Recent Game Knights Episode (spoilers) and Commander Play Styles

[RxPhantom]

Not to diminish what I'm sure is a fun deck, but I've played against two Kaervek decks in the past ten years whose pilots made the same stipulation. Playing against both actually sucked. It was almost as bad as those players that roll a die to decide who to attack instead of engaging in any threat assessment.

Anyway, I keep watching GK because the production value and editing is top notch. By that, I mean it's well-lit so you can actually see what's happening, and they edit out chatter, shuffling, etc. I can do without the hammy interview segments and watching the same card animations over and over. The Command Zone itself, though, has become insufferable. They're so self-congratulatory, and they're one of the driving forces behind the obnoxious drive to optimize, Optimize, OPTIMIZE! Over five mana? Get that crap outta here! On a more personal note, one of their recent in-video adds for Keeps was really mean-spirited towards bald men. You know what I don't need in the middle of a video about Magic? Getting dunked on for being bald. %$#% that.

I was really excited for Close Quarters, which was/is a gameplay series from Mitch at Commander's Quarters. I liked it better than GK in almost every aspect. Mitch said recently that the cost and time needed to produce it is very high, and future episodes may not come out as often.

[Dragoon]

I think ultimately it'd be a lot more enjoyable if they changed their production to play multiple games with different decks, reveal hands to camera, not try to puppet master the thing, and make an episode from whichever game turned out more interesting. It seems like they've got a one-take philosophy and it results in some real bad acting trying to make a garbage game look fun.

If I remember correctly, that's kind of what they did at the beginning. They didn't show their hand but they were making a second game if the first one happened to be unusually short. I guess they're now forced to do only one game due to the constraints that come with their special effects and tight schedule.

[MeowZeDung]

I was really excited for Close Quarters, which was/is a gameplay series from Mitch at Commander's Quarters. I liked it better than GK in almost every aspect. Mitch said recently that the cost and time needed to produce it is very high, and future episodes may not come out as often.

Did they ever do more than the one episode? The one I saw was great, but I never saw another. That channel does a million videos though, so maybe I just missed them.

I think the fact that at the very least one player will always be budget helps reign in the spikes for the CQ gang.

[RxPhantom]

I was really excited for Close Quarters, which was/is a gameplay series from Mitch at Commander's Quarters. I liked it better than GK in almost every aspect. Mitch said recently that the cost and time needed to produce it is very high, and future episodes may not come out as often.

Did they ever do more than the one episode? The one I saw was great, but I never saw another. That channel does a million videos though, so maybe I just missed them.

I think the fact that at the very least one player will always be budget helps reign in the spikes for the CQ gang.

No, but myself and others kept pestering him in comments for various videos, so he made this one to explain that the second one has been recorded, but it's gonna take awhile:

[Sinis]

How do you have absolutely nothing to suspend? Its baffling and I don't get it.

This kind of blew me away. Not just that he had nothing to suspend, but didn't seem to have anything else, either. He had like 8-9 cards in hand at some points, and none of it was suspend action, and none of it was interaction, so... was it all lands? Or... ? What was in his hand?!

[TheAmericanSpirit]

@DirkGently

Yeah, mobile typing in the cold at 6 in the morning ain't my forte. There's like 3 spelling errors, eck.

Edit: just wanted to mention this:

(Maybe that's just because my dad would do that sort of thing when we'd play games as a kid - you could tell it was easy for him to get too competitive, so to avoid that he'd go into this space where he just didn't care at all, and it made the games kinda boring since he wasn't really even trying.)

Reading stuff like this makes me so happy that my dad always crushed me at every game we played until the day he couldn't anymore. I still remember the first time I beat him in a game of chess with no holds barred, that was a serious and satisfying victory because of how long and hard I worked to get it. Don't pull your punches, ladies and gents, train your kid through adversity to bob and weave instead. They'll remember it.

