Should cEDH spin off into its own format?

[3drinks]

There already is a split. It's called Duel-Commander. Acknowledging this is a very real and reasonable alternative and honestly, the best approach to play commander in a competitive manner, rather than sticking their heads in the sand and saying "nO wE wAnT tO pLaY cDh" would be a great place to start. But these players don't want to play competitive, they want to play combo with a 40 life buffer so they don't have to play interaction and can play more way solely to protect the combo. But I'm not telling you anything you don't already know.

#micdrop

[Sinis]

The real solution comes down to the same thing it has always come down to. Talk. To. The. Players. At. The. Start.

Yes. And I think people need to be start being really clear about the kinds of games they want.

"Are the games you win often through Thassa's Oracle's trigger?"
"Yes."
"You seem nice, but that's not the kind of game I'm looking for and feel like my decks won't provide an appropriate challenge for yours. Do you have any decks that are less streamlined and/or combo-oriented?"

This is so easy to actually do, and people are just not.

[3drinks]

The real solution comes down to the same thing it has always come down to. Talk. To. The. Players. At. The. Start.

Yes. And I think people need to be start being really clear about the kinds of games they want.

"Are the games you win often through Thassa's Oracle's trigger?"
"Yes."
"You seem nice, but that's not the kind of game I'm looking for and feel like my decks won't provide an appropriate challenge for yours. Do you have any decks that are less streamlined and/or combo-oriented?"

This is so easy to actually do, and people are just not.

But people won't, because they just want to jump into a game. Then get mad when the game wasn't what they expected, despite not talking...do we see the circular problem here?

[Sinis]

The real solution comes down to the same thing it has always come down to. Talk. To. The. Players. At. The. Start.

Yes. And I think people need to be start being really clear about the kinds of games they want.

"Are the games you win often through Thassa's Oracle's trigger?"
"Yes."
"You seem nice, but that's not the kind of game I'm looking for and feel like my decks won't provide an appropriate challenge for yours. Do you have any decks that are less streamlined and/or combo-oriented?"

This is so easy to actually do, and people are just not.

But people won't, because they just want to jump into a game. Then get mad when the game wasn't what they expected, despite not talking...do we see the circular problem here?

You can lead a horse to water, something something something

[RxPhantom]

Ok sure, we can have a conversation, but I don't think a lot of people know how to have those conversations. Some mistake it for an opportunity to dictate a list of things they don't want to play against, most of which are perfectly fine, or to micromanage how others enjoy the game. Something will always be someone else's pet peeve, and at some point players have to take some responsibility, turn that judgmental eye inward, and ask themselves if they're being unreasonable. Asking someone to put their mill deck away just because you don't like mill is a bridge too far, and it's this kind of overbearing nitpicking that will drive me from a pod.

[Sinis]

at some point players have to take some responsibility, turn that judgmental eye inward, and ask themselves if they're being unreasonable. Asking someone to put their mill deck away just because you don't like mill is a bridge too far, and it's this kind of overbearing nitpicking that will drive me from a pod.

I agree with you completely.

However, the way some people talk about Thassa's Oracle, they really should be having that specific conversation, because it sounds like they won't enjoy themselves at all if they lose to it. I don't know where these games are happening because I've only lost one game to Thassa's Oracle *ever* and it wasn't a Consult or tainted pact thing, but it seems common or even ubiquitous for some people.

But, I want to bring this full circle to the topic: I think this kind of rule 0 conversation is especially necessary for the cEDH crowd, because 1) their environments are much more homogenized around cards like Thassa's Oracle, and 2) they don't actually have rule 0 conversations beyond "if it's legal, it's fair" and that instead of talking to each other about cEDH categories (like no ThOracle, or no reserved list), they would rather talk at the RC hoping something will change for everyone rather than for just them.

To clarify, it is clear that some majority of cEDH players believe ThOracle is broken and should be banned. But, I think that's shorthand for the following: "I don't want to play against ThOracle, that's not the kind of game I'm looking for." Instead of communicating this to their play partners, they communicate it to the RC. The steps are exactly the same, except they are barking up the wrong tree.

