Why is everyone in cEDH keep calling about 'ban' Flash thing?

[Spleenface]

i'd love to see a topic there,along the lines or just asking if a solved format is okay when it is applied to EDH. I imagine it would be downvoted into dissappearing.

Kinda depends on what "solved" means. It's arguable that a format with no "solution" is possible, because there is no Nash equilibrium when all the top decks are balanced against each other. "Rock Paper Scissors" isn't solved from a game theory perspective, though it's solved in the sense that all the outcomes and possibilities are known.

Homogeneity is inevitable in any format, typically only staved off by the whims of players and the transaction costs associated with switching decks. But when you hit the point that the best answer to a meta full of a given deck is to also play that deck, then there's a problem. And even setting aside how imbalanced hulk is with the rest of the top strategies in commander, the fact is, Flash is still miserable to play against, and it easily checks many of the 7 boxes the RC themselves put out as examples of why a card might be banned.

[onering]

No. If people don't wish to play optimally, they can create more "categories" to speedrun games in. There are pretty much always distinctions between runs where glitches are allowed, only certain glitches, or none at all. The existence of an optimal strategy shouldn't prevent people from exploring others as long as they're content that their explorations most likely will be suboptimal. Still, the analogy isn't particularly pertinent to our debate.

I think the analogy is very pertinent to the debate.

In speedrunning, players take games 'as is', and then 'rule 0' which glitches are allowed and which ones aren't (including the 'no glitches allowed' option). The salient part of this is that speedrunning takes the game as is and it would be laughable to ask the developer to make it easier or harder to speedrun.

cEDH according to the mission statement on the subreddit, takes the game as is; anything not officially banned is permitted to use. As much is directly implied by one of the rules: "We are not interested in how "nice" a deck's strategy is. Expect discussion of combos, MLD, stax, etc. when appropriate. A post with "My meta doesn't allow X" may be removed."

IMO, it is exactly the same, except that cEDH players no longer want to engage with EDH 'as is' because they've solved the format.

Not cEDH players, numbnuts redditors who represent the most vocal minority of cEDH players and shout down the ones who disagree. Most of the cEDH players around here aren't dipshits. And I define cEDH players as anyone who plays cEDH somewhat regularly, even if it's just 10 percent of their commander games.

And I define cEDH as any game where the participants play highly tuned versions of the top tier decks and make all their decisions in game based on maximizing their chance of winning. More to the point, it's when everyone in the game expects everyone to bring the only the best decks built the best way and to play cutthroat, because everyone is looking for the highest level of play. It's a challenge, the fun is in challenging yourself from a play perspective and a deckbuilding perspective to be the best you can be. It's for Spike, and it's fun for Spike. It doesn't have to have an actual tournament attached to it, but even when played casually it's certainly different from regular edh, by design. If someone sat down at a table expecting cEDH and everyone brought 75 percent decks, the cEDH player wouldnt have as much fun and may even be a bit miffed, because that's not the experience they signed up for.

[anomalous_]

flash creates play patterns that make games actively unfun and encourage everyone to play flash. it is the only truly viable instant speed kill, and dodges most hate besides: torpor orb effects, GY hate, and search hate. The fundamental issues are that there is no reason to not play flash, and the best response to flash is another flash. it makes games worse and is too consistent and too efficient. it needs 0 preexisting boardstate and 0 mana in pool for either line. the backup pile invalidates single use grave hate, and the deck can comfortably layer in demonic consultation and hermit druid wins, with minimal downside.

[Sinis]

Not cEDH players, numbnuts redditors who represent the most vocal minority of cEDH players and shout down the ones who disagree. Most of the cEDH players around here aren't dipshits.

I'll be honest, there are handful of respectful posters here and a small proportion on reddit, and that's pretty much it. Every cEDH player I've met IRL has been a pubstomper with no one to play against after first game they ruin. The people at my LGSs, they play Commander for social pants-on-head games of Magic. When locals in my city want to play competitive, they switch to a curated competitive format like Modern or Pioneer, even when playing outside a tournament structure (sound familiar?).

It's for Spike, and it's fun for Spike.

Every other format is for Spikes. Hell, even this format is for Spikes.

But I don't believe, not for one brief moment, that our rules governance should be oriented to treat Spikes as a priority over every other psychographic profile. Every other format treats Spikes as a priority, and this is the one (1) format where it's not, and I think it would be a real damn shame if any ground was given beyond explaining why no ground should be given.

[Sinis]

flash creates play patterns that make games actively unfun and encourage everyone to play flash. it is the only truly viable instant speed kill, and dodges most hate besides: torpor orb effects, GY hate, and search hate. The fundamental issues are that there is no reason to not play flash, and the best response to flash is another flash. it makes games worse and is too consistent and too efficient. it needs 0 preexisting boardstate and 0 mana in pool for either line. the backup pile invalidates single use grave hate, and the deck can comfortably layer in demonic consultation and hermit druid wins, with minimal downside.

