Unreleased and New Card Discussion

[Wallycaine]

I mean, "have Zulaport Cutthroat effect, sac some dudes" seems like an easier setup than "connect with a specific 5 power trampler that's got a target on it's head" to me, but I could be wrong. 2 dudes gets you X equalling 6, which seems like a decent amount.

I guess we could compare the number of zulaport effects to the number of equipment/auras/etc that make something unblockable (enough). I'm pretty sure the number comes down heavily on the side of the latter.

They also don't lock you nearly as strongly into an archetype - your "easier setup" requires one of a couple specific drain effects, plus a repeatable sac outlet, plus sackable dudes. You've pretty much restricted yourself to a single strategy by that point.

Either Yidris has a target on its head because it's a stronger card than abaddon (fair enough, he is, but that's my point), or abaddon will have the same sized target - plus all the other bits and pieces you're using to set him up which can be removal magnets in their own right.

Abaddon doesn't have to give opponents a chance to remove him, Yidris does. Unless you're granting haste, Yidris needs to live through a turn cycle, and even if you are, he still has to live through combat to deal damage. Abaddon can drop and cast a spell with cascade immediately. If there's no triggers from him hitting the battlefield, it can even be a sorcery. So even with equally sized targets on their heads, Abaddon resists removal better, since he can do his shenanigans through it, Yidris... can't.

Are we getting Universes Within versions of these cards? BftBG! has a tremendous Cult of Rakdos feel.

While they are leaving the possibility open, they do not have plans to make universe within versions of these. They're basically approaching it as "if some become popular and people want a reprint, we'll look into it", so it's probably something similar to the chances of a random commander deck card getting a reprint.

[DirkGently]

Abaddon costs 5 though. You're going to hold out to cast him plus a worthwhile cascade with enough on-board damage?

Ofc, there's opportunities to play 0-cmc stuff like Ancestral Vision off 1-cmc stuff if it's the only target, but idk if that's exciting enough to build around for commander. Hypergenesis is worth building around, but that's not available to Abaddon.

You could do a build-around Living End but that's definitely going to be a pretty complex build.

[Dragoon]

Abaddon costs 5 though. You're going to hold out to cast him plus a worthwhile cascade with enough on-board damage?

There is stuff like Impact Tremors or Purphoros, God of the Forge that can enable it as soon as it ETBs. And even if you have to wait for a turn, it's also the case for Yidris unless you can give him haste and have leftover mana. You do lose access to green which matters, but outside of that I think Abaddon is the stronger option.

[DirkGently]

There is stuff like Impact Tremors or Purphoros, God of the Forge that can enable it as soon as it ETBs. And even if you have to wait for a turn, it's also the case for Yidris unless you can give him haste and have leftover mana. You do lose access to green which matters, but outside of that I think Abaddon is the stronger option.

I'm not questioning whether you can deal damage the turn he etbs - it takes a little setup and might not be consistent but it's obviously doable - but how much sense does it make to delay casting your commander until…what, 8 mana? So you can cast a single 3-drop and cascade into a 2-drop? Not really the value I'd be hoping for given the amount of setup, unless you're doing a really specific build-around like Living End.

I can see Abaddon being stronger either in very specific decks or in decks with absolutely zero build-around (color-restrictions aside), but for decks that take at least a passing interest in their commander and aren't trying to set up a specific low-mv cascade combo I think yidris is clearly stronger. The setup is comparable (direct damage vs evasion) and he costs less, has no mv restrictions, and gives you an extra color.

[Dragoon]

I'm not questioning whether you can deal damage the turn he etbs - it takes a little setup and might not be consistent but it's obviously doable - but how much sense does it make to delay casting your commander until…what, 8 mana? So you can cast a single 3-drop and cascade into a 2-drop? Not really the value I'd be hoping for given the amount of setup, unless you're doing a really specific build-around like Living End.

You're not forced to delay him, you can just cast him and use him next turn, like Yidris, but you also have the option to use him immediately late game. Yidris needs haste if you want him to do stuff the same turn he ETBs, and you also need evasion. Abaddon costs one more mana, but you can also ramp into him using colourless mana, unlike Yidris (granted, that's a small advantage). And again, if you plan to win through combat or loss of life, Abaddon doesn't require any additional setup, whereas Yidris requires a voltron package if you want him to connect and equipment doesn't mesh too well with post-combat cascade.

[DirkGently]

You're not forced to delay him, you can just cast him and use him next turn, like Yidris, but you also have the option to use him immediately late game.

