[MCD] Wishes

[DirkGently]

I think the most likely time that a feel-bad play (like the vandalblast hypothetical) is also a good play is when you're in the lead but not fully locked-in. At that point, neutering your opponents is usually your best play even if they're struggling. But if you are unable to win shortly it could definitely result in some misery. Such is life. I obviously subscribe to playing competitively as I think it results in the most enjoyable overall experience, in a sort of rule-utilitarian way, but it doesn't guarantee the best experience in each individual game.

I do think it's a fair point against unlimited wishes that it forces casual play, and another reason I support limited wishing. Personally I don't like separating sanctioned and unsanctioned either, would definitely prefer consistency. Format unity is important to me.

[tstorm823]

There has been no indication from the RC that the situation is changing. The arguments for or against have not changed, regardless of how often they are rephrased or regurgitated.

The situation is changing, though. Wizards is changing it. Companion is a change, learn is a change, the decision in Arena to make best-of-1 games use 7 card sideboards instead of 15 is a change. The inability to access cards "outside the game" is turning off increasing numbers of cards, outside the game effects were turned off in this format when there were fewer than 10 of them, now there are over 50, 10 of which have been given their own special rule to work. At the same time, Wizards has implemented a wishboard solution online for formats without sideboarding.

I disagree with lots of Legend's arguments, but the situation is definitely changing, whether the RC indicates so or not.

[BeneTleilax]

Weren't Lessons what prompted the existence of the thread? I haven't seen any significant new information since then.

[RxPhantom]

There has been no indication from the RC that the situation is changing. The arguments for or against have not changed, regardless of how often they are rephrased or regurgitated.

The situation is changing, though. Wizards is changing it. Companion is a change, learn is a change, the decision in Arena to make best-of-1 games use 7 card sideboards instead of 15 is a change. The inability to access cards "outside the game" is turning off increasing numbers of cards, outside the game effects were turned off in this format when there were fewer than 10 of them, now there are over 50, 10 of which have been given their own special rule to work. At the same time, Wizards has implemented a wishboard solution online for formats without sideboarding.

I disagree with lots of Legend's arguments, but the situation is definitely changing, whether the RC indicates so or not.

All of that has been discussed in this thread. None of it is new.

[Sharpened]

So this thread originally predates Companions, Lessons/Learn, and Arena's best of 1 sideboard changes.

None of those things (or Forgotten Realms' dungeons) fundamentally change things about wishes. Arena's best of 1 sideboard change is the only one that is close.

Companions get cited, because in other formats they occupy a sideboard slot. But that's barely relevant. They function the same coming from the Command Zone instead. It's a card thats present and revealed at the start of the game, There's no logistical issues.

Lessons, aside from mostly being weak and uninteresting, were implemented with a safety valve. Learn has a modal functionality, allowing it to not be blanked when you can't fetch a lesson from outside the game. It's hard to argue that we have to let them fetch things from outside the game when they were designed with a clause for when you can't (or don't want to).

Arena's best of 1 sideboard change is meaningful, in some ways. Not if your going to argue for letting wishes fetch anything, but if your goal is to have the format change to include the possibility of wishboards. After all, that's what the best of 1 sideboard functional is. But since Arena and Magic Online limit you to your sideboard and not your collection, letting wishes get anything is definitely not the same functionality.

I can't see wishes functioning as the baseline without creating rules for a sideboard/wishboard. I don't see a compelling reason to change the deck construction rules of the format to make wishes functional. Even though things like Partner, Companion, Planeswalker/Vehicle Cammanders, have carved out implicit deck building exceptions, making an explicit change to the rules is a big one. That's the kind of thing you rule 0 with people you are familiar with, not inflict on the format at large.

[DirkGently]

Companions get cited, because in other formats they occupy a sideboard slot. But that's barely relevant. They function the same coming from the Command Zone instead. It's a card thats present and revealed at the start of the game, There's no logistical issues.

I've seen plenty of people saying "commander is a 100 card format!!" (for example, when talking about abolishing the 100 card maximum, as well as wishes) Whatever else they might do, companions poke a hole in that (admittedly stupid) premise.

They also demonstrate that slightly changing the rules to enable some interesting cards is a possible (and can be a positive) thing.