[toctheyounger]

The vibe I get from both of them, in different ways, is that a significant percentage of what's happening is performative. That's true in the really obvious ways when they pout/gloat to camera in between plays (which are obviously shot after the game itself so they can't possibly still care that much), but also that their goal is split between the normal goals of a game, and the goal of performing the experience of an exciting game, and those goals don't necessarily align. I suspect the reason they don't make hands visible is that they're probably sandbagging correct plays for the sake a "more exciting game". Especially in the case of JLK, who seems to play relatively calculated trying to control the experience of the game - I think in this particular case the potential disaster caused him to be more explicit than usual in terms of threat assessment. Usually he seems like he's trying to both perform "hey, this is a fun casual commander game" while also carefully trying to ensure that the gameplay is enjoyable. In Jimmy's case, it seems like he mostly builds lower-powered decks and just doesn't take it very seriously, and assumes things will work themselves out. I dunno what he's like off camera, but on camera I'd say he seems detached. I'm probably reading too much into it, but I wonder if he's normally a bit more cutthroat and is intentionally trying to dial it back (probably too far back) to make the game look "fun and casual". (Maybe that's just because my dad would do that sort of thing when we'd play games as a kid - you could tell it was easy for him to get too competitive, so to avoid that he'd go into this space where he just didn't care at all, and it made the games kinda boring since he wasn't really even trying.)

On the subject of dumb misplays, why did he tap out for Commune with Lava? Surely he'd get much better value out of leaving a few mana open so he could actually, y'know, cast some stuff? Especially when someone has omniscience on the board and there's a solid chance the game will be over before his next turn. X=7 at absolute most imo. Then at least he could cast most enchantment removal he might hit and potentially save the game. To me, that's a good example of the sort of misplay you make when you really don't give that much of a %$#% about the game tbh. Like "eh, this is a thing to do I guess."

Obviously Ashlen isn't on as often, but I don't think her bad plays were made through apathy, I think they were just bad plays. Playing Kaervek on 7 was just as easy as playing the enchantment, easier since everyone knows you have it so no one can accuse you of misplaying since they don't know your alternatives. For the other guy, I also don't think he was performing in the same way either. JLK is the one corralling the various cats around the rink trying to make something watchable out of the whole thing.

I think ultimately it'd be a lot more enjoyable if they changed their production to play multiple games with different decks, reveal hands to camera, not try to puppet master the thing, and make an episode from whichever game turned out more interesting. It seems like they've got a one-take philosophy and it results in some real bad acting trying to make a garbage game look fun.

Yeah I agree. I think they probably all play towards different archetypes, like Timmies and Johnnies or whatever, and JLK more commonly has the building and play line chops to actually play the role of accomplished Johnny, whereas Jimmy's predilections clearly run more towards a Timmy. He just doesn't do well in making it believable. Like, you can be a Timmy and still hit your ramp and make sensible plays. That Commune with Lava was a perfect example, and he has plenty of others. He just did it without any thought of it achieving anything. Like, 'might as well use all my mana, idc on what though.' It kinda baffles me tbh. To play that sort of character or act that sort of way and then run a podcast that regularly does strategy breakdowns.....I just wouldn't take strategy or building advice from either of them tbh. Their budget definitely helps their decks to be more forgiving, and when you don't have that sort of budget you just have to be more lean, mean and critical of what you add.

As for their guests, I expect less. Ashlen picks cute builds (and I mean that in the best way - more like, she picks builds she feels strongly interested in and has affinity for), and they generally have pretty good synergy, but she definitely misplayed a little in this game. Same goes for Ladee, she plays pretty well in general but aims less spikey, and the others staff members aren't really on camera enough to extrapolate too much.

Ultimately I think they should do what you've come up with - film a few games and pick the best to scrub up for production. I can't actually see that it'd be any more work. All of the post-production talking heads are surely done after the fact, as well as the graphics and stuff. I'm sure it'd be a lot more consistent.

This kind of blew me away. Not just that he had nothing to suspend, but didn't seem to have anything else, either. He had like 8-9 cards in hand at some points, and none of it was suspend action, and none of it was interaction, so... was it all lands? Or... ? What was in his hand?!

Yeah, agreed. He had a Rhystic Study in play and semi-active, how did he draw absolutely nothing worth suspending? Either he was super mana flooded and had a grip full of lands, or he drew all of his control and nothing solid worth actually suspending. Here's the decklist, and honestly looking at it while there's some bombs here, it really looks like he's very light on spells worth suspending. So much countermagic, so little else, and that seems really counterintuitive for a Jhoira deck. You'd probably wanna dominate the table with as many nasties as you can rather than play draw-go. You're already on your own clock, be proactive.

Honestly, I was a little bummed no one chose my boi Dralnu, Lich Lord, but what JLK was playing would've suited Dralnu much better than it suited Jhoira. Swap out the burn for some reanimation and control and you're golden.