I wish people would stop posting this one thing. We are not a bunch of drooling Wojaks with no understanding of competitive balance or what a negative play experience is.

It is not in dispute that for players who want to play optimized lists, that there is currently one answer. Even if we accept this as true (and most of us do), there is a much more pressing reason to leave Flash unbanned which as been communicated over, and over, and over.

[MrMystery314]

I'll be honest, there are handful of respectful posters here and a small proportion on reddit, and that's pretty much it. Every cEDH player I've met IRL has been a pubstomper with no one to play against after first game they ruin.

I'm sure you're perfectly qualified to speak about your local meta, but I don't think your personal experience is particularly relevant to the discussion as a whole, especially as I doubt the number of players you've met is a significant percentage of the self-professed "competitive" EDH community.

When locals in my city want to play competitive, they switch to a curated competitive format like Modern or Pioneer.

Once again, that certainly may be true, but there clearly are quite a few people who think otherwise.

But I don't believe, not for one brief moment, that our rules governance should be oriented to treat Spikes as a priority over every other psychographic profile.

I don't think that banning Flash treats Spikes as a priority over everyone else, as empirically Flash would be a tiny proportion of the ban list. Are bans like Worldfire treating Timmies as a priority over everyone else? Is it bad to have bans that appeal to different groups as long as something great for one group doesn't harm another group? And no, Flash doesn't qualify as harming the handful of people who play Flash casually, as they are outnumbered by those who are negatively affected by the card. Even with that in mind, the optimal solution is still to err on the side of leaving everything reasonable unbanned and let people figure out what they want to do with the rest.

Even if we accept this as true (and most of us do), there is a much more pressing reason to leave Flash unbanned which as been communicated over, and over, and over.

Could you explain this again for us please?

[folding_music]

I'm definitely gonna start running Flash in whatever pile of a deck I make next.

It's farcical in a way, to push the format to the point where the only answer to your bugbear is to play the bugbear and then demand its removal. You popularized it, you deal with it.

[Sinis]

I don't think that banning Flash treats Spikes as a priority over everyone else, as empirically Flash would be a tiny proportion of the ban list.

It absolutely does. It's gearing EDH to a competitive format, because the only people who are actually encountering problems with Flash are people playing in competitive games.

The problem isn't the proportion of cards that are banned for 'competitive' reasons. It's the philosophy behind it, which has always been to steer players into playing decks/cards that are more social and promote positive play experiences.

Are bans like Worldfire treating Timmies as a priority over everyone else?

Worldfire is banned for the same reason as Upheaval; they undo huge swaths of the game, and can be NPEs.

Is it bad to have bans that appeal to different groups as long as something great for one group doesn't harm another group? And no, Flash doesn't qualify as harming the handful of people who play Flash casually, as they are outnumbered by those who are negatively affected by the card. Even with that in mind, the optimal solution is still to err on the side of leaving everything reasonable unbanned and let people figure out what they want to do with the rest.

I would venture that non-cEDH players *are* harmed, by having a longer banlist to consider, and options being removed that don't explicitly create NPEs.

Could you explain this again for us please?

The underlying philosophy is, and has always been, that Commander is not for tournament/competitive play. For over a decade, since the format's inception, this has been the case.

Consider an answer from an AMA in 2017: http://nxs.wf/np66722
Consider this response from 7 months ago for why bannings for optimized playspaces aren't something that's typically done: http://nxs.wf/np3513
Consider this response reiterating for the Nth time that this is a casual format and that players seeking to optimize within its constraints were always going to find themselves tripping up: http://nxs.wf/np3808
Consider the format philosophy on the official site, that has not changed in ideology for a decade: https://mtgcommander.net/index.php/the- ... commander/

Specifically, read this paragraph:

The goal of the ban list is similar; it does not seek to regulate competitive play or power level, which are decisions best left to individual play groups. The ban list seeks to demonstrate which cards threaten the positive player experience at the core of the format or prevent players from reasonable self-expression. The primary focus of the list is on cards which are problematic because of their extreme consistency, ubiquity, and/or ability to restrict others' opportunities.

These are derived from official sources, as well. The point that this format was always intended to be something other than competitive magic has been made countless times by countless people.

If you want to play optimized lists, fine. But man, could you not demand the stewards of the format -- who have had a singular mission statement for longer than most people have been even playing magic -- to change it to suit their whims, ahead of a majority of people who already like it the way it is.