Lessons, aside from mostly being weak and uninteresting, were implemented with a safety valve. Learn has a modal functionality, allowing it to not be blanked when you can't fetch a lesson from outside the game. It's hard to argue that we have to let them fetch things from outside the game when they were designed with a clause for when you can't (or don't want to).

Apparently divide by zero got banned in standard. They're only "weak and uninteresting" because commander nerfed them. I think un-nerfed a lot of them are reasonably powerful, and extremely interesting because of their flexibility. Really gets the old noodle working.

I guess this is speculation, but I think the looting alternative is primarily for limited playability in case you didn't draft any castable lessons, ran out of your lessons, or don't have one that's currently useful, since you'll probably have a limited selection. None of the learn cards look very "designed for commander" to me, and none are very popular for obvious reasons. I really doubt they put in the loot clause for commander, and it's obviously a much weaker mode simply to avoid feel-bads when learning would otherwise do nothing. Having that be the ONLY functionality of the card makes them massively worse than intended.

I can't see wishes functioning as the baseline without creating rules for a sideboard/wishboard.

I also prefer this solution.

I don't see a compelling reason to change the deck construction rules of the format to make wishes functional.

1) they're cool and fun
2) there are quite a few of them, and more all the time.
3) it opens up more design space for other interesting mechanics like lessons.
4) it's unintuitive that these cards currently do nothing.
5) why not?

Even though things like Partner, Companion, Planeswalker/Vehicle Cammanders, have carved out implicit deck building exceptions, making an explicit change to the rules is a big one. That's the kind of thing you rule 0 with people you are familiar with, not inflict on the format at large.

Partner and non-creature commanders do what they say on the card, but companion did require "explicit change to the rules" to work, albeit a small one. They also changed the rules to enable death-trigger commanders to function when going to the command zone. They've changed the rules a fair number of times when they thought it improved the format. I don't know by what logic you can say that changing the rules to enable a mechanic should only be done via rule 0. We have multiple examples to the contrary, and furthermore, why the hell not? I agree that we shouldn't convolute the rules to enable something minor (i.e. I don't think we should make a convoluted caveat for haakon to be castable from the CZ) but we've already got a rule on the books to explain how wishes work, so we aren't adding more rules only amending them, and wishes are an increasingly large number of cards, not some tiny edge case.

[Jemolk]

I cannot understand why anyone who has ever interacted with this thread would want to do so again. Why would anyone want to read a seventeen-point manifesto on a topic we beat to death two years ago? Do you not value your time? Are you a masochist? There has been no indication from the RC that the situation is changing. The arguments for or against have not changed, regardless of how often they are rephrased or regurgitated.

In my case at least, beyond wanting to progress the discussion, this sort of thing is just plain fun. I enjoy the discussion, the back-and-forth, the refining of ideas, the mental exercise in general. And while the arguments may not have completely been altered in their broad strokes, I think we are devising better versions of them, and thus getting closer to some sort of answer as a result. If you don't feel like you have anything left to say, that's okay, but I certainly think I do.

[Venedrex]

Can I ask for a distilled version of what the pro wishers want? I'm assuming it's a 15 card sideboard from which Wish cards can pull from, but I'd like confirmation before I jump in with my two cents. Oh and can I also ask if anyone here has played with or against wishes in an actual game of Magic, in any format.

[DirkGently]

Can I ask for a distilled version of what the pro wishers want? I'm assuming it's a 15 card sideboard from which Wish cards can pull from, but I'd like confirmation before I jump in with my two cents. Oh and can I also ask if anyone here has played with or against wishes in an actual game of Magic, in any format.

Personally I go 3. 3 wishes, it's just cute. And very safe power-wise.

7 I guess has some traction with arena. I think it'd still be okay but definitely has more room for abuse.

15 seems like way too many.

Unlimited is what Legend wants I think (although I think he'd prefer limited to nothing by a wide margin).

[Venedrex]

Can I ask for a distilled version of what the pro wishers want? I'm assuming it's a 15 card sideboard from which Wish cards can pull from, but I'd like confirmation before I jump in with my two cents. Oh and can I also ask if anyone here has played with or against wishes in an actual game of Magic, in any format.

Personally I go 3. 3 wishes, it's just cute. And very safe power-wise.

7 I guess has some traction with arena. I think it'd still be okay but definitely has more room for abuse.

15 seems like way too many.

Unlimited is what Legend wants I think (although I think he'd prefer limited to nothing by a wide margin).