[DirkGently]

Personally I kinda love the ThOracle thing because it's so obviously the chickens coming home to roost.

EDH: "We moderate our power levels because playing with no limits becomes homogenizing and uninteresting"

cEDH: "Limiting power is for wimps and cowards. Unrestricted commander is the only real way to play."

ThOracle: *makes games homogenized and uninteresting*

cEDH: "Help, through no fault of our own our format is being ruined!"

As much as I dislike losing to ThOracle, I kinda hope it never gets banned.

[Sinis]

Personally I kinda love the ThOracle thing because it's so obviously the chickens coming home to roost.

I used to have this mindset, but, I've met some cEDH players (and know them personally) who are very decent people, so the shadenfreude for me is a bit tempered.

That said, I wish they'd just play Pioneer or Modern.

[DirkGently]

I used to have this mindset, but, I've met some cEDH players (and know them personally) who are very decent people, so the shadenfreude for me is a bit tempered.

That said, I wish they'd just play Pioneer or Modern.

I will say - I wish there was a popular competitive multiplayer format, because I do understand the desire to optimize in multiplayer rather than 1v1. But commander is honestly a terrible format for it. It's just way too breakable, and badly balanced at high power levels. 40 life multiplayer is just begging for combo supremacy.

If you want a satisfying meta at high-level competition, go play something else. Might I suggest limited?

[Sinis]

I will say - I wish there was a popular competitive multiplayer format, because I do understand the desire to optimize in multiplayer rather than 1v1. But commander is honestly a terrible format for it. It's just way too breakable, and badly balanced at high power levels. 40 life multiplayer is just begging for combo supremacy.

It's almost like... there should be another format. We'll call it 'cEDH', adjust life totals and the banned list, and then move forward from there!

[kirkusjones]

I think CEDH is too entrenched at this point and like many have said, splitting it off into its own format wouldn't solve its problems. I think a multiplayer format with its own distinct deck building restrictions but a similar card pool is probably the only way to do what Dirk is suggesting. It would require a serious concerted effort and would most likely have to be spearheaded and strongly pushed by Wizards to get it to stick.

EDIT - they could ensure the format is a smash by abolishing the reserved list and putting OG duals in the premier product. You're welcome.

[Sinis]

they could ensure the format is a smash by abolishing the reserved list and putting OG duals in the premier product. You're welcome.

I've said it before, and I'll probably say it again: The reserved list is only supported by a handful of speculators/investors treating Magic like a financial vehicle.

The vast majority of players, even those who own power, RL cards etc. (myself included!) would rather see the RL abolished and people enjoy the same stuff we enjoy.

I have this story about when I played The Abyss|LEG against a kid at a store. I'm playing Erebos, and The Abyss makes sense in the deck. Erebos doesn't die, because it's his house. Totes there. So, I'm playing Erebos and I play The Abyss against this young teen, and his eyes go super wide "the Abyss!!!" he says, and then he follows it up with "you know that's a thousand dollar card, right?" and I was super sad that he was never going to have a similar joy of playing some RL card in a deck where it mattered against other people who would appreciate its inclusion. His dejection also dampened my enjoyment of playing The Abyss in Erebos.

The RL is heartbreaking, and that's my stance on it. Just shut it down already, it's only profiting some tiny number of odious dickwads who should probably look into other financial vehicles for their excess wealth.

[DirkGently]

I've said it before, and I'll probably say it again: The reserved list is only supported by a handful of speculators/investors treating Magic like a financial vehicle.

Downvote me to oblivion, but I support it.

Commander players don't need those cards to compete. If I played legacy/vintage I might feel differently but I think it's good that building max-power decks has a massive paywall to prevent people from doing it.

I don't think the game would be enhanced by The Abyss being an easily-available card. Yes there are fun cards in there too but there's a lot of evil, evil cards on the RL.

I think having legendarily-rare cards adds mystique to the game. If abu duals got reprinted, they wouldn't be nearly as cool anymore. That kid isn't going "wow, the abyss!" If it got reprinted and costs $4.

This is a casual format. Proxy it up, broski.

