Tempo: The hidden cost of spells that don't do anything

[DirkGently]

I think you can accomplish a jank-ish meta by having the right limitations - play PDH, play set commander, play pre-modern only, etc. Otherwise power creep is probably inevitable.

[Treamayne]

Thanks all, I was just trying to answer @Avacyn Believer's question.

I think you can accomplish a jank-ish meta by having the right limitations - play PDH, play set commander, play pre-modern only, etc. Otherwise power creep is probably inevitable.

And that right there sums up the problem. When you have no Meta, you can play whatever (most of my decks are Tribal EDH or Rainbow Stairwell EDH; but you'll never find like-minded games and you are either hated out fast, or irrelevant and ignored. Neither of which make for a fun time. Rule 0 and other considerations only matter when they are a factor - and when all games are against random players on MTGO (no Clan); where Rule 0 is not possible. . . well the results are as-shown.

I would not care nearly as much if there were other Casual venues to explore - but WotC's version of Commander killed all other options (at least on MTGO)

[Avacyn Believer]

Hm, fair enough, thanks for explaining @Treamayne. I can't say I have much experience playing online, I never enjoyed the experience but I think that the online environment is more prone to reflect the changes in Commander that you describe, than playing in person because online everyone has access to all cards (or at least by my understanding it is lot cheaper to have access to all the cards).

My experience playing mostly in different LGS across the country is that most people don't spend that kind of money on MtG, which I think is a big limiting factor to how powerful/optimized the average deck gets, the cards available to people. Back in the days of Standard when I still played that format, netdecking was a term used often, but in Commander I never hear it. So sounds to me like we have quite different experiences over the last few years (I only been playing Commander since 2016/17) with what kind of decks we come across.

Though I can relate to some LGS groups being bit toxic, especially if the crowd is small. Sometime it does take effort to find a decent group, but they are out there. I'd have thought it would be easier to find people who feel the same as you do online, to play in more "old times EDH" environment.

[3drinks]

BLUF*: I feel like MtG has passed me by, and there is now no more formats for players like me (tons of theoretical formats, but none you can actually get a game playing). I've been playing since The Dark (Jun 94) and I hate to give the hobby up, but I have had 1 game that I felt good about afterward in the last five years. I just really miss actual casual formats.

I have come to believe there are actually three related but distinctly different formats: EDH, Commander, and cEDH (probably more appropriately Competitive Commander - CC). EDH was a format for jamming 99 little used cards in a deck with a General and spending a few hours of fun. Winning didn't matter, Losing didn't matter, Efficiency certainly did not matter. Fun mattered. Doing your thing (whatever that may be) mattered.
Then came Commander 2013** - popularity soared efficiency became a factor as more and more people flooded the format. Commander was born; and it's a format where playing an actual Legends Elder Dragon as your general was "interesting but irrelevant".
cEDH and French Banlist were around the same time, but even more focused on efficiency and winning (especially as access to Legacy and Vintage games dried up and all those players needed a new home to exercise their skills).

I have been an online primary player for a long time (work travel requirements and other factors). A decade ago, I would say that I was playing a about 60% Tribal Legacy, 20% Star / 5 Moons, 15% EDH, 5% Emperor/2/3HG. Shortly afterward WotC took away our access to 5 and 6 player games. Then they removed support for Tribal deckbuilding, then they removed all "house rule" support (MTGO used to allow the game builder to include things like "attack left/right", "spell range", etc).

My last in-person playgroup was 2017 (for a few months in Savannah); and my current B&M stores are toxic with pubstompers (at least the last 2-3 times I have tried to play there on a Commander night).

The result is that there are no supported casual formats (even Pauper has become hyper-competitive) left, because "Commander" is theoretically casual (but not as casual as EDH was) and so popular you can't find anybody to play anything else.

The best thing would be for PreDH to be recognized as that's specifically what you (and to an extent, me) are missing. The days where Rend Flesh was premium removal, and Akuta, Born of Ash was quite the voltron. What we're seeing now is no longer wishing for certain cooker cutter best of cards to be in format because WotC prints them directly. The end result is high homogenization and further homogenized with over pushed crap that you feel like a fool to not get ahold of.

I get it. I've noticed in every iteration of Community Build-A-Deck since I've started the activity so much of it is the same because we just have a dearth of every effect imaginable. Back then, sure we had Regrowth and E-Witness and then after that you were looking at some really marginal cards or more expensive higher payoff cards if you can leverage them a la All Suns' Dawn et al if you wanted more recursion. Or ambition's cost/ancient craving being more than binder rot because they were the next best draw after Night's Whisper. I guess, this is the natural trajectory of any CCG - WotC can't sell reprint packs because players have them, and they won't sell packs of obviously inferior cards (see also, Nemesis & Prophecy, Mercadia block) so how do they maintain their business model ... by selling you stronger cards. Which means power creeping the older ones. While I believe that some of the "creep" is fine (no one liked playing Doom Blade and Terror) so I'm happy to see an Infernal Grasp to compliment my Devour in Shadow, but the obvious bomb plants to draw n00bs into buying packs in the hopes they'll crack a Dockside, S-Tithe, Gnawbone, or Ancient Dragon well that's the biggest offense WotC has done since making G the best colour in the format.

The upside though, is we're not stuck playing cards like Illuminated Folio just to draw a card every turn, so it's not like it's been without merit. It's just that our old faves and powerhouse cards like vindicate|apc and spiritmonger|apc aren't near as universal or even playable, as they once were.

[Treamayne]

BLUF*: I feel like MtG has passed me by, and there is now no more formats for players like me (tons of theoretical formats, but none you can actually get a game playing). I've been playing since The Dark (Jun 94) and I hate to give the hobby up, but I have had 1 game that I felt good about afterward in the last five years. I just really miss actual casual formats.

The result is that there are no supported casual formats (even Pauper has become hyper-competitive) left, because "Commander" is theoretically casual (but not as casual as EDH was) and so popular you can't find anybody to play anything else.

The best thing would be for PreDH to be recognized as that's specifically what you (and to an extent, me) are missing. The days where Rend Flesh was premium removal, and Akuta, Born of Ash was quite the voltron. What we're seeing now is no longer wishing for certain cooker cutter best of cards to be in format because WotC prints them directly. The end result is high homogenization and further homogenized with over pushed crap that you feel like a fool to not get ahold of.

<snip>

The upside though, is we're not stuck playing cards like Illuminated Folio just to draw a card every turn, so it's not like it's been without merit. It's just that our old faves and powerhouse cards like vindicate|apc and spiritmonger|apc aren't near as universal or even playable, as they once were.

Partially yes. But I can't find it in myself to only blame power creep. At least to me >60% of the problem is the players' mindsets.
Sure EDH always had "winning" but it seemed to me that 12-15 yrs ago it was much more about "a few hours with friends" and a lot less about "what's my win percentage tonight."

The irony is, of course, that the format philosophy is nearly non-existent unless, of course, you already have an established playgroup that "cares" about "fun."

Commander is for fun. It's a socially interactive, multiplayer Magic: the Gathering format full of wild interactions and epic plays, specifically designed as an alternative to tournament Magic. As is fitting for a format in which you choose an avatar to lead your forces into battle, Commander focuses on a resonant experience. Each game is a journey the players share, relying on a social contract in which each player is considerate of the experiences of everyone involved. . .

So, the format built to be a refuge away from needing to care about land ratios and mana curves, is now all about land ratios and mana curves (and other things, of course).