Unreleased and New Card Discussion

[NZB2323]

Change the Equation seems like a great card. Staple in counterspell decks?

[DirkGently]

Sunfall, don't give Roland emmerich ideas. Nice upgrade to Phyrexian Rebirth though.

Change the Equation seems like a great card. Staple in counterspell decks?

What? We have 2mv universal hard counterspells with upside in this format. Idk how deep you'd need to get to run this, but I suspect you'd be cutting pretty deep into your lands to fit them in.

[NZB2323]

Sunfall, don't give Roland emmerich ideas. Nice upgrade to Phyrexian Rebirth though.

Change the Equation seems like a great card. Staple in counterspell decks?

What? We have 2mv universal hard counterspells with upside in this format. Idk how deep you'd need to get to run this, but I suspect you'd be cutting pretty deep into your lands to fit them in.

Outside of Mana Drain what 2mv universal hard counterspell with upside is there?

[Mookie]

Outside of Mana Drain what 2mv universal hard counterspell with upside is there?

Remand and Arcane Denial, depending on how highly you value card draw. Delay if the game is fast enough and turning off graveyard recursion is important.
That said, I'm pretty low on Change the Equation - the spells that are most important to counter are usually expensive, and it categorically misses all of them. Seems good in other formats though.

[duducrash]

Sunfall, don't give Roland emmerich ideas. Nice upgrade to Phyrexian Rebirth though.

Change the Equation seems like a great card. Staple in counterspell decks?

What? We have 2mv universal hard counterspells with upside in this format. Idk how deep you'd need to get to run this, but I suspect you'd be cutting pretty deep into your lands to fit them in.

I think Sunfall is pretty good. 5cmc exile is sweet. The body is extra. Nowadays every deck is a GY deck so that's extra. Heroic Intervention , Tamiyo's Safekeeping and other several indestructible or adjacent cards are also a thing

[Cyberium]

Compare that to Shorikai, Genesis Engine and it's not really even close.

Most commanders fall short when compare to Shorikai though. :3

That said, I notice ZaO also triggers on damaging a Battle, which means you can technically get multiple triggers against the same player by attacking Battles, in addition to extra combat and Doublestrike. I also like the fact that ZaO doesn't require a dedicated dragon deck to function, but it can adorably bounce dragons like Crystal Dragon // Rob the Hoard/Sapphire Dragon // Psionic Pulse.

[capitacommunist]

I have somewhat mixed feelings re: the Praetors so far - they're pretty hard to evaluate.

Looking only at the front sides:

• Elesh Norn I'm pretty low on - Norn's Annex is a significantly weaker effect than Ghostly Prison, and I'd almost prefer Michiko Konda, Truth Seeker (who I do not consider to be playable). The solid 3/5 body helps, at least.

I think you are underestimating Elesh Norn by comparing her to Norn's Annex as she also triggers on damage dealt to creatures. It makes blocking your attacks much more difficult, and if your board is large enough it also limits red sweepers.

[Hawk]

Change the Equation seems like a great card. Staple in counterspell decks?

Not seeing it, really. As noted we have Counterspell and Mana Drain for unconditional 2 mana counters as well as Arcane Denial and Remand as unconditional 2MV counters with some pros and cons. I could see Baral, Chief of Compliance maybe considering this, but think it's too niche for other counter-heavy commanders like Phelddagrif or Kefnet the Mindful.

Rona, Herald of Invasion seems interesting to me. She's a looter with an untap trigger in Dimir and her backside is fun. While obviously she's playing in Phyrexian Obliterator spaces notably her wording means that spamming Pestilence effects gives you a sort of random Omniscience effect, so that's spicy.

[Mookie]

More stuff!

• Rona, Herald of Invasion does indeed look interesting. Dimir doesn't have many ways to deal damage to its own creatures, but Prodigal Sorcerer and Pestilence exist. Beyond that, a pseudo-Phyrexian Obliterator in the command zone is certainly abusable. (and I guess the front side is a looter for reanimation / madness / graveyard shenanigans too)
• Kroxa and Kunoros is yet another titan I can't run in Samut. Boo, hiss. Repeatable reanimation (plus three solid keywords) is certainly a thing though.
• Djeru and Hazoret gives a free legend on attack. I'm sure this is totally fine.
• Invasion of Gobakhan isn't likely to see much play in EDH, but it's an interesting option in other formats. I guess black has traditionally been the only color with hand disruption, so it's interesting to see it continue to spread into white.
• Phyrexian Censor looks very obnoxious.

[Sporegorger_Dragon]

That thallid straight up chugging that oil. I'm pretty sure that's only second to Steady Progress.

[Hawk]

That thallid straight up chugging that oil. I'm pretty sure that's only second to Steady Progress.

Gotta say, people willingly taking the oil because "Oil is cool and Phyrexia is right" is a bit too real but is also hilarious. Special shout-out to Mutagen Connoisseur whose flavor text I wish was the top comment on Reddit: "More of that strange oil? It's probably awesome!"