[DirkGently]

I think most of us normies would agree that banning flash would be purely for cEDH. I've never had a negative experience with the card...nor hardly any experiences at all, really, though I did throw it into my thassa deck last night for lulz (didn't draw it, but not for lack of trying...).

That said, how do people feel about (re-)banning hulk? Because personally I think it would be a good move. As much as people complain about T&N as being a 1-card win, at least if you're holding removal you can let T&N resolve and react to what happens. Plus it's a spell on the stack that can be countered with many counterspells, unlike a hulk put into play via reanimation, sneak attack, besides just flash. With some hulk setups, if you let the trigger resolve, you have essentially no window to interact afterward. So there's no way to hold removal until you know whether they're going for a combo win, or just some value.

I've had a decent number of hulks played against me, and it's almost always been used as an instant win, even in more casual decks. I can't say I see much benefit to keeping it legal in the format.

[MrMystery314]

I didn't think I would end up arguing for something I didn't necessarily agree with (then again, my preferred choice is quite nuclear), but the arguments raised against the unpopular opinion here make me want to continue playing devil's advocate.

because the only people who are actually encountering problems with Flash are people playing in competitive games.

From my perspective, this is a pretty convincing argument to ban Flash solely because of the empirical data. I'd support a ban of a casual-only card that caused similar problems too. What that says about the ban philosophy is a different question, but that isn't a Flash debate.

t's the philosophy behind it, which has always been to steer players into playing decks/cards that are more social and promote positive play experiences.

Being Flashed out on turn 2 because you didn't purposely forsake playing anything to wait for the inevitable combo attempt is a positive play experience. It also is quite social when at the MagicFest you settle in for a nice long game of bantering with strangers and new friends only for someone to pull the plug five minutes in. Does Flash promote social experiences or good times? Maybe the handful of players who play Flash for value enjoy it, but that's a minority of the minority who play Flash.

I would venture that non-cEDH players *are* harmed, by having a longer banlist to consider, and options being removed that don't explicitly create NPEs.

Perhaps I'm an anomaly, although I doubt it, but I've never thought "gee, I really wanted to play Limited Resources, but I can't". I don't think EDH players are so stymied by choice that one added part of the list will somehow frazzle them. Likewise, I would be very curious to know how many people considered Flash as an option before it became fashionable to mock cEDH players by saying "well I use it, you just hate fun!". Quotes like " I'm definitely gonna start running Flash in whatever pile of a deck I make next" and all the comments on Reddit that aren't downvoted into oblivion make it sound like most of the people claiming that Flash is such a lynchpin of their decks that a ban would spell the end of EDH wouldn't play it if not for the ban controversy.

that players seeking to optimize within its constraints were always going to find themselves tripping up

I'd say they/we have done a pretty good job of it.

to change it to suit their whims

This implies the ban furor is arbitrary, not the culmination of years of realization that Hulk's unban had a major ripple effect.

ahead of a majority of people who already like it the way it is.

This is cherry-picking, a bit more so than I'd like to be fair to the "ban Flash" crowd—then again, I think we've all been engaging in a fair amount of straw-manning and that—but if we define the status quo as "everyone plays games that makes them happy," a Flash ban wouldn't violate that. Unbans that overpower the ability of casual groups to self-police or competitive groups unable to maintain an universal standard for playing with strangers to optimize and metagame past new threats do violate that, and I think many would argue Hulk's unban with Flash in the format as the latter.

I've had a decent number of hulks played against me, and it's almost always been used as an instant win, even in more casual decks.

I don't really think there's anything wrong with instant wins in any format, it's just the idea of interactivity and over-centralization that's an issue.

[Spleenface]

I'll be honest, there are handful of respectful posters here and a small proportion on reddit, and that's pretty much it. Every cEDH player I've met IRL has been a pubstomper with no one to play against after first game they ruin. The people at my LGSs, they play Commander for social pants-on-head games of Magic. When locals in my city want to play competitive, they switch to a curated competitive format like Modern or Pioneer, even when playing outside a tournament structure (sound familiar?).

As someone who doesn't play cEDH, how would you ever know if you encountered a well behaved cEDH player. Maybe 3/4 of the people you consider "casual" players have fully foiled out Thrasios Tymna decks, and you'd just never know because they aren't big enough pricks to play them against you.

It's for Spike, and it's fun for Spike.

Every other format is for Spikes. Hell, even this format is for Spikes.

But I don't believe, not for one brief moment, that our rules governance should be oriented to treat Spikes as a priority over every other psychographic profile. Every other format treats Spikes as a priority, and this is the one (1) format where it's not, and I think it would be a real damn shame if any ground was given beyond explaining why no ground should be given.

I don't think that banning Flash treats Spikes as a priority over everyone else, as empirically Flash would be a tiny proportion of the ban list.

