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ilovesaprolings
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Post by ilovesaprolings » 4 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
4 years ago
If you stumble on 2 and can't cast your mana rock, you could be putting yourself a turn behind for the whole game.
I mean... not really?
I failed to play my dimir signet on turn 2, i'll just drop it on turn 3? Then on turn 4 i can either play a 5 drop or a 3 drop and a 2 drop? Why would i need to play the perfect curve in the first turns of the game if i'm not playing cEDH?

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Post by DirkGently » 4 years ago

WizardMN wrote:
4 years ago
DirkGently wrote:
4 years ago
Plus the eldraine cycle, that enters untapped very frequently with additional upside, desert cycle that enters untapped and works like half a pain land, etc.
This is an odd argument to make when the point of the lands today is that they provide two colors. Entering unconditionally untapped but only providing one color doesn't mean anything. If you don't need both colors, that would be the reason not to include them. And the Eldraine lands are ones I would have an even harder time justifying including them in a 3+ color than the tango lands especially if I am relying mostly on non basics (if I had the basics for them, the tango lands would be just fine).

On topic, I think these lands are great. I do think that in a 5 color deck, beyond budget reasons, there is no space for them. And I don't play 4 color decks so I have no idea. But 2 and 3 color decks always have these slotted in after the ABUR duals and Shock lands. I can't remember a time where them entering tapped ever actually mattered and most of the time I can get them to enter untapped anyway. I too am waiting for the Enemy cycle.
We were slightly off-topic, but the argument was "are basics good" and his main point was that they enter untapped and provide a colored mana. Which is also true of many lands that get little play, but are strictly superior to basics in a vacuum, like oboro, palace in the clouds. Granted, the eldraine lands are definitely less likely to etbut in 2-color decks, so it's a little bit of a stretch, but you only need 1 basic or dual for them to etbut, compared to two basics for a tango.

I've got 2 main reasons for disliking these:
1) I don't want to run very many basics in my 2-3 color decks (moreso 3 color ofc).
2) even if I ran more, I still think a slowland is pretty mediocre.

So the relevance was to point #1.

But as long as we're comparing, the checkland cycle is much stronger as well, since it's roughly the same condition except much easier.

Especially if you're already running duals and shocks, I don't know what you'd need these. Do you really fetch the dual AND the shock AND you still need another dual land and wouldn't be fine with a basic?
hyalopterouslemur wrote:
4 years ago
Well, if you're playing green, that's two reasons right there. So they're more of a green thing, and of course these also go well with cards like Farseek and Skyshroud Claim.

I actually dismiss all taplands unless 1) what they do is really good, 2) they have a basic land type, or 3) there's a way it can enter untapped that goes with my deck. That removes quite a few multi-lands. Also, if they tap for three or more colors.
If you've already got a shock (and ideally a dual) with basics afterwards, then you've generally already got your bases well-enough-covered in terms of basic land type fetching. And I'd run the cycling duals over these in a heartbeat if I didn't have duals but still wanted 2 options.

I agree with your second sentence except for the second part. And I'd say, for the third part, that if it's just a fixing land it better almost always enter untapped, otherwise there's lots of better options knocking down my door. Having basic types is really only relevant to a point. dual land? Great, now I have a fetch target. Shock? Sure, decent backup target. After that it's kind of irrelevant.

In terms of fixing lands, I'd say the power ranking is:
classic fetches
command tower
vista
duals
BB duals
shocks
fabled passage
checklands
filters
ody filters
painlands
fastlands
tango lands
reveallands?

And that's even ignoring stuff that has any extra utility like the manduals, temples, karoos, path of ancestry, cycling duals, etc. many of which I'd rate over tangos although it does depend a lot on the deck.

So yeah, they don't generally make the cut for me.
I mean... not really?
I failed to play my dimir signet on turn 2, i'll just drop it on turn 3? Then on turn 4 i can either play a 5 drop or a 3 drop and a 2 drop? Why would i need to play the perfect curve in the first turns of the game if i'm not playing cEDH?
Because T3 you were going to cast a draw spell to help you hit more land drops instead, but you couldn't afford it until T4 because T2 you did nothing but play a tapped land, and T3 you played your rock. Or maybe T3 you were going to play another ramp spell, which you couldn't afford until t4 now.