Gotcha, thanks

[tstorm823]

Can I ask for a distilled version of what the pro wishers want? I'm assuming it's a 15 card sideboard from which Wish cards can pull from, but I'd like confirmation before I jump in with my two cents. Oh and can I also ask if anyone here has played with or against wishes in an actual game of Magic, in any format.

There is no "side". There are a multitude of opinions. Legend wants any card wishes, some want wish boards, I think Wizards should implement wish zones in every format

Casually, I've only ever seen spawnsire access cards outside the game. Competitive formats have used wishes, a lot.

[DirkGently]

It occurs to me that I should clarify what I meant by 15 being way too many. 60-card formats have 15 cards obviously and that's fine. Those formats share the space with the sideboard, though, and an effective sideboard usually wants redundancy, so it isn't 15 unique targets. Probably some aren't even legal targets for the wish. So 60 card is a whole different ball game imo.

It also sound like a pain in the ass. Inventing a split card of 3 different effects (my 3 wishes plan) is fun, imo. A 15-way split is kind of a nightmare to optimise. Your 15th card is presumably almost negligible, you could play the deck a hundred times and probably never cast it. But you're kinda forced to because putting in literally anything makes your deck better.

Plus my boxes can't hold 115 cards. I think 103 will be fine though.

3 does make running multiple wishes tricky though. That's probably the biggest downside (if you consider that a downside).

[pokken]

I just can't fathom wanting to risk the format combined with not being able to see how completely overwhelmingly powerful wishes can be if they get the number wrong.

3 is about a far as I go, and even that I have reservations about (because I think there is an argument that most decks will end up wanting a wishboard, and I don't want that to be automatic).

With access to 7-15 cards and no need to ever sideboard, Burning Wish is significantly better than Demonic Tutor and Demonic Tutor is a card people have vociferously argued for banning.

I think maybe I've finally hit on a way to explain the difference in power level between a wishboard when you are sideboarding and a wishboarding when you are not.

Firstly baseline facts:
1. Burning Wish is literally the defining card of a long standing legacy deck (TES). So that's pretty powerful.
2. Sideboard cards are one of the biggest factors in competitive magic - post sideboarding can swing a matchup by so much as to make some decks that have an 80% chance to win game one haf a 30% chance to win game 2.
3. Wishes are *still good* when they require you to give up sideboard slots in competitive formats

Now, understand that in commander because there is no sideboarding, a sideboard slot means nothing to normal gameplay, so 100% of your sideboard slots are dedicated to wishing.

Ergo, wishing will *despite being powerful enough to see play in vintage and legacy* be significantly more powerful slot for slot in commander.

--

Bottom line, the best wishes rate to be better than the best tutors in EDH if you have a big enough pool of cards to search from. And that means they will be everywhere, and that means a whole raft of new things you have to do. BLEH.

[Hermes_]

Has anyone jumped onto the RC discord and talked with the RC and other players about this?

[duducrash]

Can I ask for a distilled version of what the pro wishers want? I'm assuming it's a 15 card sideboard from which Wish cards can pull from, but I'd like confirmation before I jump in with my two cents. Oh and can I also ask if anyone here has played with or against wishes in an actual game of Magic, in any format.

The Lesson cards from strixhaven being legal I guess.

I played with wishes back in modern trying to make bant control work, when Mastermind's Acquisition was in standard and against WAR Karn a bunch. Its lame when people tutor out of desperation and dont know what to grab, but any card with a search your library can have that same "taking to long" effect

[Dunharrow]

I used to play commander at my LGS for prizes. My opponent cast a Glittering Wish. It was the first time I had ever seen it. Nobody argued against the player searching her binder for the perfect card and playing it. She won the game.

I later learned that wishes are not supported at baseline and that the play was illegal.

My main issues with wishes:
1. I think they will become must play cards... and I think we want fewer auto-includes, not more.
2. Some percentage of players will have high impact wish targets like Boil which is really not fun, even if it is a small percentage of players.
3. I think it will push graveyard decks out of the format because every deck will have 1-2 extra GY hate cards they can play without a downside.
4. In my experience wishes are really not fun. Silver bullets are not fun.