It absolutely does. It's gearing EDH to a competitive format, because the only people who are actually encountering problems with Flash are people playing in competitive games.

The problem isn't the proportion of cards that are banned for 'competitive' reasons. It's the philosophy behind it, which has always been to steer players into playing decks/cards that are more social and promote positive play experiences.

Are bans like Worldfire treating Timmies as a priority over everyone else?

Worldfire is banned for the same reason as Upheaval; they undo huge swaths of the game, and can be NPEs.

Is it bad to have bans that appeal to different groups as long as something great for one group doesn't harm another group? And no, Flash doesn't qualify as harming the handful of people who play Flash casually, as they are outnumbered by those who are negatively affected by the card. Even with that in mind, the optimal solution is still to err on the side of leaving everything reasonable unbanned and let people figure out what they want to do with the rest.

I would venture that non-cEDH players *are* harmed, by having a longer banlist to consider, and options being removed that don't explicitly create NPEs.

Could you explain this again for us please?

The underlying philosophy is, and has always been, that Commander is not for tournament/competitive play. For over a decade, since the format's inception, this has been the case.

Consider an answer from an AMA in 2017: http://nxs.wf/np66722
Consider this response from 7 months ago for why bannings for optimized playspaces aren't something that's typically done: http://nxs.wf/np3513
Consider this response reiterating for the Nth time that this is a casual format and that players seeking to optimize within its constraints were always going to find themselves tripping up: http://nxs.wf/np3808
Consider the format philosophy on the official site, that has not changed in ideology for a decade: https://mtgcommander.net/index.php/the- ... commander/

Specifically, read this paragraph:

The goal of the ban list is similar; it does not seek to regulate competitive play or power level, which are decisions best left to individual play groups. The ban list seeks to demonstrate which cards threaten the positive player experience at the core of the format or prevent players from reasonable self-expression. The primary focus of the list is on cards which are problematic because of their extreme consistency, ubiquity, and/or ability to restrict others' opportunities.

These are derived from official sources, as well. The point that this format was always intended to be something other than competitive magic has been made countless times by countless people.

If you want to play optimized lists, fine. But man, could you not demand the stewards of the format -- who have had a singular mission statement for longer than most people have been even playing magic -- to change it to suit their whims, ahead of a majority of people who already like it the way it is.

Here's the crux of the dispute. You claim that a flash ban is prioritizing Spikes/Competitive/Tournament play (though these are not all the same thing, but whatever) OVER everyone else. But you then point to the Philosophy document and claim that it's not about power level, it's about "negative play experiences".

The point we are trying to make is that Flash creates negative play experiences and not only that, it creates far more negative than positive ones. One could argue that max power would be more balanced with Sol Ring gone. But I would never advocate that, I'd be taking an extremely popular toy away from millions of people, and I don't want to do that. The people who "like it the way it is", from what I can tell, have almost no attachment to Flash as a card. In fact, having been engaged in this debate for nearly a year now, I far more commonly hear arguments against why my perspective and wants should be considered on the banlist than why Flash is a card that should be legal or promotes positive play experiences.

The fact is, if the RC had unbanned hulk and banned Flash at the same time, literally 0 people would have thought that was strange or a problem. It's only because of the perception of the origin of the change that there is any real pushback from a substantial majority.

And I'm increasingly tired of how alienating it is to hear that commander is a format for everyone and "we can't make this change because this format is not for you".

[ilovesaprolings]

A) It wouldn't prevent pubstomping, people who WANT to pubstomp will always be able to

they'll have less excuses

B) Did you actually, genuinely claim that your list of 4 formats, 3 of which are dead and one of which is crippled since all the splits was a good argument for why splits work?

what's wrong? Don't you cEDH players like challenges? Or do you know that your community won't be able to make a format thrive without leeching on the casual playerbase?
(by the way 1v1 had many problems even before the splits)

[Sinis]

That said, how do people feel about (re-)banning hulk?

Honestly, the answer for Hulk is also 'no'.

The people I have encountered have every bit the same amount of trouble with Hulk as they do with Flash: That is, none at all.

Hulk is only problematic when you include a very specific subset of 4ish cards in your deck. The rest of the time it's a dorky value 6/6 for 7, which is hardly criteria for ban.

Flash is very similar; it's only broken with Hulk (and maybe Rector), but if you include those combinations of cards, you know exactly what you are doing and people should absolutely be communicating what kind of game they want to play before it starts.

Being Flashed out on turn 2 because you didn't purposely forsake playing anything to wait for the inevitable combo attempt is a positive play experience. It also is quite social when at the MagicFest you settle in for a nice long game of bantering with strangers and new friends only for someone to pull the plug five minutes in. Does Flash promote social experiences or good times? Maybe the handful of players who play Flash for value enjoy it, but that's a minority of the minority who play Flash.