[duducrash]

Djeru and Hazoret don't feel particularly Djerury tbh. Does sound fun though. I will 100% build Shanid, Sleeper's Scourge legends i'm talking about it for months but never actually do anything about it

[Lifeless]

The new Rona is the first card that's really struck my fancy for whatever reason. Self ping on the flipped side sounds really fun.

[Hawk]

Our boy Urabrask got the last laugh - card seems INSANE, and maybe the best of the Praetor Sagas?

- A 4/4 first strike for 2RR. Meh, not bad...
- Deal 1 damage when I cast an instant or sorcery? To target opponent and not all opponents? Guttersnipe is stronger!
- ...wait, and add R?!?!? Okay, now we're cooking. That's actually sorta insane.
- WAIT, and he transforms into his saga mode for just R? Sure, gotta cast 3 instants or sorceries in a single turn but with his other abilities that seems very doable.

And as for The Great Work: we start with a one-sided Sweltering Suns on your least favorite enemy, then get 3 (!) treasures, and then we get to flashback from ALL GRAVEYARDS as we shift back into Urabrask. You know, the Urabrask who will give us R back for all the spells we're flashing back, so we can just get right back to The Great Work? Yeah. Seems awesome.

Played right, Urabrask will offer very few windows for interaction before he gets to Work and keeps it Working. I super dig the card.

[Mookie]

Hmmmm.... I don't think Urabrask is quite as splashy in EDH as some of the other praetors, but could have implications elsewhere. Cast on T4 (or T3 off a ritual), then Gut Shot → 2x Lightning Bolt for an immediate flip? Follow up a few turns later by flashing back a bunch of cheap burn if your opponent is somehow still alive. Getting spells from your opponents' graveyards is a little niche, but it cool when it does come up (particularly since the treasure helps cast off-color spells).

In commander, I'm not that sold on mono-red storm with Urabrask in the command zone, but could be interesting. Seems very solid in the 99 of other spellslinger decks though - redundancy for Birgi, God of Storytelling // Harnfel, Horn of Bounty is certainly appreciated.

[TheGildedGoose]

From my Erebos primer, circa 2018:

Well, well, well.

[Venedrex]

Our boy Urabrask got the last laugh - card seems INSANE, and maybe the best of the Praetor Sagas?

- A 4/4 first strike for 2RR. Meh, not bad...
- Deal 1 damage when I cast an instant or sorcery? To target opponent and not all opponents? Guttersnipe is stronger!
- ...wait, and add R?!?!? Okay, now we're cooking. That's actually sorta insane.
- WAIT, and he transforms into his saga mode for just R? Sure, gotta cast 3 instants or sorceries in a single turn but with his other abilities that seems very doable.

And as for The Great Work: we start with a one-sided Sweltering Suns on your least favorite enemy, then get 3 (!) treasures, and then we get to flashback from ALL GRAVEYARDS as we shift back into Urabrask. You know, the Urabrask who will give us R back for all the spells we're flashing back, so we can just get right back to The Great Work? Yeah. Seems awesome.

Played right, Urabrask will offer very few windows for interaction before he gets to Work and keeps it Working. I super dig the card.

He looks super fun. Love to see it.

[duducrash]

Urabrask is sweet! For sure going into Veyran, Voice of Duality where Birgi, God of Storytelling // Harnfel, Horn of Bounty and Storm-Kiln Artist are awesome

Invasion of Theros whenever X draw a card is a net negative for the format and a design space I wish wotc would do less. At least limit it 😵‍💫

[toctheyounger]

Yeah, wow. Even if you never flip Urabrask he'll pay for himself in no time. Second Birgi is amazing.

[toctheyounger]

I'm not scrolling back to see if it was mentioned, but Rona, Herald of Invasion...there's bound to be some efficient way to bust her. The way she's worded you can totally abuse her ability to exile your own stuff and just empty your hand at zero cost.

[DirkGently]

I'm obviously going to do a review of the entire set's legends once it's fully spoiled, but now that all the V3 praetors are spoiled I wanted to do a quick rundown of my thoughts on them:

Elesh Norn - Front half is pretty vanilla - obvious comparison is to norn's annex, but I don't think the comparison is altogether favorable to Elesh. She's a lot better offensively, because she'll trigger for your blocked creatures, but annex requires 2 life payment for opponents without white mana whereas Elesh allows colorless, and annex also takes payment in advance, which crucially means that an alpha strike can't invalidate the cost. Also annex just isn't that good of a card. So I'm pretty low on the front side.

Cost to flip is very high. But obviously a white deck can generate a lot of tokens to make it pretty manageable. The big risk here is that she eats removal in response.

The back side is a little slow. Getting a bunch of 2/2s is fine but you kinda just got 2 of them since you sacrificed 3 creatures to get here. The second mode is a potentially big swing, but it's so telegraphed and doesn't provide evasion - certainly Akroma's Will does a much better alpha strike. However, the third mode does do some nice work...but again, it's so telegraphed that it's hard to imagine it being very competitive. It would have been a lot better if it switched places with mode 2, so it could come down quicker and clear the way for the alpha strike. It's also a bit awkward with the flip condition and second mode that probably wants to have a lot of random soldier tokens and a go-wide board. I guess you can make servos or something, but it's a lot more restrictive in that case.