I don't plan on selling my cards, but it's nice to know I have the option in a crisis without needing to worry about the prices crashing from a reprint. Nothing feels worse than coughing up the money for a cool card and then see a reprint tank the value.

[toctheyounger]

I voted no. Because there is no dichotomy here, this format runs much like everything else on a spectrum. Most of the cedh players I know also play casual, and vice versa. Aside from that, you guys seem to be painting a picture of cedh that isn't accurate. Thoracle wins do happen, sure, but with nowhere near the frequency that people seem to be suggesting.

And thats because their meta is actually fairly well balanced- for every combo deck there's as much stax (although that term is misleading) and combat oriented decks (yes, you heard right). And how cool is that? The spikiest end of the format can still get slapped upside the face by turning sideways. And not only are those decks viable, theyre strong enough to compete with the best of the best.

And another thing. Pubstomping is not synonymous with cedh. Its actually pretty rude to tar cedh players with the same brush as those edgelord pieces of %$#% that think its cool to slap down your battlecruiser build with breach lines. Cedh players don't want an easy win. If anything they want the diametric opposite.

I find having been in the format long enough I couldn't care either way, so long as it's even pegging ill play whatever. But if yall are saying yes because you think its goldfish city at the top you're basing your conclusions on falsehoods. Furthermore I think that splintering the format will just lead to a different variation of spikes at the top end playing precisely the same way. Its a self defeating endeavor.

Anyway, inb4 no u

[DirkGently]

I base my opinions on cEDH players posting online, and the pubstompers who I've inadvertently played against in LGSs. I have never seen a true cEDH pod playing in a store, but pubstomping happens fairly regularly, which leads me to believe that the latter - unless we're going to no-true-scotsman the definition of a cEDH player - is significantly more common than the latter.

if ThOracle isn't a problem for cEDH, that's fine, but regardless I don't think any concessions should ever be made to the rules for them.

[toctheyounger]

I mean it probably is closer to no true Scotsman than anything. And in fairness outside of cedh is even more so. Casual encompasses such a wide array theres absolutely no way to define a casual player. That said the cedh players I've played with and spoken to are just not interested in crapping on other people. If they play their best they wanna play your best. Again though I've come across my fair share of pubstompers too - these days its less thoracle lines and more Malcolm Glint Horn, but the difference is that these guys aren't claiming to be playing cedh. Whatever metric they're arguing on they're definitively trying to sneak under the radar to gank you. Comparatively the people I've played with running Grixis turbo naus or Gitrog dredge or Jeska Ishai or blue farm or whatever, they don't %$#%$#% you.

Couldn't agree more regarding any further concessions. Flash was a weird one, and an exceptional outlier in that it literally led to turn 0 wins which shouldn't really ever happen. Moving forward though, the cedh meta is actually in a really great place with a big variety of decks that explore a ton of different space. They're happy doing what they're doing, there's no need to ostracize them or leave them out in the cold, they're good.

[DirkGently]

I think the defining question is whether, as you put it, "they're trying to sneak under the radar to gank you". If someone sits down with a cEDH deck, then sees what people are playing and says "hang on, I should probably play a different deck" they 100% have my respect. The sure sign of a pubstomper is someone who sets down a high-powered deck and wants to talk as little as possible before the game.

As far as identifying as cEDH, I've seen in both ways. Some people shirk the label because they want deniability to squish casuals, whereas others take it as a badge of honor that just means "my deck is good". Probably mostly depends on the attitudes around it locally - I think the latter view has become more common as cEDH has become somewhat more mainstream, and aspirational for a lot people, and it's the aspirational bit that bothers me. I think increasingly people don't see themselves as gankers, but just someone who's gotten gud and now gets to reap the rewards of their "hard work", like they're farming fields of casual EDH players in front of Mogwyn's palace (Elden Ring deep cut, apologies).

I have no more ill will towards people who want to play cEDH in cEDH pods as I do for people who want to play Standard in Standard pods. It's not a format I'm interested in, but you do you. But unlike most formats that have clear dividing lines - nobody is going to confuse a standard deck for a modern deck - it's not so clear when a weaker cEDH deck graduates and needs to stop playing in a traditional EDH pod. People like winning, so they might just kinda keep playing in that casual pod with their gitrog deck...it was okay a month ago before they added those last few cards, why shouldn't it be okay now?