[Sinis]

Yeah, agreed. He had a Rhystic Study in play and semi-active, how did he draw absolutely nothing worth suspending? Either he was super mana flooded and had a grip full of lands, or he drew all of his control and nothing solid worth actually suspending. Here's the decklist, and honestly looking at it while there's some bombs here, it really looks like he's very light on spells worth suspending. So much countermagic, so little else, and that seems really counterintuitive for a Jhoira deck. You'd probably wanna dominate the table with as many nasties as you can rather than play draw-go. You're already on your own clock, be proactive.

I mean, that was it; he clearly didn't have countermagic, because he didn't stop Cassius from comboing off. His deck is so light on lands (34?!) that bricking that many draws is nothing short of impressive.

[toctheyounger]

Yeah, agreed. He had a Rhystic Study in play and semi-active, how did he draw absolutely nothing worth suspending? Either he was super mana flooded and had a grip full of lands, or he drew all of his control and nothing solid worth actually suspending. Here's the decklist, and honestly looking at it while there's some bombs here, it really looks like he's very light on spells worth suspending. So much countermagic, so little else, and that seems really counterintuitive for a Jhoira deck. You'd probably wanna dominate the table with as many nasties as you can rather than play draw-go. You're already on your own clock, be proactive.

I mean, that was it; he clearly didn't have countermagic, because he didn't stop Cassius from comboing off. His deck is so light on lands (34?!) that bricking that many draws is nothing short of impressive.

Oh yeah I more meant the list as built. A Jhoira build should have some counters, sure, but it should've had way more bombs than it did. Otherwise what's the point, you're just playing her for the colours. . We can't know for sure what was in his hand but it's safe to assume it wasn't countermagic predominantly.

[DirkGently]

Their budget definitely helps their decks to be more forgiving, and when you don't have that sort of budget you just have to be more lean, mean and critical of what you add.

I find the budget choice to be a strange one, and one that I think shows that at least as far as GK is concerned, they're about performance and not reality. I'm in the small minority that actually has duals and whatnot to play, but what is gained by showing plays with these expensive cards that the vast majority of players won't be able to afford? I think it's mostly for the spectacle and the clout. "look how pro we are that we play with these expensive cards," basically. It's not designed to be emulatable any more than pro wrestling is.

This kind of blew me away. Not just that he had nothing to suspend, but didn't seem to have anything else, either. He had like 8-9 cards in hand at some points, and none of it was suspend action, and none of it was interaction, so... was it all lands? Or... ? What was in his hand?!

Yeah, agreed. He had a Rhystic Study in play and semi-active, how did he draw absolutely nothing worth suspending? Either he was super mana flooded and had a grip full of lands, or he drew all of his control and nothing solid worth actually suspending. Here's the decklist, and honestly looking at it while there's some bombs here, it really looks like he's very light on spells worth suspending. So much countermagic, so little else, and that seems really counterintuitive for a Jhoira deck. You'd probably wanna dominate the table with as many nasties as you can rather than play draw-go. You're already on your own clock, be proactive.

Looking at his list, I only see 10 realistic targets for Jhoira, and a couple of them aren't even that good (Aeon Chronicler for example). To me, this shows 1 thing for sure, and 1 thing speculatively.

For sure I think Jhoira was a bad choice and I think JLK realized it at some point. A good Jhoira list would have run some mass removal (jokulhaups etc), or at least a ton of massive annihilator bombs to close out of the game early. Buuuut closing out the game early = bad game = bad show. So he dialed it way back to avoid that situation when he should have just played something else.

Speculatively, I think it tells me that their guests give them their decklists in advance. He saw Cassius' list and realized "oh f, he's playing a cEDH deck (or at least borderline) - I'm going to have to do something to save this show from being a disaster" so he packed his deck full of answers in the hopes of balancing out the game, even though it made no sense for Jhoira. Shoulda gone Phelddagrif my dude! (ik ik, he's not in time spiral, shush).

Very speculatively, I wonder if Cassius actually was recommended to play a different deck, but didn't because he's trying to get his own game store off the ground wanted to show how "badass" he is by crushing the GK guys. Now, only a scrub would see that game as a legitimate crushing - I don't even think it was well played, in particular when he countered the enchantment removal and got rightfully wrecked for it - but most commander players are scrubs so I bet some people watched that and thought "wow, Cassius sure is great at commander, I guess I'll check out his store!" But as I've said, this is very speculative.