I'm going to throw this out there. If these are the experiences you have, maybe you should as has been advised since the format's inception Talk to your opponents about what kind of game you want to play.

If you want to play no holds barred, don't have a Pikachu face when someone uses a hold you'd rather be barred.

This implies the ban furor is arbitrary, not the culmination of years of realization that Hulk's unban had a major ripple effect.

This implies that the alleged ripple effect is one that should be cared about in the first place. It is not, and it has always been the position of the stated format philosophy that it should not be cared about.

This is cherry-picking,

It is not cherry picking. Let's asssume for just one moment that Flash is only ever played by cEDH players and that edhrec is representative of all players. Flash is played in 2% of decks. That means, at maximum, cEDH players represent a whole 2% of of the format's players.

Let's scale that back now: There are clearly people playing Flash without Hulk, even by edhrec's data, and I think it would be common sense that competitively oriented players seeking competitive resources are more likely to post their decks to sites like edhrec in the first place, where casuals are less likely to, and even less likely to seek online resources at all in their lists.

Honestly, I think the proportion of cEDH players must be miniscule compared to the whole.

I'll be honest, there are handful of respectful posters here and a small proportion on reddit, and that's pretty much it. Every cEDH player I've met IRL has been a pubstomper with no one to play against after first game they ruin. The people at my LGSs, they play Commander for social pants-on-head games of Magic. When locals in my city want to play competitive, they switch to a curated competitive format like Modern or Pioneer, even when playing outside a tournament structure (sound familiar?).

As someone who doesn't play cEDH, how would you ever know if you encountered a well behaved cEDH player. Maybe 3/4 of the people you consider "casual" players have fully foiled out Thrasios Tymna decks, and you'd just never know because they aren't big enough pricks to play them against you.

This is one of the most asinine things I have ever read on the internet.

Whether a player is respectful or not doesn't depend on their brand of fun within the format. I've had good discussions with dozens, if not hundreds of magic players over the ~20 years I've been playing. Respectful players have pre-game discussions about how their decks play, what kind of game they're looking for, and if they're looking for more games after, whether the gameplay was enjoyable for everyone.

Every cEDH player I've ever encountered has done literally none of those things.

[Sinis]

Here's the crux of the dispute. You claim that a flash ban is prioritizing Spikes/Competitive/Tournament play (though these are not all the same thing, but whatever) OVER everyone else. But you then point to the Philosophy document and claim that it's not about power level, it's about "negative play experiences".

The point we are trying to make is that Flash creates negative play experiences and not only that, it creates far more negative than positive ones. One could argue that max power would be more balanced with Sol Ring gone. But I would never advocate that, I'd be taking an extremely popular toy away from millions of people, and I don't want to do that. The people who "like it the way it is", from what I can tell, have almost no attachment to Flash as a card. In fact, having been engaged in this debate for nearly a year now, I far more commonly hear arguments against why my perspective and wants should be considered on the banlist than why Flash is a card that should be legal or promotes positive play experiences.

It is a negative play experience for a tiny, tiny minority of players who are actively pursuing that play experience. You know what throws me about cEDH players? They agree to 'no holds barred', but then get mad that there are holds that exist they don't like.

Contrast the legality of Flash with that of the card that started this thread: Paradox Engine. PE was miserable for the vast majority of people to have in their games, and thus is languishes on the ban list. Did I like PE? I didn't mind it. Do I understand why it's banned? Yes, because I've read and accept the format philosophy.

Here's a bit of advice: If you don't like Flash being used that way, have a discussion with people about their decks and gameplay and stop playing with people who are playing Flash and Protean Hulk.

The fact is, if the RC had unbanned hulk and banned Flash at the same time, literally 0 people would have thought that was strange or a problem. It's only because of the perception of the origin of the change that there is any real pushback from a substantial majority.

Emphasis mine. You're appealing to competitive balance once again, which we have stated over and over, that we don't care about.

Are you arguing this in full intellectual honesty? Let me offer you two possibilities, and you can choose one. (Edit: this came out wrong)

a) The RC -- whose members are known, most of whom have been playing since the game's inception, and a few of which are Level 5 Judges who have probably literally witnessed the only times Flash and Hulk have been legal in competitive tournament-level play -- doesn't know that Flash, when combined with Protean Hulk is really good. The RC are a set of drooling idiots.

-OR-

b) There is no philosophy in place to regulate competitive play. The RC knows that Flash/Hulk is a competitive issue, but competitive issues are not EDH issues.

Please tell which of these things you believe is more likely to be true.