If wishes were to be made part of the format, I would ask for the following:
1. Very small wishboard, 3-7 cards
2. Ban the better ones pre-emptively.
3. Trial basis for 1-3 months to see the impact on play.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

I could swallow 3 card wishboards if I had to. Once someone starts going on a 5-10 minute binder hunt though, I would scoop up my stuff and find another pod/go home if other play was unavailable. I think my core issue with wishes is that I value my time more than the freedom to wish. There's a lot of things in life worth waiting for, but not that.

[Legend]

Unsanctioned event: WISHING on.
Sanctioned event: WISHING off.
I will give you my entire Magic collection if the RC considers that messy. (Don't get too excited, my collection is worth less than $1000.)

That is messy. Two sets of rules for the same card is messy.

Rule 10 is making a confusing situation even more confusing. Some very important aspects of Magic would become clear in the absence of Rule 10.

The functionality of an effect should be consistent throughout the game, not just within a format. The game isn't called Commander the Gathering. It's Magic the Gathering.

Rules and restrictions are a pre-game process, they should not be something you decide to apply to yourself mid-game. It's just not fun.

Here's Sheldon validating and reinforcing what most players already do naturally.
"That vision [for Commander] is predicated on a social contract: a gentleman's agreement which goes beyond these rules to include a degree of interactivity between players. Players should aim to interact both during the game and before it begins, discussing with other players what they expect/want from the game." – Sheldon Menery SCG)

Unsanctioned event: WISHING on.
Sanctioned event: WISHING off.
I will give you my entire Magic collection if the RC considers that messy. (Don't get too excited, my collection is worth less than $1000.)

If only we had a member of the rules committee make a post in this thread where they shot that idea down. Perhaps by saying something like:

* It's a good thing to have the base rules of Commander be consistent across all play.

It's a better thing to have the base rules of WISHING be consistent across all of Magic.

I later learned that wishes are not supported at baseline and that the play was illegal.

WISHING is supported by Wizards of the of the Coast. There's even a comprehensive rule for it that's overwritten by Rule 10. Big difference between that and "not supported at baseline". Huge difference.

Is it possible that the person who played the Glittering Wish didn't know that the play was illegal? It seems likely that they put it in their deck thinking, naturally, that since it isn't banned, that it was would function normally. After all, Rule 10 has nothing to do with deck construction (or anything else in Commander for that matter). Rule 10 is only encountered when someone is trying to play Magic.

I could swallow 3 card wishboards if I had to. Once someone starts going on a 5-10 minute binder hunt though, I would scoop up my stuff and find another pod/go home if other play was unavailable. I think my core issue with wishes is that I value my time more than the freedom to wish. There's a lot of things in life worth waiting for, but not that.

I wouldn't blame you. But in my opinion . . .

It's most likely that WISHING will require even less time than searching a library since there's no shuffling involved.

[pokken]

3. I think it will push graveyard decks out of the format because every deck will have 1-2 extra GY hate cards they can play without a downside.

This is a point I've made before but you're thinking too small. Every deck that has a particularly narrow but vulnerable strategy will get gutted by targeted hosing.

Mono colored decks, artifact or enchantment decks, token decks, etb decks (though they could use some nerfing) etc.

Any deck that is too focused becomes hyper vulnerable to sideboard cards.

Sideboard cards in regular play means good stuff the format.

(Which is why 3 is as high as I go. 7 is enough for a broad assortment of narrow hosers and a high costed wincon and a broad answer. Too damn good. Even 5 is pushing into danger zone with some wishes like living and burning).

[onering]

I think we need to separate the discussion on wishes from the discussion on Learn/Lessons, Not in terms of a thread, but in terms of solutions. The thing that would work best for wishes imo, a small wishboard, would not really work for lessons, especially if we get more in the future.

With wishes, they play best when they are essentially a modal card. 1 wish with a 3 card wishboard plays well, and it could even potentially support 2 wishes depending on your colors or the wishes you're running.. you generally don't want to jam a bunch of wishes in a deck because then you might as well be jamming the cards you'd wish for in instead, unless you use unlimited wishing.

With lessons however, the cards are mostly pretty weak, both the learn cards and the lessons themselves, and the real value of the mechanic, and what makes it fun, is that if you run a bunch of lessons you basically get reliable value that lets you get the effect you want, at least the first few times, at the expense of mana efficiency (and it also supports spellslinger decks by grabbing instants and sorceries). You really want to run as many lessons as you can, and 3 lessons just isn't worth it. It would still be a gimmicky, casual archetype even with unlimited lessons. Back when they were released I said Wizards should have created a special zone for them so they could be used in commander and wouldn't take up sideboard space in 60 card formats, and I still maintain that would have been the best option. As it stands, an unlimited lesson board would be an interesting (and safe) addition to the format.

