

[cryogen]

Updated OP with official announcement on the RC page. Well, official until we get the real official one during the next ban list update.

[Kelzam]

Elenda, the Dusk Rose is now $45. Does this change really make her that much better? Sure, it's nice to have the option to put her in the CZ upon dying, but wouldn't the plan be to reanimate and sac her a lot? I was actually going to start brewing with her a few months ago. I should've picked up a copy then.

It's a very meager upgrade, and one that will negligible in the long run. There are those arguing she's easier to loop or that this change makes these Commanders OP suddenly, and it's a pretty silly knee-jerk reaction. In Elenda's case, to even come close to being able to loop her, you have to have some combination of mana generator sac outlets to produce her colored mana and generic cost (Ashnod's Altar + Phyrexian Altar or Pitiless Plunderer); Anointed Procession to double the tokens so you can outrace the mountaing Commander tax; and some static effect increasing her power or a way to get her power to at least be 4-5 when she dies the first time, with Anointed Procession on the board and the mana engine. Then, assuming you assemble all of those pieces, you can more or less loop her. But all that on the board is approaching Magical Christmas Land territory.

[DirkGently]

I don't really like the change. Splitting one rule into two is ugly imo, and there's few benefits realistically. Even commanders with die triggers are best used, in most cases, by actually letting them die and be recurred to avoid racking up tax.

But it's also not a huge deal I guess.

I do think it's silly that the announcement specifically calls out Kokusho. Kokusho isn't even a particularly good card, and he's a terrible commander, rules change or no. I guarantee he is not banworthy with this change. Child is much more powerful, but the better versions of that deck recurred him anyway so it's a pretty minor upgrade (and in some cases downgrade, since the explosion can't be avoided outside of sacking him to a City of Shadows or something).

[Yatsufusa]

I don't really like the change. Splitting one rule into two is ugly imo, and there's few benefits realistically. Even commanders with die triggers are best used, in most cases, by actually letting them die and be recurred to avoid racking up tax.

But it's also not a huge deal I guess.

I do think it's silly that the announcement specifically calls out Kokusho. Kokusho isn't even a particularly good card, and he's a terrible commander, rules change or no. I guarantee he is not banworthy with this change. Child is much more powerful, but the better versions of that deck recurred him anyway so it's a pretty minor upgrade (and in some cases downgrade, since the explosion can't be avoided outside of sacking him to a City of Shadows or something).

People's kneejerk reaction is that with infinite mana and a sac-outlet it basically loops. Their instinct is to find the most immediate "broken I win" combo when changes hit and infinite mana is one of those setup-required-taken-for-granted people tend to overlook anyway. To them a safety valve to such a combo is essentially removed.

Yes, Child of Alara is actually more "damaging" with the same safety valve removed, but people don't usually think about "stax-y" repercussions until they encounter it and complain about it because they by default think those are "socially outlawed" compared to typical infinite mana combos.

Meanwhile, there are many players who intuitively think things have always worked this way, the same way people thought the tuck rule worked before it was even installed because their minds intuitively lumped everything to "as long as Commander changes zones I can send it to the Command Zone". In the same vein, they're more used to Token SBAs than they are to Leyline of the Void's replacement effects as a default (since tokens are more commonplace).

At the end of the day, this is more of a comfort-change to accommodate/align with how newer players would intuitively assume how the systems in the format work. It will have functional impact (like Child), but as we all did the math, the damage isn't as widespread due to the number of Commanders directly affected. Even Child is likely to be kept under control socially (and Elenda is honestly not worth that much work to loop around), I'd say additional Grave Pact (and other outside) triggers might actually be the largest impact instead (I don't see Banishing Light effects really surging in use in groups with the top-line premier removals already).

I'm more terrified that WotC will see that as a signal to go crazy with death triggers on their Legendaries. Honestly after Chulane I sort of lost confidence in their ability to not just power-surge Commanders so they can sell decks/packs. Sure, ETB commanders are already a thing, but they're going to see "dies" as a "drawback" when they think of other formats and just go ham.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

One word embodies, expresses, and capsulates my general feeling and opinion towards this rules change.

Thus with greatest eloquence I can muster, I humbly present that word to you: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

Inb4 "Skullclamp: life insurance with an even wider range of coverage"

[Sharpened]

So why didn't redefining dies from "goes to the graveyard from play" to "goes to the graveyard or command zone from play" just not work and they had to make this overly complex one which creates double zone changes?

I mean, there has to be a reason its not that simple.

[cryogen]

So why didn't redefining dies from "goes to the graveyard from play" to "goes to the graveyard or command zone from play" just not work and they had to make this overly complex one which creates double zone changes?

I mean, there has to be a reason its not that simple.

Because then you would get a dies trigger if someone Pathed or Chaos Warped your general and you stuck it in the command zone as a replacement effect.

[WizardMN]

So why didn't redefining dies from "goes to the graveyard from play" to "goes to the graveyard or command zone from play" just not work and they had to make this overly complex one which creates double zone changes?

I mean, there has to be a reason its not that simple.

That could have been an option (and one they said they talked about I think) but this is way better in my opinion. And not because of allowing dies triggers, but because of the interaction with "Exile until" effects. That is, Banishing Light is no longer really stupid with the Command Zone replacement effect and things like Curse of the Swine, while not functionally different, now have a better answer than "because you tried to exile it" when players question why they still get a token for an exiled commander.

[pokken]

I think I prefer the replacement effect still for not enabling Syr Konrad, the Grim weirdness (and any future triggers on things leaving the yard). I don't love the potential splash damage for any future effects that prevent things from leaving the graveyard either, kinda limits the wording.