In order for the situation to be such that you'd be able to cast him with a significant of extra mana to spare, that implies that either you delayed casting him for quite a few turns, or he was allowed to live and you didn't do something to win the game. And presumably he was just removed the turn before (else you would have cast him that turn) so you already have a chance to cascade with the stuff in hand. On top of needing a damage setup etc.

This seems like a very niche situation. And ofc it's possible to do the same thing with Yidris, if slightly more difficult. Mostly because you probably don't bother with haste enablers because it's not really worth worrying about this narrow case.

Yidris needs haste if you want him to do stuff the same turn he ETBs, and you also need evasion.

I really don't think trying to do something significant the turn you play him is going to make much sense for either commander. AFAIK cEDH Yidris lists don't even run haste enablers because it's not really worth the payoff of getting to cascade with your last couple mana.

And he already comes with evasion. 4P game, there's a decent chance someone doesn't have 5 toughness untapped. But if that's not enough, there are lots of really low-impact ways to enable him, including lands that don't even take up spell slots. Play Soaring Seacliff, connect, vomit out value. Unlike Abaddon, getting any damage through at all is sufficient, whereas Abaddon cares about the amount of damage and so wants more specific enablers.

And again, if you plan to win through combat or loss of life, Abaddon doesn't require any additional setup, whereas Yidris requires a voltron package if you want him to connect and equipment doesn't mesh too well with post-combat cascade.

Abaddon doesn't just trivially work with any combat/life loss plan. Are you planning to win via a big Exsanguinate/Torment of Hailfire type thing? Doesn't really jive with Abaddon. Do you want to alpha strike for a win? Doesn't really jive with Abaddon. To really work, you need a deck that wants to deal incremental damage, ideally without same-turn mana investment, because any removal or whatnot you need to make your attack good is presumably not going to get cascaded. It is nice that, if you're playing a Purphoros, God of the Forge type of passive damage deck, you can just jam a bunch of those things in there and Abaddon will be enabled by default more often than not, whereas Yidris does require some cards you wouldn't necessarily include, but I do think that's more of a niche situation. Most of the best ways to win, whether by combat or direct damage, aren't slow and incremental because your opponents are going to do something about it if they see it coming, and Abaddon doesn't have much synergy with any strat that isn't incremental.

All this is not to say he's a strong card, he's still really strong. Yidris is just even dumber. We've hardly addressed the fact that Yidris gives you green access too. Personally I'd rather build a deck around Abaddon than Yidris if I had to pick, I think the design is a lot more interesting. Or at least, it would be if it wasn't stained by the UB original sin.

[Dragonlover]

I've been a Chaos Marine player for 25 years, I'm building Abaddon on principle. I've also been looking for a cascade commander that isn't explosively dumb, so that dovetails nicely.

Of course, wouldn't be me without some kind of nonsense restriction. So, since the tag line for the Black Legion is "In shame and shadow recast, in black and gold reborn", I'm only running monoblack cards and gold cards. I may make an exception if they do the Talon of Horus and Drach'nyen as colourless equipment, or if they put any of the characters from the novels in and they're the wrong monocolour.

Dragonlover

[onering]

Utterly uninterested in this set, it shouldn't exist. Unlike D&D, which magic was originally inspired by and thus was able to pretty seamlessly transition into being a magic set that felt like a.magic setting, Warhammer 40k is way off base from a flavor perspective. Honestly, I feel like Neon Dynasty was too futuristic and New Capenna feels like an unset from an art and card name standpoint, which is a shame because both are good sets from a card design and gameplay standpoint. Tonal and genre drift aren't good for magic as an IP. The other problem with this set is that magic is already suffering from a.glut of product and release fatigue is growing. Too many new sets and new cards are burning through players pockets and R&D's ideas too quickly. Finally, being a non pack set means that this risks having the same balance issues we've come to loathe in pushed precons. I really don't want to see a 40K card be the next Chulane.

[TheGildedGoose]

Honestly, I feel like Neon Dynasty was too futuristic and New Capenna feels like an unset from an art and card name standpoint, which is a shame because both are good sets from a card design and gameplay standpoint. Tonal and genre drift aren't good for magic as an IP.

I basically agree with everything else, but I'm willing to defend tonal and genre exploration in terms of design. Indeed, I find these sets rather refreshing in terms of flavor, but I also think it allows designers to expand mechanically and explore unmined design space. I would argue that the freer constraints allows for more innovative card design by opening up more possibilities.