[Dragoon]

Ultimately I think they should do what you've come up with - film a few games and pick the best to scrub up for production. I can't actually see that it'd be any more work. All of the post-production talking heads are surely done after the fact, as well as the graphics and stuff. I'm sure it'd be a lot more consistent.

I'm not so sure about the "any more work" part. They probably need to reiterate some passages during the game to be sure that the cards are always visible, that everybody speaks in an intelligible way and so on. Just look at actual movies and how many takes they need even for a short scene. Many things can go wrong when recording, and if I remember what they said in one of their episodes, they only have one day for the shooting (including all the little commentary scenes). Now that is certainly a production choice: favouring the quality of the production over the quality of the actual game.

[toctheyounger]

Looking at his list, I only see 10 realistic targets for Jhoira, and a couple of them aren't even that good (Aeon Chronicler for example). To me, this shows 1 thing for sure, and 1 thing speculatively.

For sure I think Jhoira was a bad choice and I think JLK realized it at some point. A good Jhoira list would have run some mass removal (jokulhaups etc), or at least a ton of massive annihilator bombs to close out of the game early. Buuuut closing out the game early = bad game = bad show. So he dialed it way back to avoid that situation when he should have just played something else.

Speculatively, I think it tells me that their guests give them their decklists in advance. He saw Cassius' list and realized "oh f, he's playing a cEDH deck (or at least borderline) - I'm going to have to do something to save this show from being a disaster" so he packed his deck full of answers in the hopes of balancing out the game, even though it made no sense for Jhoira. Shoulda gone Phelddagrif my dude! (ik ik, he's not in time spiral, shush).

Very speculatively, I wonder if Cassius actually was recommended to play a different deck, but didn't because he's trying to get his own game store off the ground wanted to show how "badass" he is by crushing the GK guys. Now, only a scrub would see that game as a legitimate crushing - I don't even think it was well played, in particular when he countered the enchantment removal and got rightfully wrecked for it - but most commander players are scrubs so I bet some people watched that and thought "wow, Cassius sure is great at commander, I guess I'll check out his store!" But as I've said, this is very speculative.

Shoulda gone Dralnu, Lich Lord tbh. Not the best matchup with Kaervek the Merciless in the mix, but there's plenty of ways around that, and he's super efficient for control and permission. People are way too scared of his first ability.

I think it's a pretty reasonable assumption that the guests decks are submitted prior to filming, so he probably should've known better than to play Jhoira. She's a notoriously feelbad commander anyway, he should've played someone else. Either that or he could've taken her in a different direction than the usual MLD/big stompy/extra turns route. Instead, I think he made the worst decision and stuck with the same commander and adapted his list to mediate the table, and just turned his list into a complete non-starter.

I had the same thought about Cash, although from previous games he's no stranger to playing big ticket cards. They've even mentioned on their podcast in the last few months how much money he's dropped on packs over the pandemic months. So even if it's not 'oh he's a great player, I should use his store' (which is pretty specious reasoning anyway) it's at least a showcase that he's got access to some pretty high profile cards. And in that respect, mission accomplished, I'd say.

Ultimately I think they should do what you've come up with - film a few games and pick the best to scrub up for production. I can't actually see that it'd be any more work. All of the post-production talking heads are surely done after the fact, as well as the graphics and stuff. I'm sure it'd be a lot more consistent.

I'm not so sure about the "any more work" part. They probably need to reiterate some passages during the game to be sure that the cards are always visible, that everybody speaks in an intelligible way and so on. Just look at actual movies and how many takes they need even for a short scene. Many things can go wrong when recording, and if I remember what they said in one of their episodes, they only have one day for the shooting (including all the little commentary scenes). Now that is certainly a production choice: favouring the quality of the production over the quality of the actual game.

Yeah, that's probably a fair point. And you're right, the tradeoff is probably production quality over game quality - I'd say most of the time that's the right choice - if you all know each other well, chances are you're happy to play at the same level as the rest of the table. In this case and a few others from the series it's backfired, but I guess if you're on a schedule what can you do?

[JWK]

I just finished watching this episode (I had started a couple days ago, but something came up), and yeah, I'm really not impressed. Terrible play errors aside, Cassius playing a cEDH deck against a bunch of ordinary decks doesn't make for an engaging episode or an earned win. It's kind of like watching Michael Jordan play against a bunch of junior high kids, except Jordan isn't a bully and has too much class for that sort of thing. Apparently that is not true of Cassius. This sort of mismatch is not what should be happening at EDH tables, and I raise a middle finger to the CZ folk for presenting this as entertainment, as opposed to the bad behavior it actually is. cEDH folk in general disavow this sort of play as pubstomping and ultimately bad for both cEDH and EDH as a whole, but one of the most influential MtG broadcasts allows such behavior without comment, even ending with comments about what a fun game that was, which equates to approval of such behavior. Bad choice, CZ.