And I'm increasingly tired of how alienating it is to hear that commander is a format for everyone and "we can't make this change because this format is not for you".

It shouldn't be alienating. Look at it this way:

You went to a hardware store, and said "I want to go duck hunting"
"I recommend this rifle" said the shopkeep.
A bright orange rifle-like thing catches your eye. "Wow, what's that?!" you ask, immediately enraptured.
The shopkeep said "It's a nailgun, for construction."
"I want to hunt with that!" you said, enamoured by the bright orange nailgun.
The shopkeep sells you the nailgun you insist on buying and says "Look, it wasn't made for duck hunting, but you can do what you want with your property. Just be safe, ok buddy?"

You take the nailgun hunting and find out it wasn't designed for range shooting, and it operates poorly. You could say you have a negative duck hunting experience.

You then take the nailgun back to the shopkeep and say "This nailgun isn't working as well as I want it. Do you think we could improve the accuracy of it, and maybe change the munitions it takes?"

How is the shopkeep supposed to respond? You had every warning that this format was not intended for competitive play, and that it was not going to work out well if that's what you wanted. Now you tell us that you feel hurt and alienated because you can't hit a duck with your nailgun? We are not even saying "Don't go duck hunting with a nailgun". This format can be for you if you accept the slings and arrows of doing something with it that was not the direction we picked.

We're only saying "This isn't going to be the experience you want, and we are not ALL going to change to suit your new nailgun duck-hunting paradigm."

---

For the more-than-10 years I've been playing this format, people have complained about competitive balance. Before partners, before Flash and Hulk, it was 5c hermit druid decks on mtgcommander and mtgthesource. The arguments that the format is not competitively balanced are not new.

What is new is the sense of entitlement from new accounts to forums like these ones who repeatedly come in, hash out the same tired, irrelevant arguments, and scream and cry for changes that are not, and have never been in the vision of this format.

As I posted before in this very thread: If you want to play games with optimized lists, please, enjoy yourself as best you can. But, do not carry in your heart the belief that the paradigm of this format should be changed because you can't hit a duck with a nailgun.

[Spleenface]

As someone who doesn't play cEDH, how would you ever know if you encountered a well behaved cEDH player. Maybe 3/4 of the people you consider "casual" players have fully foiled out Thrasios Tymna decks, and you'd just never know because they aren't big enough pricks to play them against you.

This is one of the most asinine things I have ever read on the internet.

Whether a player is respectful or not doesn't depend on their brand of fun within the format. I've had good discussions with dozens, if not hundreds of magic players over the ~20 years I've been playing. Respectful players have pre-game discussions about how their decks play, what kind of game they're looking for, and if they're looking for more games after, whether the gameplay was enjoyable for everyone.

Every cEDH player I've ever encountered has done literally none of those things.

I never said a player being respectful was dependent on how you played the format. Respectful players absolutely have conversations. If I were to play at your shop, here's how it would go:

I'd sit down, pull out an Arkhive with 4 decks in it. I'd ask what kind of game you were looking for. If you said "my deck is a 7/10" I'd probably start with Intet "Bad Maelstrom Wanderer(tm)". If that was too strong, I'd shift down to Kolaghan, the Storm's Fury Thunderstruck, and if it was too weak, I'd shift up to Mairsil.

The fourth deck in my box could be Razakatz. It could be Food Chain. It could be Flash Hulk. It could be Kess Consultation.
You'd never know
You wouldn't count me as a cEDH player. You'd go on assuming every cEDH player you've ever met was an asshole.

My point is that no one can ever play a cEDH deck against you without pubstomping, and your primary way of detecting cEDH players is if they play cEDH decks against you. If you can't see how that might bias your sample, then I honestly don't know what to say.

Obviously I was hyperbolizing with my "3/4 casual players" bit, I clearly wasn't suggesting that was the ratio, I was just pointing out that your detection method is extremely biased towards detecting assholes, and you may not actually have the results you think you have.

But let's stipulate that you are right, and every single cEDH player in your area is a jerk (which is possible if the first one was a jerk who built a community).

waves "Hi, I'm Spleenface. I'm primarily a max power player, though I dabble across the entire power spectrum and not only do I not do what those assholes do, I'll stand with you in calling them assholes"

You've now met me. Please stop maligning me based on negative interactions with people I've never even heard of, I don't want to be associated with them, and that should be enough.

[Sinis]

You wouldn't count me as a cEDH player. You'd go on assuming every cEDH player you've ever met was an asshole.

Fair point. It's possible there are cEDH players lurking in my LGS that never play cEDH due to lack of opponents who will measure up.

But, why don't they play against the pubstompers?