Not always, I didn't say always. Even if it's not cEDH, a good deck should have a plan, a sequence of plays that it wants to make. Aggro creatures on curve, setting up defenses for a planeswalker, keeping up counter mana, ramping, tutoring, whatever. Depending on the specifics it's very possible to set yourself back a turn if you're down a mana on a critical early turn. Possible later, too, just a lot less likely since you're more likely to have alternate plays. And depending on your deck, it might be a very long time before a tango can enter untapped.

Sure, if you're playing jank it's less likely to matter, but if you're playing jank then you probably don't need to worry that much about your land package.
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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

So tangoes are pure gold for 2c decks in my opinion; fetchable, both colors. I often will get one when I can afford an etb tapped land off a fetch which is nice.

In 3c decks, I tend to run two kinds of manabases -- low basic and high basic. My 9 fetch manabases tend to run 12-15 basics and when I do that I will usually run one or two tangoes just because I can often soak them early and they're very good late as another pain free option. I do not run these in my on-color-fetch-only 3c manabases of course as that usually means cutting down to <8 basics.

I think it's a crying shame they have gone years without printing the rest of this cycle in standard as I'd love to play them in golgari and simic land themed decks.

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Post by 3drinks » 4 years ago

Cyberium wrote:
4 years ago

Fetch land is vital in any deck, and able to fix your colors right from your library is a plus, even if they may enter tapped. Tango lands are great in 2 color decks and good in 3 colors, but not recommended for 4+ consider such decks already run at least seven Ravnica dual lands, there's no need for Tango.
I'm not so sure. In 4c I definitely recall fetch×11, abu×7, shock×7, tango×3, bicycle×3, snow basic×8, city, confluence, tower, pool = 43. That's as hot as you can generate in mana today.
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Post by DirkGently » 4 years ago

3drinks wrote:
4 years ago
I'm not so sure. In 4c I definitely recall fetch×11, abu×7, shock×7, tango×3, bicycle×3, snow basic×8, city, confluence, tower, pool = 43. That's as hot as you can generate in mana today.
I don't understand why you'd care about basic land types after the first couple in each combination. What's the scenario where that matters? Even if you're recycling fetches with LFTL, crucible, etc, you can just start hitting basics and it probably won't matter once you've got all your duals and shocks in play. Generally I default to fetching basics at a certain point anyway, just in case someone has ruination or something.

Not to mention, with 8 basics, seems like tango lands would enter tapped until like turn 10, unless you've got a bunch of basic-only land ramp pulling them out.

Plus you're leaving no room for cradle, ancient tomb, or any of the many powerful utility lands out there.
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Post by 3drinks » 4 years ago

If you're on 4c, you really don't care about Tomb. Hitting colours > hitting CC. You might run a Lotus Field, maybe, although I wouldn't.

Even once you start cruci-fetching, you're still guaranteed to hit your land/turn with basics and not giving up cards in hand to do it. What's more, fetch lands plus duals is fixing any colour you can possibly need and that's worth more than maybe drawing a nontyped nonbasic that might add the mana you need.
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Post by schweinefett » 4 years ago

Well hey.. i like these lands. Moreso in EDH than other formats though.

You're likely to have 2 or more basics in play anyways, and being fetchable means that you're able to do weird things like use a R/G fetch to get a G/W land to swords a guy in a pinch.

It's great as a budget alternative to the ABU duals (at least they were budget last i checked), and usually doesn't come into play tapped. In many EDH decks i build, i'd aim for 3 starting lands anyways in-hand, so you're able to sculpt those turn 3 plays without skipping a beat turns 1-2.

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Post by 3drinks » 4 years ago

February 24th, 2020; Eyes of the Watcher



Hmmm. I kinda dig this really. "Would you pay 1 for a scry2 on all instant and sorcery spells? Y/N."
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Post by MeowZeDung » 4 years ago

Mana sinks are good, and ones with relevant abilities even more so. But scrying is best when it's just free gravy on top of something else, OTOH scry 2 is pretty tasty. I think I'd lean more towards jace's sanctum or Trail of Evidence though. The artifact could be relevant apart from the card draw in some decks.
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Post by schweinefett » 4 years ago

yes, it's good. The 3 cmc for a 'do nothing' isn't great though, but when left alone, it can REALLY help you dig through your deck.

compare opt with:
1u
instant
scry 1, scry 2, draw a card. It's almost as good as impulse!

or in an extreme example, enter the infinite + scry 2. mind blown.

i guess in a spellslinger deck like talrand, needing to search for that single bounce spell, being able to scry away stuff with extra mana mid-late game can be insidiously great.