[kraus911]

I just finished watching this episode (I had started a couple days ago, but something came up), and yeah, I'm really not impressed. Terrible play errors aside, Cassius playing a cEDH deck against a bunch of ordinary decks doesn't make for an engaging episode or an earned win. It's kind of like watching Michael Jordan play against a bunch of junior high kids, except Jordan isn't a bully and has too much class for that sort of thing. Apparently that is not true of Cassius. This sort of mismatch is not what should be happening at EDH tables, and I raise a middle finger to the CZ folk for presenting this as entertainment, as opposed to the bad behavior it actually is. cEDH folk in general disavow this sort of play as pubstomping and ultimately bad for both cEDH and EDH as a whole, but one of the most influential MtG broadcasts allows such behavior without comment, even ending with comments about what a fun game that was, which equates to approval of such behavior. Bad choice, CZ.

Yes. Yes to all of this. And it's not fair to the cEDH community which is also interested in balanced games because if your fun is thrashing people who are unprepared for your deck than your idea of fun is not keyed into a social format.

I think what stands out most is the mixed messaging of the show. They want to demonstrate the format as a fun balanced community game to play that most people can find a budget access to, and their podcasts lean in this direction, but then they play blinged out and mismatched decks and, as you say, talk about what a fun game it was. No, be real, say it was a crappy game and why so other people can learn from it.

I really enjoy mtgmuddstah's channel, the varied decks and gameplay, and his style of keeping the formatting and commentary simple and straightforward. If someone asked me what to watch on youtube to learn how to play Commander I'd point to that long before GK.

[Ertai Planeswalker]

In all fairness though, I watched all the Game Knights episodes so far and this was the first that was really just not fun to watch. But it did showcase properly why cards like Narset, Parter of Veils and Hullbreacher are just not fun and hopefully will not be made anymore. Preventing your opponents to play the game is just not fun. And yeah, there are groups that are ok with it and that's fine, to each our own. But in general people want to actually play their cards. It also makes for the most fun GK episodes where every deck can demonstrate what it wants to do and gets it's momentum at some point. Same reason why that recent Extra Turns episode with the Zada player wasn't that much fun: you play a game and at some point someone goes "Oops i win". This can be at least somewhat fun in real life every now and then but it does not make for a fun episode to watch.

I hope they will pay more attention to this in the future. And maybe they should even use a banlist of their own, where Narset, Parter of Veils , Hullbreacher and Opposition Agent can be put on together with stuff like Winter Orb etc. The Christmas Special with Craig's decks showcased perfectly how you can play high powered commander but still have fun doing AND which is fun to watch.

[toctheyounger]

I think what stands out most is the mixed messaging of the show. They want to demonstrate the format as a fun balanced community game to play that most people can find a budget access to, and their podcasts lean in this direction, but then they play blinged out and mismatched decks and, as you say, talk about what a fun game it was. No, be real, say it was a crappy game and why so other people can learn from it.

I actually don't think this is the first time this has happened. Someone linked a prior episode which is pretty awful watching too, and lo and behold it's 'the crushing weight of extra turns incarnate' that wins. I mentioned the episodes where JLK plays Athreos, God of Passage/Shadowborn Apostle as well as the Guilds of Ravnica episode where he plays Emmara, Soul of the Accord. I'll grant for the latter that no one could really see how many niche cards would make that such a strong build, but it's still unpleasant to see such a dominant game, he just has answers for everything and nothing anyone does has enough momentum to even slow him down, let alone stop him. Then there's games where a guest comes on and just mana screws. It's happened fairly regularly - happened to Olivia Gobert-Hicks, MtgNerdgirl, Rachel Weeks, and Jimmy like every game (honestly, what decks does he even build?), probably others too.

I just find it a really weird mix where GK sits for house rules. They use the upper echelon of valuable cards but still eschew combo, stax and MLD, and instead of clear communication around expectations you get these awkward moments on video where you can see the tension in the room and frustration on faces, but no one wants to actually say anything (except for that one time Mel Li called Craig out for running Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger, which they still refer to, and it seems a little unfair to me to keep doing so - it is a jerk card for jerks). On top of all of that, I think in general their threat assessment tends to run way off - or they identify a threat, and then no one does a thing about it. This last episode you could see how pissed JLK was and I can't rightly blame him. They could've had Cash under wraps nicely, but no one wanted to take care of business.