EDIT: I would compare them very favorably with the rather mediocre experiences that were the Return to Castle Innistrad Sequel Parts One and Two: Of Wolf and Man

I am over the conversation about whether or not Universes Beyond is appropriate because that ship has sailed.

[Venedrex]

Honestly, I feel like Neon Dynasty was too futuristic and New Capenna feels like an unset from an art and card name standpoint, which is a shame because both are good sets from a card design and gameplay standpoint. Tonal and genre drift aren't good for magic as an IP.

I basically agree with everything else, but I'm willing to defend tonal and genre exploration in terms of design. Indeed, I find these sets rather refreshing in terms of flavor, but I also think it allows designers to expand mechanically and explore unmined design space. I would argue that the freer constraints allows for more innovative card design by opening up more possibilities.

EDIT: I would compare them very favorably with the rather mediocre experiences that were the Return to Castle Innistrad Sequel Parts One and Two: Of Wolf and Man

I am over the conversation about whether or not Universes Beyond is appropriate because that ship has sailed.

I don't know about flavor, but as someone who heard tales of how good the original Innistrad was as a set mechanically and flavorfully, the returns were a massive disappointment for me personally, as far as draft was concerned. On day one of Arena (quick) draft I happily drafted a Werewolves deck with Tovolar and Arilinn and won about five games or so. Nice! Then the news broke that Falcon Abomination and Revenge of the Drowned Startle were really good cards. From that point on MID became, who was drafting and winning, and who was drafting and doing what they could. Because the rates for the decayed mechanic were hilariously better than everything else in the set.

I had a good chuckle about how, when the pros drafted the set, everyone was saying the draft balance was fine because some people were drafting to success. What those people left out was that the reason was a good archetype was because when the entire table drafts you can draft a pretty good deck. And the reason the entire table was drafting was because it was superior to almost any other archetype by a longshot. Then . then every other color pair.

Oh, and if you drafted you would be putting yourself at a disadvantage because people figured out after day 1 that picking Silver Bolt was a good choice because it was a good card on it's own. If you were stupid enough to be drafting werewolves in the werewolf set, kiss your creatures goodbye as you watched your / opponent churn out an army of tokens and fliers, and pay 4 mana to dumpster any threat you played. What a joke of a format. The only redeeming aspect about the set overall was Daybound, Tovolar, and, that it's actually.

[Guardman]

Honestly, I feel like Neon Dynasty was too futuristic and New Capenna feels like an unset from an art and card name standpoint, which is a shame because both are good sets from a card design and gameplay standpoint. Tonal and genre drift aren't good for magic as an IP.

I basically agree with everything else, but I'm willing to defend tonal and genre exploration in terms of design. Indeed, I find these sets rather refreshing in terms of flavor, but I also think it allows designers to expand mechanically and explore unmined design space. I would argue that the freer constraints allows for more innovative card design by opening up more possibilities.

EDIT: I would compare them very favorably with the rather mediocre experiences that were the Return to Castle Innistrad Sequel Parts One and Two: Of Wolf and Man

I am over the conversation about whether or not Universes Beyond is appropriate because that ship has sailed.

I don't know about flavor, but as someone who heard tales of how good the original Innistrad was as a set mechanically and flavorfully, the returns were a massive disappointment for me personally, as far as draft was concerned. On day one of Arena (quick) draft I happily drafted a Werewolves deck with Tovolar and Arilinn and won about five games or so. Nice! Then the news broke that Falcon Abomination and Revenge of the Drowned Startle were really good cards. From that point on MID became, who was drafting and winning, and who was drafting and doing what they could. Because the rates for the decayed mechanic were hilariously better than everything else in the set.

I had a good chuckle about how, when the pros drafted the set, everyone was saying the draft balance was fine because some people were drafting to success. What those people left out was that the reason was a good archetype was because when the entire table drafts you can draft a pretty good deck. And the reason the entire table was drafting was because it was superior to almost any other archetype by a longshot. Then . then every other color pair.

Oh, and if you drafted you would be putting yourself at a disadvantage because people figured out after day 1 that picking Silver Bolt was a good choice because it was a good card on it's own. If you were stupid enough to be drafting werewolves in the werewolf set, kiss your creatures goodbye as you watched your / opponent churn out an army of tokens and fliers, and pay 4 mana to dumpster any threat you played. What a joke of a format. The only redeeming aspect about the set overall was Daybound, Tovolar, and, that it's actually.