(If you wanted a hypothetical hate effect that prevented cards from leaving graveyards, for example, it would have to be very awkward wording to not also shut off commanders going to the zone if that was what was desired).

I believe it could have been more successfully defined as:
Dies = "Goes from the battlefield to the graveyard or command zone, unless it would have gone to a zone other than the graveyard prior to a commander replacement effect."

Or something clunkier like that that is very intuitive to understand but clunky to word. Intuitively it's very easy: "Was it actually going to the yard and that was replaced? Okay it counts as dying." RIP / Leyline replacements don't count cos it wouldn't have otherwise gone to the yard. etc.

Note: it would probably need some additional language to prevent athreos/grave betrayal since the current solution sidesteps that by the 2-zone hops. Achievable I think.

But what we have is great. Definitely step up in terms of things behaving intuitively.

[WizardMN]

Or something clunkier like that that is very intuitive to understand but clunky to word. Intuitively it's very easy: "Was it actually going to the yard and that was replaced? Okay it counts as dying." RIP / Leyline replacements don't count cos it wouldn't have otherwise gone to the yard. etc.

I think you have some good points but this doesn't really work. The commander replacement effect is basically the same as RIP or Leyline; the destination is just different.

I understand what you are getting at but this highlights the issue with trying to actually word it in a way to only apply to the command zone replacement effect without messing up the existing replacement effects. I think the wording above is basically as streamlined as it would get with just adding "or command zone" to dying. It is elegant to be sure (kind of weird since the reminder text would then have to reference the Command Zone in Standard which they don't want to do).

[pokken]

I'm not sure what prevents figuring out a wording that allows tracking what the replacement effect being used is. Honestly I wouldn't care if it was 4 paragraphs long if the net effect is the natural interpretation lol

But if you say so I'll trust ya

[WizardMN]

Well, using your example:

Without RIP - If we have a creature "dying" the command zone replacement effect says "wait, put that into the command zone instead of the graveyard" and it is put into the command zone instead. The rule you propose would say "yep, it tried to go to the graveyard but the command zone replacement effect replaced it; you get a trigger".

RIP on a noncommander - The same situation applies: you have a creature "dying" and RIP says "wait, put that into the exile zone instead of the graveyard".

So far so good.

Now, with both together: If we have a creature "dying" we now have two replacement effects trying to affect it. We choose to apply the commander replacement effect first. So, we are back to scenario 1. Which has the same result as scenario 1. Since it is no longer going to the graveyard (it was replaced already) RIP doesn't even apply anymore so it might as well not even exist.

The issues are definitely more niche and corner case than anything so it is tough to just say "we need to use these as justification for not using this method" but I think allowing commanders to still "die" through a RIP type effect is not ideal. And there isn't really a way to handle this unless you say that the Commander replacement effect always has to apply last? That could be something I suppose. There is probably something that messes up though. Not really sure.

And it still doesn't fix the Banishing Light issue. While not the main focus of the change, it is still something that I think is a very important piece of this change to make things work intuitively. Players complain enough about Brawl where removing Banishing Light returns the opponent's commander and It That Betrays can still steal commanders. It doesn't make a whole lot of intuitive sense. Or, at least, players have questioned it. I really just care about things that "exile until" because they are the most obvious since they say "exile".

As with anything, there is potentially a "better" solution but, out of everything they could have done, this is quite high on the list. I am glad they went this way.

[ZenN]

The only thing I dislike about it is the double zone change. Breaks some cool things like stealing commanders with It That Betrays, or the interaction with Banishing Light type effects.

Overall I definitely feel this is a net positive change. I am quite happy that putting Skullclamp on a commander is now actually meaningful.

[cryogen]

The only thing I dislike about it is the double zone change. Breaks some cool things like stealing commanders with It That Betrays, or the interaction with Banishing Light type effects.

Overall I definitely feel this is a net positive change. I am quite happy that putting Skullclamp on a commander is now actually meaningful.

I was initially upset that it closed up those corner cases, but tbh they were "a-ha gotcha!" bug exploits that should be removed to make the rules more consistent. That said, I don't like that Syr Konrad, the Grim became twice as good now. Hopefully WotC takes this into account and limits these types of interactions moving forward.

[Myllior]

That said, I don't like that Syr Konrad, the Grim became twice as good now.

You now get a single trigger for an enemy commander dying, as Konrad doesn't care about creatures leaving opponents' graveyards, and up to two for your own commander dying, compared to none previously. (Konrad as commander gives no triggers on himself; Konrad and your commander die simultaneously gives one trigger; Konrad alive while your commander dies gives two possible triggers). So while you are getting some more triggers than before, I think you'd need to run Konrad in very creature-light games where commanders form a significant portion of total creature deaths (and where Konrad is going to be doing less to begin with) or be playing him as a random value piece in your 99 (where he'll be doing less than if he's built around) to get a significant relative increase in triggers.

Regarding the rules change though, I'm super happy with it. It's not something I was expecting to change nor had any particular stance on, but it's a change that makes a number of things more intuitive and in-line with expectations from newer commander players. That it also helps a few commanders is just gravy on top. Good job RC and CAG.

[tstorm823]

That'll be a muscle memory I have to break, but otherwise no big change.

[Cyberium]

While not mentioned, how does this new rule interact with Oblation i.e. tuck effect? As in, does the commander gets shuffled into the library THEN return to command zone? I can't think of a trigger that happens when a creature gets shuffled at the moment, but assuming there is, will this rule eventually apply to it?