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Post by Sinis » 4 years ago

3drinks wrote:
4 years ago
February 24th, 2020; Eyes of the Watcher
The 'pay 1' part is actually pretty bad. Imagine you're trying to make a play where you're holding up mana for a counterspell. Adding one or two could break the whole thing.

That said, I'm sure it's exciting with filtering cantrips or draw-spells, or with cards that especially care about the top of your library (any card with clash i.e. Titan's Revenge, something like Judge Unworthy, or Reason // Believe).

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Post by DirkGently » 4 years ago

3drinks wrote:
4 years ago
Even once you start cruci-fetching, you're still guaranteed to hit your land/turn with basics and not giving up cards in hand to do it. What's more, fetch lands plus duals is fixing any colour you can possibly need and that's worth more than maybe drawing a nontyped nonbasic that might add the mana you need.
What?

Yes, fetches + duals is the best fixing around, but I don't see how tangos contribute in a significant way once you've already got duals and shocks. Sure, you COULD fetch a tango, but if you didn't have the tango you could just go fetch a dual or shock and it'd be essentially the same effect, if not better.

If, somehow, you have a set of fetches but no duals or shocks, then yes, tangos are going to make a big difference, but that's a pretty damn weird scenario given that fetches are much pricier than shocks (and bicycles, which I'd rate above tangos as well).

So since fetching them is basically irrelevant, what remains is how good they are when you just draw them. And they compare pretty unfavorably to many other nontyped lands.
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Post by onering » 4 years ago

I gotta second bicycles as better than tangos. Being able to toss them for 2 late is big, enough to outweigh the etb tapped.

But I do run tangos in 2 color. You can run duals, shocks, bicycles, and tangos with 4-6 relevant fetches and hit at most 10 land. Add command tower and if applicable the battlebond dual your at 12 add a couple other choice duals to get to 14. Then you have 10 slots for utility and you still have room for 14 basics, which is enough to make tangos come in untapped often enough to be good. The result is a Mana base that's nearly as smooth as mono color, moderately resistant to nbl hate (and if red able to run blood moon), and packed with decent utility. Tangos are near the bottom here though, so depending on the deck they may get cut for another utility slit or in favor of another more synergistic dual, and as more duals are printed they may be outclassed even in 2 color soon.

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Post by MeowZeDung » 4 years ago

Sinis wrote:
4 years ago
The 'pay 1' part is actually pretty bad. Imagine you're trying to make a play where you're holding up mana for a counterspell. Adding one or two could break the whole thing.
This is exactly why I'd rather run jace's sanctum. Not only is it a free scry 1, it's triggered by a discounted spell. Furthermore, a lot of your counters now cost and come with a scry.
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Post by Sinis » 4 years ago

MeowZeDung wrote:
4 years ago
This is exactly why I'd rather run jace's sanctum. Not only is it a free scry 1, it's triggered by a discounted spell. Furthermore, a lot of your counters now cost u and come with a scry.
See, I don't run Jace's Sanctum because I feel like it's cost is too front-loaded and that scry 1 isn't really enough to justify that. 4-mana do-nothing is a lot, even if it's realistically 3-mana if you're going to trigger it immediately.

I think the real problem with these kinds of effects is that they're not impactful enough, and there's no way to reliably or significantly increase their impact. Scry 1? Scry 2? How many scrys are we getting over a game? 10? 20?

It's a hard sell, when we could just play Sensei's Top/Mirri's Guile + fetches, Sylvan Library, Search for Azcanta, etc. There are better/cheaper ways of getting card parity. There's better dig and better value elsewhere, basically.

Jace's Sanctum is almost a sell for me on the basis of the cost reduction, but I don't think I'd play it except in the most instant/sorcery heavy decks.