[Dunharrow]

I later learned that wishes are not supported at baseline and that the play was illegal.

WISHING is supported by Wizards of the of the Coast. There's even a comprehensive rule for it that's overwritten by Rule 10. Big difference between that and "not supported at baseline". Huge difference.

Is it possible that the person who played the Glittering Wish didn't know that the play was illegal? It seems likely that they put it in their deck thinking, naturally, that since it isn't banned, that it was would function normally. After all, Rule 10 has nothing to do with deck construction (or anything else in Commander for that matter). Rule 10 is only encountered when someone is trying to play Magic.

Legend, I don't mean to be like this but I have no desire to restart debates with you. I just don't have the brain capacity, having a baby and all.

I will address this and leave this thread once again.

When I said 'baseline', I meant 'baseline for Commander'. I don't really like how you willfully chose to interpret this in your own way, but I know that it feeds your argument. I understand that you want someone to look at the card, say 'oh cool', and play it without needing to know that the rules are not supporting that card.
You want to cater to the player who is less enfranchised. 10 years ago we were four people pretty new to commander and didn't know all the rules. It still sucked to lose to the perfect silver bullet sitting in a 20 page binder.

If I am playing against somebody who is casual (unenfranchised) and wants to wish through their whole collection, I won't argue. But if they wish for a Stony Silence against my artifact deck I will protest for the next time.

If I am playing for packs, or playing with a group that has semi-competitive decks, I just don't want wishes. Enfranchised players can grasp the extra rules just fine.

I don't think the rules should default to the less enfranchised. They won't know the rules anyway so let them have fun. For people who are reading the rules and part of a larger enfranchised magic community, I think the existing rules make sense.

I have sat down for a commander game at pre-release with people who don't know there is a banlist, don't know the rules about color philosophy. I let them play because their Rofellos because they are ramping into Engulfing Slagwurm not Hoof. People who don't know that wishes aren't supported in commander are often breaking many rules, so who cares.
For people who know the rules, I don't think this extra rule causes any confusion.

[Jemolk]

@pokken -- I don't see the danger you're worried about here, frankly. Delver of Secrets is a crazy good card in Legacy. In commander? Meh. Monastery Mentor is absolutely ludicrously busted to hell and back in Vintage. In a more battlecruiser-style commander meta? Pretty weak, actually. Cards depend pretty heavily on their environments to determine whether or not they're good. Burning Wish is very strong in Legacy, yes. That doesn't mean it would be overwhelming in commander, though.

As for your "all narrow strategies will be completely gutted by sideboard hate" concern -- that sounds extremely hyperbolic to me. Firstly, you only have one copy of the wish, so even if there's seven options for what it can do, it can only pick one of them, and you still need that singular, specific card. Second, are you really going to shove all your best answers into the wishboard, rather than the maindeck? I doubt it. The odds that any wish, even a universal or near-universal wish like Mastermind's Acquisition or Fae of Wishes, could even approach the power level of Demonic Tutor are, in my opinion, exceedingly low. Particularly because I get the feeling that if this problem you're concerned about would arise with Wishes, it would already be a thing with those same players without them. Goodstuff is already stronger than narrow dedicated strategies, for one, and the reason it's not more widespread is because it's boring. If you're worried about wishboards being filled with goodstuff and fun police cards, I have to ask, how is that problem either unique to Wishes, or even helped by barring them from working? Surely filling niches without detracting so many card slots from the theme of a deck would be at least as common a use?

I am willing to grant that this difference in perception may be down to our different experiences and general playgroups, but from where I'm sitting, with my experience and my playgroup, it feels like catastrophizing. What situations do you regularly run into, that make you believe this specific worst-case scenario not only could, but definitively would, come to pass? I am genuinely curious, because I do not understand where this fear is coming from at all.

[DirkGently]

Besides what's already been said, I think people are overselling the danger of modern silver-bullet cards. Someone pulls a Torpor Orb out of their wishboard to slow down your etb deck when you were in a dominant position? Idk, try running some removal? Idk why people think they should get to run roughshod over everyone without pushback. Almost all "silver bullet" answers are dead to Disenchant and then you can move on with your life.