My point is that no one can ever play a cEDH deck against you without pubstomping, and your primary way of detecting cEDH players is if they play cEDH decks against you. If you can't see how that might bias your sample, then I honestly don't know what to say.

You can absolutely play a game of cEDH without pubstomping. All you have to say is "I would like to play cEDH" and find someone to agree to play with you.

waves "Hi, I'm Spleenface. I'm primarily a max power player, though I dabble across the entire power spectrum and not only do I not do what those assholes do, I'll stand with you in calling them assholes"

You've now met me. Please stop maligning me based on negative interactions with people I've never even heard of, I don't want to be associated with them, and that should be enough.

Nice to meet you spleenface. I hope you don't take my posts as objectionable or especially anger-ridden.

The conversation surrounding Flash has gotten especially tiresome, especially when we have the same conversations over and over, and every time a new poster comes to one non-reddit forum or another, the same points have to be drawn out again and again.

[papa_funk]

While utilitarianism understandably rubs a lot of members here the wrong way, especially if the cost-benefit analysis doesn't agree with their personal opinion, from my personal perspective it is the right call. That's how society works: there are always winners and losers, and nobody is forcing you to stay if you happen to be part of the minority.

If we apply utilitarianism, then the answer is clear - all cEDH requests should be ignored. They are vastly, vastly outnumbered.

To put it another way:

I don't think that banning Flash treats Spikes as a priority over everyone else, as empirically Flash would be a tiny proportion of the ban list.

That one ban would be a greater proportion of the ban list than cEDH play is in the format.

I don't recommend this as the hill you want to die on.

[Spleenface]

While utilitarianism understandably rubs a lot of members here the wrong way, especially if the cost-benefit analysis doesn't agree with their personal opinion, from my personal perspective it is the right call. That's how society works: there are always winners and losers, and nobody is forcing you to stay if you happen to be part of the minority.

If we apply utilitarianism, then the answer is clear - all cEDH requests should be ignored. They are vastly, vastly outnumbered.

To put it another way:

I don't think that banning Flash treats Spikes as a priority over everyone else, as empirically Flash would be a tiny proportion of the ban list.

That one ban would be a greater proportion of the ban list than cEDH play is in the format.

I don't recommend this as the hill you want to die on.

If you apply rule utilitarianism, sure. But for act utilitarianism? I really haven't seen anyone trying to make the case that Flash is enabling more fun than it's preventing. If information that suggests this exists, I'd love to see it.

And are we certain that cEDH play accounts for less than 2.5% of play? Online engagement tracks with how invested someone is, which certainly skews the data in favour of the max power players, but those are also disproportionately the players who engage in a lot of commander play, as opposed to the average commander player, who Shivam claimed plays 3 hours a month based on internal data.

[RxPhantom]

The conversation surrounding Flash has gotten especially tiresome, especially when we have the same conversations over and over, and every time a new poster comes to one non-reddit forum or another, the same points have to be drawn out again and again.

This is why I've stayed out of the conversation for the last page or so. We're going around in circles. We have two diametrically opposed viewpoints on display here, with no discernible middle ground. Frankly, I have nothing new to add; I think I've said my peace in the most articulate way I can. I don't want Flash banned for a multitude of reasons, but the most important being that it would compromise the well-established philosophy of this format, would necessitate rewriting said philosophy, and I believe that philosophy is what makes the format so appealing and enduring to so many.*

I also believe that the key to good communication is brevity, and as such have grown tired of the giant walls of text.

*Man, how many times can I put 'philosophy' in one sentence?

[Sinis]

This is why I've stayed out of the conversation for the last page or so. We're going around in circles.

Look at you and your wisdom. I tilt at everything.

We have two diametrically opposed viewpoints on display here, with no discernible middle ground.

I don't believe that's true. Earlier, someone made an analogy to speedrunning, and outright said "there are tiers of speedrunning where a) all glitches are allowed, b) some glitches are allowed, or c) no glitches are allowed."

Speedrunning communities have managed to Rule 0 themselves. I absolutely believe cEDH players as individuals, or as tournament organizers can Rule 0 themselves. There can be tiers of cEDH; "flash allowed, no flash allowed, <some other arbitrary set of bans>".

I also believe that the key to good communication is brevity, and as such have grown tired of the giant walls of text.

I can't disagree, but walls of text are my specialty.

[papa_funk]

And are we certain that cEDH play accounts for less than 2.5% of play?

No one has certainty. That's the joy of working in the vast space of lower-investment players. But from all the data that I've managed to gather, best guess is that's way too high.

[Spleenface]

A) It wouldn't prevent pubstomping, people who WANT to pubstomp will always be able to

they'll have less excuses

How? Now the people with max power commander decks will have literally no one to play against but more casual players, since the people who actually want the challenge are playing a different format.