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Post by MeowZeDung » 4 years ago

The discount is the main appeal for sure. My point is just that as far as a scry is concerned, I'd rather have a free scry 1 than a 1 mana scry 2 in a spellslinger deck.
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Post by BeneTleilax » 4 years ago

The issue is that it both does nothing on its own, and is not itself part of the types it cares about. If it cost 1, it would be another Annoying Blue Staple, as-is it basically only sees play in the kind of Mizzix decks that want to prove they're Not Like Other Mizzix Decks. And Melek, but he's basically the former category.

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Post by hyalopterouslemur » 4 years ago

Anything that gives kicker and lets you scry (or better, draw, but this just scrys) if the spell is kicked is playable. Not necessarily good, but playable. Here the problem is that Jace's Sanctum is better.
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Post by folding_music » 4 years ago

mmm my Arjun deck has Unifying Theory in it right now, maybe that should be Eyes of the Watcher instead? my decks are more like 3 or 4s out of 10, but this card suits me down to the ground!

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Post by MeowZeDung » 4 years ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
4 years ago
The issue is that it both does nothing on its own, and is not itself part of the types it cares about.
I can't tell if you're referring to the RCotD or Jace's Sanctum, but I'm assuming Sanctum given the context of the post right before yours. What you're saying is true generally speaking, but there are decks that would be fine with that. I've come awfully close to testing it in my Kykar list a few times because it would trigger Kykar by itself and discount the vast majority of my other spells (I happen to play a instant/sorcery spellslinger build of Kykar). I think the question worth asking is how quickly it recoups the . If it's discounting your most prevalent spell type and giving you a scry to boot, I'd say it pays in value after 2-3 triggers, and everything after that is pure value. So, it depends on the build, but the vast majority of spellslinger decks will find 3 casts with a discount to be absolutely trivial, and the scry goes very nicely with the cheap cantrips spellslinger decks often run a lot of. Discount + Scry is a very powerful combination for hand sculpting in a spellslinger shell, which is why IMO sanctum is so much better than RCotD.
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Post by MeowZeDung » 4 years ago

folding_music wrote:
4 years ago
mmm my Arjun deck has Unifying Theory in it right now, maybe that should be Eyes of the Watcher instead? my decks are more like 3 or 4s out of 10, but this card suits me down to the ground!
The draw is so much better than the scry with Arjun, the Shifting Flame though, since your new hand will be the same size as your last. If all you do is scry, you have very good odds that one of the other cards you Mindmoil into are just better than what you scryed. That said, Unifying Theory is not the optimal draw option, but if you are building for 3-4/10 I'm sure you have motivations beyond optimization and that's cool.
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Post by BeneTleilax » 4 years ago

MeowZeDung wrote:
4 years ago
BeneTleilax wrote:
4 years ago
The issue is that it both does nothing on its own, and is not itself part of the types it cares about.
I can't tell if you're referring to the RCotD or Jace's Sanctum, but I'm assuming Sanctum given the context of the post right before yours. What you're saying is true generally speaking, but there are decks that would be fine with that. I've come awfully close to testing it in my Kykar list a few times because it would trigger Kykar by itself and discount the vast majority of my other spells (I happen to play a instant/sorcery spellslinger build of Kykar). I think the question worth asking is how quickly it recoups the . If it's discounting your most prevalent spell type and giving you a scry to boot, I'd say it pays in value after 2-3 triggers, and everything after that is pure value. So, it depends on the build, but the vast majority of spellslinger decks will find 3 casts with a discount to be absolutely trivial, and the scry goes very nicely with the cheap cantrips spellslinger decks often run a lot of. Discount + Scry is a very powerful combination for hand sculpting in a spellslinger shell, which is why IMO sanctum is so much better than RCotD.
I was talking about Eyes of the Watcher. Which is a waste of a good name to boot.

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Post by 3drinks » 4 years ago

Tuesday, February 25th, 2020; Mulch



How many of these effects do you play? I suspect these are a bit under played, despite us realizing how important these are.
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Post by schweinefett » 4 years ago

it was very good in my (now taken apart) child of alara 'lands' control deck. sure i might mill some 'key' pieces, but 2 mana draw 2-4 cards? most blue cards can't even do that.

Its probably quite underplayed as you say, but it really does require a deck to be built around it. Just cuz you run green doesn't mean you should run mulch.


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