Anyway, it's not like a small wishboard would enable people to run answers to super niche decks. There are way too many archetypes. Maybe they'd run them for the most dangerous and common archetypes. I think that's a positive thing.

I think the social contract handles more egregious cards like Flashfires, but I also think it would be fine to ban flashfires and co if that's a concern. Nothing of value would be lost. I'd certainly rather have them banned than de facto banning all wishes, no matter how innocuous.

I could swallow 3 card wishboards if I had to. Once someone starts going on a 5-10 minute binder hunt though, I would scoop up my stuff and find another pod/go home if other play was unavailable. I think my core issue with wishes is that I value my time more than the freedom to wish. There's a lot of things in life worth waiting for, but not that.

Basically any size of fixed wishboard is going to be faster than any normal tutor under most circumstances.

I dunno if the binder hunt situation is likely to come up super often in the unrestricted wish meta...but I do know that, if I knew the card I needed to win the game and had a wish to get it, you can bet I'd go digging for it if I had it on me. I might be exceptionally competitive though. And exceptionally encyclopedic in my knowledge of cards.

But yeah, I don't favor unrestricted wishes. But assuming we're talking restricted wishes, I don't think time consumption is a relevant concern.

You really want to run as many lessons as you can, and 3 lessons just isn't worth it.

I don't really think that's true. There aren't a lot of relevant diversity among lessons imo - you're probably going to put in a removal spell, a draw spell, and either another removal spell or maybe a token making spell if that's in your strategy. I don't think having more, less good removal spells is going to make much difference unless you're playing multiple lessons and might need redundant targets. The main thing is simply the value of getting an additional card, even if it's not a great one. Having a fourth card that you use some tiny fraction of the time you learn isn't going to make much difference to the overall strength imo.

Most of them aren't good enough to play even if they fully drew a card anyway, so I doubt redundancy would be a big deal. Divide by Zero and Sparring Regimen could be pretty decent - the rest are niche at best. But I think I'd run Divide by Zero even if I only got to have one lesson.

edit: just for fun, I'll think it through.

mono-white: Reduce to Memory is your best removal spell easily, and then Mascot Exhibition if you want a big board or Expanded Anatomy if you're voltron, and your choice of Environmental Sciences or Introduction to Prophecy as a (terrible) fallback option.

mono-blue: Teachings of the Archaics if the easy best draw spell, so then it's Introduction to Annihilation as your removal and mascot/anatomy for board presence.

mono-black: Necrotic Fumes as long as you can spare a creature, and probably throw in annihilation and a crappy draw spell. Maybe Confront the Past for niche decks.

mono-red: no options are good really. Start from Scratch is cheaper than annihilation but so much narrower, and Illuminate History really blows. I think I'd got annihilation for versatility, mascots, and then you can go illuminate history over the colorless draw options if you want but they're all trash and you'll probably mostly be getting annihilation or mascots so who cares.

mono-green: both of greens cards are okay. Basic Conjuration is probably your easy draw option, and Containment Breach could be worth running over annihilation, or next to it if you don't want mascots.

WU: reduce, mascot/anatomy, teachings.

UB: teachings, and 2 from annihilation, necrotic fumes and mascots depending what you want.

BR: tricky. if you like fumes, them probably fumes, scratch, and mascots (or pick-a-crappy-draw-spell if you don't value mascots). If you don't like fumes, then annihilation, mascots, and pick-a-crappy-draw-spell.

RG: same as mono-green.

GW: reduce, conjuration, mascots.

WB: same as mono-white.

BG: For tokeny decks I could see going fumes, containment, and pests/mascots/conjuration. Otherwise probably same as mono-green.

GU: annihilation, teachings, conjuration/breach/maaaybe Fractal Summoning for some decks?.

UR: same as mono-blue. God red sucks.

RW: same as mono-white. God red sucks.

WUB: same as WU

UBR: teachings, and either annihilation + mascots or fumes + scratch/mascots depending if you can use fumes and/or like mascots

BRG: same as BG.

RGW: same as GW.

GWU: probably same as UW tbh unless you want the minor upside of breach as an alternative to reduce (so then reduce breach teachings).

WBG: same as GW

BGU: teachings, breach, fumes, or same as GU if fumes is bad (or maybe niche builds use one of the summonings).

GUR: same as GU. Even red's summonings are useless jfc.