MID had a lot of design problems for draft. RG was one of the weakest color combos I've ever seen. And it wasn't solely Silver Bolt fault. If it didn't exist, RG would've still been bad. But it pushed the color combo over the edge. Red was a horrible color all around in MID, with RW being unplayable if you didn't get enough signpost uncommons, and RU needing very specific cards that if you didn't get you couldn't just goodstuff the deck. Also they way overshot on decay, but that is a different story. Also on a different tangent, with the notable exception of VOW, red has been pretty bad for draft for the past several sets, including SNC.

And speaking of streets, RG Treasures is right up there with MID RG Werewolves as one of the worst supported limited archetypes I've ever seen.

[DirkGently]

Interesting - I didn't really get to play either set hardly at all (COVID lockdowns and whatnot), so my perspective is pretty limited, but I did play a double feature sealed event and it made me glad I hadn't bothered with either of the previous sets. It kinda made me wonder if the original innistrad was as good as I remember too. The werewolf mechanic in general is kind of awful design - if you fall behind, you just get absolutely railed, on either side of the fence. The nightbound mechanic makes it even worse, though, since if the first 2-drop werewolf flips, suddenly all the other bigger werewolves are automatically flipped even if someone casts a spell on every subsequent turn. It's like they wanted to design a mechanic that led to games that were decided on turn 2.

That and both sets combined had very few cards that appealed to me for commander, since so much of the content was occupied by tribal payoffs. I don't think I like tribal sets for limited either, tbh, it's so linear.

[duducrash]

So, new cards have been previewed. I'm not the best power level judge but it seems ... fair? I don't know anything about D&D or Baldur's Gate but it felt like regular MTG stuff.

I do have a Azorious planeswalker deck so I'm looking nicely towards

lae'zal vlaakith's champion and Elminster. I'm working so havent looked deeply into all the cards

[Igzex]

Firkraag, Cunning Instigator is such a weird precon commander. What madman thought up Izzet Dragon Goad tribal? I suppose it is better than Vrondiss, Rage of Ancients in that I wouldn't have to go out of my way to add weird cards that are bricks in any situation where I don't have my commander out. Firkraag simply rewards you for doing what you're already planning to do: Hit people with dragons until they die. I'll probably at least give it a try before I just put the card in the 99 of my The Ur-Dragon, which is what the design of the card feels more geared towards than being your new commander.

Captain N'gathrod is interesting in that I can actually legitimately use the phrase "Horror tribal" to describe something.

[Mookie]

Looking at new cards and mechanics...

• Backgrounds are an interesting twist on Partner, as a way to give your commander a bit of flexibility. I do think the mechanic is a bit weaker overall - partially due to the smaller card pool, but primarily because they turn off if your commander is removed. Still, looks like there will be plenty of quirky combinations. I guess you can also play them in the 99, but that seems less likely.
• Initiative (and the Undercity dungeon) is an interesting twist on Monarch, and provides much more varied payoffs... many of which are a bit weaker than direct card draw, but that also means it isn't quite as snowbally, which I appreciate. (if you've ever played with monarch cards in 1v1, they're... a bit broken)
• Monster Manual makes me happy. I have fond memories of Quicksilver Amulet and Dragon Arch, so nice to see a new instance of this effect.
• Robe of the Archmagi is an interesting option for any decks that happen to incidentally have a wizard/shaman/warlock in the command zone. Would I run it just to draw piles of cards off Kess? Maybe.
• Nautaloid Ship is an interesting piece of grave hate. Somewhat interesting to compare to Unlicensed Hearse, another recent grave-hate vehicle. Not quite as easy to include in a random deck as Relic of Progenitus or another, cheaper option, but definitely some significant upside.
• Battle Angels of Tyr looks reasonable. Myriad was a bit of a flop last time around - the creatures it was on were pretty meh. Looks like they're pushing it a bit more this time?
• Dynaheir, Invoker Adept looks like an excellent commander for tap ability tribal. My own build leans into untap effects, which tend to want cheaper activation costs, but cool to see an enabler for more expensive abilities.
• Gale, Waterdeep Prodigy looks very abusable. Cast a cantrip, get a free Enter the Infinite? Seems good. Or just do storm stuff. (edit: reading is hard. conditional repeatable recursion still good though)
• Baba Lysaga, Night Witch looks fun for a delirium-based deck.
• Myrkul, Lord of Bones is complete nonsense and I love it. Turning Seedborn Muse or other high-profile targets into hard-to-kill enchantments seems sweet, or you can double-dip on ETB effects. Also somewhat interesting to see a commander in those colors that has no interest in graveyard recursion. Seven mana is a lot though.
• Bhaal's Invoker (and other invokers) aren't particularly good in EDH, but I appreciate them from a limited perspective - a lot of multiplayer limited sets have had issues with actually closing out games, and a cycle of expensive win conditions at common seems like a good inclusion.
• Eilyn Harbreeze, Busybody looks like an okay draw engine for token decks - not amazing, but reasonable.
• Commander Liara Portyr looks awesome and makes me want to build a Boros deck. Not something I expected to say today.
• Baldur's Gate is... a Gate. Nice. Also a Cabal Coffers, so that's a thing. Definitely a power boost for Maze's End decks.
• White Plume Adventurer is a nice untap engine, and a way to get the initiative into the game.