Overall she seems like an interesting token commander with a lot of different focus points, but I think the slowness and disruptability are a big concern.

Power: C+
Design: C

Jin-Gitaxias // The Great Synthesis

I could go through every section of this card but I don't think it takes any deep analysis to say that I %$#% hate this thing. The flip condition is way too easy, the built-in protection is obnoxious, and every step of the saga is absolutely stupid, especially the last one. I will not enjoy playing against this card.

Power: A
Design: F

Sheoldred

It's so weird to have legends without some corny title tacked on. Anyway, the front half is obviously pretty mid for commander given that we've seen a similar effect for much less (Sheoldred's Edict from just last set provides the same effect with more flexibility). The body is fine but certainly not impressive T5 in commander. It is nice, though, that it will trigger when she finished being a saga, providing a secret kick to the third chapter. The flip condition could be pretty easy or pretty hard...the faster the meta, the easier it is to flip (but also the slower it will feel). You could use mill to speed it up, but mill sucks and black doesn't have the best options so idk. I think it'll frequently be difficult to flip this on-curve without playing some jank. But if you're not in a hurry it will happen eventually. So you might just be better off waiting.

So what do you get for waiting? First mode is a nice way to stabilize a bit - glad it's not a forced kill in case of an archenemy situation. Second mode is pretty brutal and is indeed forced, so I guess we're not making friends anymore. And then the final mode is Rise of the Dark Realms. Which isn't necessarily insane considering the setup, but the telegraph does means there's a much higher chance she eats removal somewhere earlier in the chain. I do like that her design pushes you towards stealing enemy creatures from graves instead of your own - I wish her final mode didn't use your own graveyard tbh. The third mode being the only thing that really advances your own game plan means she's more of a slow control piece imo, in either a discard and/or removal-heavy deck. Probably not something that'll make a lot of friends but I think her design is alright.

Power: B
Design: B-

Urabrask

Last spoiled and, I'll just say it, they saved the best for last.

The front half is not bad. Stat-wise he's fine. His spellslinger trigger is the sort of thing that scares me a little bit a la Birgi, God of Storytelling // Harnfel, Horn of Bounty. Someone more cEDH-inclined could probably give better insight into that (and I am curious myself). But it's definitely useful for getting Urabrask flipped, and the pinging is pretty small, so I'm hoping that ability isn't a huge threat within his own deck.

Flip condition requires a pretty completely build-around. Very easy once you've done that, though.

First chapter is pretty weak tbh. Though I think it's better than it looks. A lot of the time only one person will be vulnerable to the wipe anyway, so targeting a single player isn't a huge issue. It's telegraphed, but at least it's as fast as can be possible for one of these. I mean you can pretty reasonable cast him on 5 and flip him immediately.

Second chapter is alright. It's a setup for the third chapter, which I love. Otherwise it's kinda boring but at least it helps to scale your mana a bit if he gets killed.

Third mode is where the magic is, though. Casting from any graveyard is so much fun. I do worry about the fact that he flips back to the front half though...definitely could enable some degenerate storm shenanigans. I'm going to hope I'm wrong about that. But regardless, if I build him, I'm going all-in on using enemy graves. I especially like that he doesn't provide fixing inherently. I'm so over the Gonti, Lord of Luxury templating. Trying to fix colors while playing mono-color is a fun little challenge, so getting it for free is lame. The treasures provide a built-in head start on the fixing, but you'll definitely be running stuff like Exotic Orchard and Fellwar Stone to give yourself more flexibility to cast a lot of enemy stuff. Seems super fun.

Power: probably C for the fun version, A if a cEDH deck materializes
Design: A-

Vorinclex

Front half is limited bomb, commander yawn. Really doesn't do anything we care about. Cost to flip is very high. So we're not starting off great.

First chapter of the saga is just okay imo. You're kinda forced into running a high percentage of fatties, which is a pretty bad strat imo. Second mode is more limited bomb commander yawn. Third mode is fun and I like it...but it's just not worth all the setup, not by a long shot. It's super telegraphed, pretty disruptable...it will have its moments, but I think Vorinclex is easily the weakest of the pack. At least he gets more forests when he re-enters. He's fun but compared to the others he's just not that strong.

Power: D
Design: B-

[Igzex]

Was hoping for better with the Granny Sengir retrain >_>

[Lifeless]

I'm not scrolling back to see if it was mentioned, but Rona, Herald of Invasion...there's bound to be some efficient way to bust her. The way she's worded you can totally abuse her ability to exile your own stuff and just empty your hand at zero cost.

Yeah it was mentioned with Pestilence at least. The only thing I don't like about her is that her front side is ridiculously overshadowed by her back, even if being on rate for a looter is nuts considering the additional value. I will almost certainly be brewing with her.

[Hermes_]

[Venedrex]

Well, whoever wanted Horsemanship, you got it!

I like how its in blue because Horsemanship is basically unblockable. The nice thing is, if LOTR has a bunch of it, the mechanic will start functioning more like flying as time goes on.