Honestly, it's just not a good representation of how you manage a meta - you've got a pseudo arms-race, unwritten rules and unclear lines of communication. Threat assessment is subjective and variable, so you can't call them out for that, but damn are they way off sometimes. Like that last game with Cobra Kai dude archenemying, Jimmy at one point is allowed to activate Magda, Brazen Outlaw and looks for an option to reduce the number of copies of Koma, Cosmos Serpent in play, and skips right past Duplicant. Like, sure it's not perfect for a commander but it'll do for Sakashima of a Thousand Faces and there's nothing the guy could've done to stop it. How do you miss that and why do you even run the card? Especially when they've literally targeted the card for being outdated in recent podcasts it just seems like they either don't really believe what they say, or they just miss these lines. This is all a completely tangential complaint, but other content creators don't miss this stuff. Mitch from Commander's Quarters, MtgMuddstah, the Spike Feeders and so on. PleasantKenobi has ups and downs as do One More Mana, but you're mostly there for the personalities with those ones.

I just get really conflicted with GK. I love the production value, but the quality of gameplay is really erratic and I find it very frustrating.

[Sinis]

I just get really conflicted with GK. I love the production value, but the quality of gameplay is really erratic and I find it very frustrating.

On the one hand, I agree, but on the other, I remember the M21 episode and I can't even remember how many times I had to watch their Subira, Tulzidi Caravanner animation.

[Rumpy5897]

I like Extra Turns better, if I'm being honest. The pacing is snappier, yet there's still some space for table chemistry.

There's now one of those post-mortem discussion episodes about that GK. I tried watching one of those once and found the never-ending barrage of trivial nonsense in the covered comments extremely off-putting. And this one's over an hour long. I'd be curious to find out if someone called them out on this power imbalance, but at the same time I'm not sure I'm up to the task of sitting through that thing to find out.

[toctheyounger]

I just get really conflicted with GK. I love the production value, but the quality of gameplay is really erratic and I find it very frustrating.

On the one hand, I agree, but on the other, I remember the M21 episode and I can't even remember how many times I had to watch their Subira, Tulzidi Caravanner animation.

Oh yeah the graphic work is gorgeous, I just think the gameplay in general is not as excellent as it ought to be. Especially for the pedestal the show is held on by a lot of the community.

I like Extra Turns better, if I'm being honest. The pacing is snappier, yet there's still some space for table chemistry.

There's now one of those post-mortem discussion episodes about that GK. I tried watching one of those once and found the never-ending barrage of trivial nonsense in the covered comments extremely off-putting. And this one's over an hour long. I'd be curious to find out if someone called them out on this power imbalance, but at the same time I'm not sure I'm up to the task of sitting through that thing to find out.

I agree, ET is better - although a lot of the episodes do suffer from the same disjointed momentum and either end up being archenemy duke outs or pubstomps. Nonetheless, without the constant banter explaining what's going on and such it paces a bit better for someone who doesn't need their hand held through the rules in a televised EDH game.

I'll dig into it on the way home tonight and report back. Most of it is cutesy banter from fans wanting to have their voices heard, so I should be able to skip through most of it.

[knight_seb]

It is my first time watching a full episode of GameKnights. Then I checked their decklists.I still don't understand why they play so few lands : I can't bring myself to play less than 38 lands in my decks (except my mono white kemba which plays 37).
I agree with folks about the power level of the decks in this game. Tasigur is way ahead of the others in term of raw power and synergy. And when I heard Jimmy saying they are bringing the big guns, I was surprised to see their respective commanders and how the game goes. Some plays were odd and JLK looks like he didn't have any luck with the draw.

Despite that, I liked it and I will check more often their videos. Sometimes, it's better to end quickly an unfun game to play another hoping it will goes better.

[Rumpy5897]

I actually sat through the round table. The only bit of newbie rules "lawyering" was a section on the CMC of X spells, most of the run time was taken up by the gang commenting on their various punts. Loads of "it made sense in the moment", "even pros on the pro tour make mistakes", that sort of stuff.