Overall thoughts? Yeah, these cards look a bit more fair than the previous Commander Legends set. Definitely some strong options, but no obvious broken staples like Hullbreacher or Jeweled Lotus. We'll see if that pattern continues, but seems good so far.

[Dragoon]

Gale, Waterdeep Prodigy looks very abusable. Cast a cantrip, get a free Enter the Infinite? Seems good. Or just do storm stuff.

You still have to pay the mana cost of the other card, it's closer to a conditional Snapcaster Mage.

[folding_music]

hmmm... my fave mechanic is back and my fave showcase frame is back both in the same set <3 finally a set I'm interested in!

[Hawk]

Between Minsc & Boo, Timeless Heroes, Tasha, the Witch Queen, and Elminster I wonder if we'll get a full cycle of allied-color Planeswalker commanders? Or if they'll go incomplete again, as they did with Jeska, Thrice Reborn and Tevesh Szat, Doom of Fools as the only two walker-commanders?

I find myself totally overwhelmed by this set of spoilers - it's too much to ponder. So far nothing stands out as obnoxiously, unfun-broken like Hullbreacher or Jeweled Lotus, so that's good?

[NZB2323]

Battle Angels of Tyr is definitely going in my Tymna the Weaver/Ravos, Soultender cleric tribal deck. A 4 drop that curves perfectly with my 2 commanders, allows me to draw the maximum number of cards with Tymna, can be brought back with Ravos, gives me card draw, mana, and lifegain, which pairs nicely with cards like Voice of the Blessed, and creates creatures that can be sacrificed by cards like Yawgmoth, Thran Physician is perfect for the deck.

Cultist of the Absolute I'm not so sure about. Seems good to give +3/+3, flying, and ward to Tymna, and sacrificing creatures like Arena Rector, Academy Rector, or an ETB creature I can get back with Ravos seems good, but most of my creatures I don't want to sacrifice.

In any case Battle Angels of Tyr is a nice way to give white draw and mana ramp which isn't broken and doesn't break the color pie.

[RxPhantom]

I already dislike D&D-flavored Magic, so like AFR, I was going to skip it and go on with my life. Then I saw this Initiative mechanic and...blech. If I ever wanted to bother with dungeons, I would do so voluntarily. And the way they got there so this new dungeon wouldn't muck around with Standard or Modern is convoluted at best. Realistically, this will rarely to never affect me, but the possibility still irks me.

[RedCheese]

Not a fan of the flavor of these DnD sets personally

[WWolfe]

Cultist of the Absolute I'm not so sure about. Seems good to give +3/+3, flying, and ward to Tymna, and sacrificing creatures like Arena Rector, Academy Rector, or an ETB creature I can get back with Ravos seems good, but most of my creatures I don't want to sacrifice.

That's the card that had my interest, but from what I've read you can only use them with creatures that have "chose a background".

[NZB2323]

Cultist of the Absolute I'm not so sure about. Seems good to give +3/+3, flying, and ward to Tymna, and sacrificing creatures like Arena Rector, Academy Rector, or an ETB creature I can get back with Ravos seems good, but most of my creatures I don't want to sacrifice.

That's the card that had my interest, but from what I've read you can only use them with creatures that have "chose a background".

So I believe that it works as a partner for cards that have "chose a background," but you can play it as a normal card in your deck otherwise.

[Serenade]

Good to see an Abzan enchantment legend.

Background is a neat take on nature/nurture for our format.

Lots of good reprints so far.

[DirkGently]

Noble Heritage continues to be the card I'm most excited for in the set. I just hope there's a partner for it that I like.

I was skeptical of commander legends, and it ended up being among my favorite magic experiences ever. The draft format was legitimately genius. So although I'm not super into the D&D theme, and most of the cards don't really excite me, I'm going to wait and see how it plays out before I get overly critical.

I do hope there isn't a hullbreacher situation, though.