There's a lot of factors contributing to the competitive blurring that exists in the format, and unfortunately I think the solution isn't so simple. Have decks of different power levels, be quick at identifying the hallmarks of high-powered decks, run efficient answers, have a pre-game talk if you can, and be prepared for some games to just suck sometimes. It just is what it is. I don't think separating the formats is going to fix any of those problems, although it might mean less whining on reddit.

[BeneTleilax]

Huh, I remember the last time we had this thread, Dirk was saying my experience actually seeing cEDH pods running at local stores, and playing casual with some people from them was irrelevant compared to his own knowledge. I've seen one pubstomper who was too bad at managing his lifetotal to actually stomp any pubs, and the most annoyed I've been with cEDH players in casual is probably when they conceded midgame to start a cEDH pod.

Anyway, that further informs my hypothesis that the worst parts of the format are mostly Reddit blowhards, not folks who actually play it regularly. Having an organizing body that can speak over RickSanchez69 on r/edh would do wonders, I think, and is also the start of any real format split. WotC tried their hand at managing a competitive banlist and it sucked bad. Don't y'all still want Pengine back, or Balance?

Wrt to ThOracle, the issue is that it's become such a staple in casual, at least here. Hoof is at least dead when you don't have a board, but plenty of people seem to run ThOracle mainly as draw fixing that can win in a pinch. It makes for a gradient that frustrates Rule 0 discussions, because one one end you have people running it as a janky entomb in their self-mill deck, and on the other hand, people protesting that their combo is totally different from all the other wins on the stack because they spend fifteen minutes dicking around with Mirror-Mad Phantasm before casting ThOracle with counterspell backup.

[DirkGently]

Huh, I remember the last time we had this thread, Dirk was saying my experience actually seeing cEDH pods running at local stores, and playing casual with some people from them was irrelevant compared to his own knowledge. I've seen one pubstomper who was too bad at managing his lifetotal to actually stomp any pubs, and the most annoyed I've been with cEDH players in casual is probably when they conceded midgame to start a cEDH pod.

I don't remember what I said, but I do know that taking back anything on the internet is a sign of weakness, so I'll never back down never.

Right now I'm the pubstomper smashing people with my 99 land deck tho. Live long enough to see yourself become the villain I guess.

[pokken]

Splitting the format will never work. There'll always be people wanting to play the best you can in edh. However confused that idea really is

[CrazyPierre]

It would only work if there were sanctioning, prizes, and Wizards or an adjacent committee overseeing the banned list.
As is, cEDH is fine and a pre-game talk. Just inform what your deck does and your plan and people can decide on playing with you.

[Hermes_]

It would only work if there were sanctioning, prizes,

prizes huh

I love how my comment of "Thoracle...theoacle everywhere' is getting down voted

[Dragoon]

It would only work if there were sanctioning, prizes,

prizes huh

I love how my comment of "Thoracle...theoacle everywhere' is getting down voted

That proxying policy that requires you to write down all information without being allowed to just print the card sounds like a nightmare. They don't even allow gold-bordered cards.

[RxPhantom]

What the hell are test cards? I thought proxies were just...printed images in a sleeve with a Magic card.

[Jemolk]

@Hermes_, @Dragoon God, those proxy rules in that announcement. I've played a fair amount of proxy Vintage, and the rules for proxies have always been that they be easily recognizable as the proxied cards from across the table; your opponent should not be at a disadvantage due to you not having real cards, in other words. That is the one, solitary concern. Things like sharpie on a basic forest proxies are frowned on for exactly that reason. Writing on MDFC placeholders is barely one step removed from that -- and they actively want this?

The one thing about printed-off proxies in front of another card is that the result is slightly thicker than just a card, so if you're doing that, you need to proxy the entire deck, including basic lands. But if you're allowing 100% proxies, that is a very sensible approach to take. Forbidding it in favor of something far more confusing to look at is frankly ridiculous.