They did touch on power level. A summary:

• While others picked their legends to try to challenge themselves in deck building somehow, Cassius just openly went for the strongest available option. The others were notified of that, and of his list, and were invited to power up.
• Telling Cassius to power down was not really an option, as the "high average card quality" build was very on brand for him and it just wouldn't be the same to ask him to change it. Josh was originally going to play Mangara of Corondor, but decided to switch to Jhoira to balance the table out a bit.
• The players themselves don't feel there was a particularly heavy power discrepancy, everybody was aware of what Cassius was bringing and willingly walked into that. The Jhoira deck was justly identified as the second best in the pod, with the potential to blast out an Eldrazi or something of similar impact on turn four.
• The way the game shook out was also used as evidence that it was fine. Jimmy's Underworld Breach turn was singled out as a moment where he was very close to winning, which is why Josh went in for the stack war to try to stop him. Things could have gone a lot differently had he not punted and given Cassius the completely unnecessary treasure that allowed him to Flusterstorm. Josh also thought he had a good shot at the game.

Jimmy expressed the opinion that Narset, Parter of Veils plus Timetwister is very powerful, but not leagues above the rest. This is pretty much the only thing they say that I openly disagree with, as wheel plus draw stuffer is a move powerful enough to spawn the cEDH Opus Thief deck.

[pokken]

Jimmy expressed the opinion that Narset, Parter of Veils plus Timetwister is very powerful, but not leagues above the rest. This is pretty much the only thing they say that I openly disagree with, as wheel plus draw stuffer is a move powerful enough to spawn the cEDH Opus Thief deck.

Yeah, the whole "kill this planeswalker at instant speed or counter a spell" is pretty typical of CEDH level of interactivity required, which I don't think we should play in more casual metas. Not quite as harsh as Thassa's Oracle "counter this spell or triggered ability or lose" but close enough.

[JWK]

I actually sat through the round table. <snip summary>

Thanks for the summary. I think I can safely skip that one.

[Maluko]

It is my first time watching a full episode of GameKnights. Then I checked their decklists.I still don't understand why they play so few lands : I can't bring myself to play less than 38 lands in my decks (except my mono white kemba which plays 37).

They are the same people that actively tell players to run 10+ mana ramp cards in their decks, a stance that I totally oppose. That's probably the reason why their decks run so few lands.

[DirkGently]

Something I pulled from the round table because I think it proves my point - When asked "why did you cast the enchantment before Kaervek?" Ashlen says she didn't want to lose it the wheel she assumed was coming because JLK warned them - bad reasoning since, if Kaervek got rid of Narset, it's very unlikely that he'd wheel with ~5 cards in hand...but at least there was some reasoning. Whereas when Jimmy was asked why he maxed out the X instead of leaving up mana for enchantment removal he might hit (or even just other spells, so he's not limited to a single turn to play 10 flippin' cards), he basically just shrugged. Clearly taking the game very seriously.

I find JLK's whining about the treasure token to be tedious. You're not even talking about "well, I would have won if..." or even "we would have seriously set him back if..." We're talking about saving one turn. Treasure or no, y'all were probably screwed.

I think their response to the power level thing mostly betrays a lack of understanding of power levels. They blow it off as "well, a REAL cEDH would win on turn 2" (which, while possible ofc, is pretty rare to my understanding) - and also neglect the part where Cassius did almost win on turn 4 or so with the Narset play. Granted, his deck COULD have been more powerful, but it was pretty damn close to cEDH. And JLK says "well, he didn't even tutor until the end"...as though not hitting one of a handful of tutors is any less likely than JLK not hitting any suspend bombs. Do we really think Cassius didn't have a dtutor and vtutor in there? He almost certainly just didn't draw them. (EDIT: I'm dumb and forgot I could just check the decklist. Yep! 8 tutors! including all the best ones, vamp, demo, seal, intuition. Oh, but he didn't draw them so it can't possibly be cEDH! cEDH decks could never lowroll, they always live in magical christmas land! GTFO of here.)

I find the "playing overpowered stuff is just his THING" to be a little infuriating. It's tantamount to saying "Ignoring the social contract is just one of his quirks! We can't ask him to change!" I don't have a problem with playing high powered cards individually, but basically none of what he had in that deck was remotely fun. Especially when you're trying to make, y'know, a show, you really need to take more responsibility for the quality of the game and take some control over what people are allowed to play.

Also I really really hate it when people equate building high-powered decks with actual skill. Real men win with precons...and only because their chairs tribal is in the shop.