URW: same as UW, thanks again red.

RWB: somehow it's still the same as mono-white. Reduce OP.

4-color: idk, reduce teachings mascots probably.

5-color: reduce teachings mascots.

Idk I think compared to having every lesson available, most of those are leaving a pretty small amount of value on the table with just 3 wishes. At the end of the day, reduce invalidates all the other removal and teachings invalidates all the other draw. If you don't have access to those, then just pick your subpar removal option and whatever value option suits your strat best and you'll be fine.

[tstorm823]

The functionality of an effect should be consistent throughout the game, not just within a format. The game isn't called Commander the Gathering. It's Magic the Gathering.

I agree, but the RC is powerless to make that happen. Your desired outcome is actually a strong showing of this: you would have wishes be unrestricted in casual and non-functional in sanctioned. But the vast, vast, vastvastvast, vast, vaaaaast majority of wish usage in Magic: the Gathering happens in competitive constructed events, which use sideboards as the available targets for wishes. So while you can argue that you're going to simplify things by letting the rules of Magic dictate the rules of commander, it would actually create a situation where a single player has to be mindful of 3 sets of rules for the same card. A lot of people who play Magic competitively play commander casually, which would give them one set of rules for standard/modern/etc, then a second set of rules if they try to play a sanctioned commander event, and a 3rd set of rules for purely casual commander games. Do you see yet why the fault here is with Wizards?

[pokken]

@pokken -- I don't see the danger you're worried about here, frankly. Delver of Secrets is a crazy good card in Legacy. In commander? Meh. Monastery Mentor is absolutely ludicrously busted to hell and back in Vintage. In a more battlecruiser-style commander meta? Pretty weak, actually. Cards depend pretty heavily on their environments to determine whether or not they're good. Burning Wish is very strong in Legacy, yes. That doesn't mean it would be overwhelming in commander, though.

As for your "all narrow strategies will be completely gutted by sideboard hate" concern -- that sounds extremely hyperbolic to me. Firstly, you only have one copy of the wish, so even if there's seven options for what it can do, it can only pick one of them, and you still need that singular, specific card. Second, are you really going to shove all your best answers into the wishboard, rather than the maindeck? I doubt it. The odds that any wish, even a universal or near-universal wish like Mastermind's Acquisition or Fae of Wishes, could even approach the power level of Demonic Tutor are, in my opinion, exceedingly low. Particularly because I get the feeling that if this problem you're concerned about would arise with Wishes, it would already be a thing with those same players without them. Goodstuff is already stronger than narrow dedicated strategies, for one, and the reason it's not more widespread is because it's boring. If you're worried about wishboards being filled with goodstuff and fun police cards, I have to ask, how is that problem either unique to Wishes, or even helped by barring them from working? Surely filling niches without detracting so many card slots from the theme of a deck would be at least as common a use?

I am willing to grant that this difference in perception may be down to our different experiences and general playgroups, but from where I'm sitting, with my experience and my playgroup, it feels like catastrophizing. What situations do you regularly run into, that make you believe this specific worst-case scenario not only could, but definitively would, come to pass? I am genuinely curious, because I do not understand where this fear is coming from at all.

For me anyway it's fairly easy to tell which effects "cross the streams" in power between legacy/commander, so I don't feel the need to worry about Arcum's Astrolabe in EDH. But tutoring and fast mana are effects that are universal. Demonic Tutor is banned in legacy - Burning Wish is legal because of its narrowness and the sideboard cost. In commander, one of those factors goes away (since losing a sideboard card is not a cost)

I feel like if you scan through the thread you can see some examples of the difference in impact between silver bullets and maindeckable answers - Arcane Lighthouse Collector Ouphe Rest in Peace Shatterstorm Back to Nature etc. Even dumb stuff like Plague Engineer.

It's not that this will come up every game. It'll just be a lot more than it does now. And at the popular level of EDH, it's going to happen all the time. Some of the wishes are good enough that they will see regular play and people are going to get hate cards with them.

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Yet another huge mechanical problem with wishboards of any size:

When do you present your wishboard? Is it part of your deck or in your binder? Are you required to show it to people before you start playing or just set it face down somewhere? What's to stop me from changing it in between every game?

In competitive play you register your sideboard, and that's a major limitation. In casual play I could change it all night depending on who I'm playing with and there's really no way for you to know without having to police that.

TITANIC BLEH.