B) Did you actually, genuinely claim that your list of 4 formats, 3 of which are dead and one of which is crippled since all the splits was a good argument for why splits work?

what's wrong? Don't you cEDH players like challenges? Or do you know that your community won't be able to make a format thrive without leeching on the casual playerbase?
(by the way 1v1 had many problems even before the splits)

I don't even know why I'm engaging, since this makes it clear your answer is for us to go die in the snow.

Your initial argument was obviously in bad faith, since the clear failure of your attempt to demonstrate the viability of a format split has done nothing to change your perspective at all.

And honestly, this is the sort of toxicity that when it comes from my side, I get tarred with despite repeated disavowals, but will just be ignored by proponents of your side and those in the middle.

How is people having fun differently than you leeching anything? We're all commander players. Statements from the RC have been abundantly clear that no one is playing commander wrong, even if they are trying to focus on a certain type of player. Yet it's somehow acceptable to have this hostility and make broad brush assumptions about a huge number of people you've never even met, based on your interactions with bad actors who those people have specifically condemned. How is that fair?

[RxPhantom]

You weren't addressing me, but "people having fun differently than [me]" is fine, truly. It's when a small minority insist that the format bend to its will that I start to cry fowl.

[onering]

Not cEDH players, numbnuts redditors who represent the most vocal minority of cEDH players and shout down the ones who disagree. Most of the cEDH players around here aren't dipshits.

I'll be honest, there are handful of respectful posters here and a small proportion on reddit, and that's pretty much it. Every cEDH player I've met IRL has been a pubstomper with no one to play against after first game they ruin. The people at my LGSs, they play Commander for social pants-on-head games of Magic. When locals in my city want to play competitive, they switch to a curated competitive format like Modern or Pioneer, even when playing outside a tournament structure (sound familiar?).

It's for Spike, and it's fun for Spike.

Every other format is for Spikes. Hell, even this format is for Spikes.

But I don't believe, not for one brief moment, that our rules governance should be oriented to treat Spikes as a priority over every other psychographic profile. Every other format treats Spikes as a priority, and this is the one (1) format where it's not, and I think it would be a real damn shame if any ground was given beyond explaining why no ground should be given.

In no way do I argue that spikes should take priority. I strongly believe the opposite, that cEDH should not take priority over casual and that casual should take priority over cEDH. What I AM saying is that cEDH is a subformat for spikes (and others when they want to get their Spike on) and thus is about pushing the envelope and facing equal competition. Spike doesn't like pubstomping, it's boring. Pubstomping is the domain of griefer Timmies. They are looking for the experience of winning, not what goes into it. The challenge, the bettering of one's skill, the necessity of clean mistake free play, the meta gaming, the thrill of proving yourself against top competition, you get none of that from pubstomping. Pubstomping gets you easy wins and lets you dominate people. It lets you feel big without the work. Not all griefer Timmies are pubstompers, many turn to healthier outlets like playing stax or steal stuff decks or other decks that let them be in control and wreck people's stuff, but pubstompers get their kicks net decking a top deck and running it against weaker decks so their lack of skilll gets covered.

Your local meta probably just doesn't have enough cEDH players to actually have a cEDH meta. It's expensive in paper so unsurprisingly some stores don't have cEDH. It's much more prominent online, both on cockatrice (where it's free) and mtgo (where many of the staples are pretty cheap). On mtgo, cEDH games are typically labeled, because they don't want casual decks joining. The pubstompers online typically go for some %$#%$#% glass cannon combo so they can get easy wins from unsuspecting tables, then cry when someone they played before remembers their %$#% and stops them (or someone has an answer more generally).

[MrMystery314]

I find it quite interesting how everyone has tactfully avoided my preferred nuclear option. Somehow I've found an option that makes the diehard cEDH players feel spited because they don't get their curated format, while the casual players feel as if the doors have been unleashed for actors in bad faith to create misery for all. That is still what I personally believe would be most fun, and I regret that I have been inspired by the ludicrous arguments made on both sides to attempt to participate as anything but the crazy guy shunned by all. cEDH players, accept that your best bet for getting anything done will be to get competitive decks banned and force everyone on the fence to jump ship. Casual EDH players, get everything unbanned and let competitive players cry when you resolve Worldfire.

Also, as a parting thought, suppose cEDH splinters off and bans Flash. Should the people who accurately believe cEDH ought to be defined as optimizing MTG under the rules of EDH keep playing Flash Hulk in regular EDH, as they're too competitive for the EDH crowd? I think two competitive communities is a fair solution, one sticking with the Wild West of the EDH rule set and one trying for such ludicrous concepts as "fun" and "balance." I must say, Bridgevine was an extremely fun deck to play.