Kirkusjones presents: DirkGently's polite debate corner aka the Thunderdome

[DirkGently]

@Avacyn Believer Those commanders occupy that flatter power level I described - reasonably strong for voltron but with a lower ceiling than many other strategies. Realistically I think those sorts of things pretty much cap out at a low 8 regardless of which cards you have access to or how cutthroat you're willing to build/play. That's certainly good enough to be an option for casual tables but not strong enough to be concerning at face value.

Light-paws and Slicer I would be concerned if I saw them at a table under most circumstances. Slicer can kill the table consistently by turn 3 or so, if left uninterrupted. Light paws is slower since he doesn't get multiple attacks per turn cycle, but he's harder to disrupt. Because of their mechanics games will usually be pretty similar. I wouldn't expect a pleasant game from either - it's pretty much "keep killing that until it stops coming back" unless you're doing something even more degenerate.

[Avacyn Believer]

pretty much cap out at a low 8

Gonna be honest, I think low 8 is a pretty good level where I would expect games to fun without worrying about turn 3 wins.

[TheGildedGoose]

Not really a point for debate, but I am curious in light of the recent conversation about whether or not Dirk considers his Phelddagrif list Voltron. Certainly, there's no suiting up, but it does structurally rely on the same model of attacking with your commander until everyone is dead. Controltron?

[TheAmericanSpirit]

Not really a point for debate, but I am curious in light of the recent conversation about whether or not Dirk considers his Phelddagrif list Voltron. Certainly, there's no suiting up, but it does structurally rely on the same model of attacking with your commander until everyone is dead. Controltron?

I feel like voltron as an archetype necessarily has some assembly required. The Grif uses commander damage as a wincon just like voltron, but the lack of augmentation would exclude it from Voltron imo.

Edit: Do you consider your Slogurk list a voltron deck? The overslime grows on its own, so perhaps I am wrong if so.

[DirkGently]

Gonna be honest, I think low 8 is a pretty good level where I would expect games to fun without worrying about turn 3 wins.

Well that was kind of my point in the article - the question on the table was whether Anzrag merited an "ugly", and I don't think he does on the basis that voltron is generally limited to being fair because of its predictability and weakness to interaction, even for strong voltron commanders. Or stated more flippantly, because "voltron sucks".

Not really a point for debate, but I am curious in light of the recent conversation about whether or not Dirk considers his Phelddagrif list Voltron. Certainly, there's no suiting up, but it does structurally rely on the same model of attacking with your commander until everyone is dead. Controltron?

We tend to assign a single archetype to most decks, but of course reality is a lot more nuanced and most decks have various things going on to different degrees. In phelddagrif's case, beating down with an unkillable commander is part of the total equation of the deck, but the control and political elements are way more key to understanding the strategy being employed.

That, and I do agree with @TheAmericanSpirit that assembly is part of the typical "voltron" definition. I'm not familiar with the cartoon, but isn't the gimmick that a bunch of components come together to form a single powerful entity, a la equipments/auras joining together to create a single unstoppable commander?

[Avacyn Believer]

Just to chip in, I define Voltron as "defeating your opponents with commander damage". I do believe the term comes from what DirkGently describes, that cartoon where smaller robots make a bigger robot, but to me it still comes down to eliminating opponents with commander damage.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

Just to chip in, I define Voltron as "defeating your opponents with commander damage". I do believe the term comes from what DirkGently describes, that cartoon where smaller robots make a bigger robot, but to me it still comes down to eliminating opponents with commander damage.

I understand your viewpoint, but I think it's a disservice to the archetype to define it so broadly. Players lose to incidental commander damage all the time without the decks doing it necessarily being voltron. Example: I once killed a player during an especially hideous grindfest of a game with 7 whacks from Henzie "Toolbox" Torre. It wasn't how I wanted to win, it's not how I intended to win through deck construction, but that's how things shook out. Plus almost every deck can do it, so the potential for a commander damage kill alone can't reasonably qualify as Voltron.

Furthermore, when talking about Phelddagrif specifically, the primary weapons employed to kill a table aren't in the deck, they're sitting at the table with you. Ideally you use politics to get them to kill each other first, and then and only then do you unleash the hell of an unkillable flampling hippo to finish off the other survivor. Voltron (in my experience) is fundamentally aggressive in that they want to start attacking and keep attacking to minimize the time for their opponents to draw an appropriate answer to their threat. Phelddagrif and other control drcks that win in part through commander damage (e.g. Chromium, the Mutable) are not interested in trying to race to the finish in the same way that voltron decks typically do.

More broadly, even if the deck is aggressive and has "suit up" potential, even that may not be true voltron. For example, my old raffine list had a pretty solid play pattern: Play goons, go wide to get tall, and swing. But what made the deck so damn efficient was that you could usually divide your force into two groups, Raffine and everyone else, and take out two players at once while leaving your easiest prey for later. Raffine grew fast enough to commander kill player A over an average of three triggers and player B got run over by the squad like normal. Even with that being a core strategy of the deck, I would not classify it a voltron deck more than go-wide aggro, because you can still run them over without Raffine and the bulk of the deck is small attacking creatures.

Voltron is all about the assembly imho. You suit up and you beat down in hot pursuit of a glorious combat victory. Going tall with draft bombs or assembling a weenie horde are different flavors of aggro entirely. Grinding someone out with an unkillable control wincon from the CZ is just classic control adapted to edh. After all, why waste a slot on a wincon when you can play more removal instead? 🤣

[Avacyn Believer]

That's fair, my definition is too broad. The intent behind the deck building and playing sure makes a difference. I'd say I came to think of it this way is because when I discovered Voltron I'd done the classic Auras and Equipment, and over the years kept thinking how can I change it up, and find different ways to boost the commander's damage and play the deck with intent to eliminate opponents via commander damage. Like, how can I make Voltron with Aristocrats, and so on. I've been doing it for so long now that when I think Voltron, I think how can I make the commander do lethal damage.

[TheGildedGoose]

Edit: Do you consider your Slogurk list a voltron deck? The overslime grows on its own, so perhaps I am wrong if so.

It's complicated. It wins via commander damage and the rest of the deck supports that strategy, albeit glacially, but there are no equipments or auras since The 'Gurk grows all by itself. The deck isn't trying to go aggro, but it can in a pinch if needed.

We tend to assign a single archetype to most decks, but of course reality is a lot more nuanced and most decks have various things going on to different degrees. In phelddagrif's case, beating down with an unkillable commander is part of the total equation of the deck, but the control and political elements are way more key to understanding the strategy being employed.

That, and I do agree with @TheAmericanSpirit that assembly is part of the typical "voltron" definition. I'm not familiar with the cartoon, but isn't the gimmick that a bunch of components come together to form a single powerful entity, a la equipments/auras joining together to create a single unstoppable commander?

Sure, that's the origin of the term Voltron, but things change over time. Eidolon of Rhetoric ain't no bear. I guess my point is, although Phelddy and Gurk don't have any equipment the rest of the deck is directly supporting a win via commander damage. Rafiq and many other Voltron decks are aggressive and want to win quickly, but I do think it's entirely possible to build Voltron decks that focus on inevitability.

I do agree that in EDH strict archetypal definitions tend to break down, so a lot of this is just semantics. The difference between strategy and tactics, I guess.

[DirkGently]

Sure, that's the origin of the term Voltron, but things change over time. Eidolon of Rhetoric ain't no bear. I guess my point is, although Phelddy and Gurk don't have any equipment the rest of the deck is directly supporting a win via commander damage. Rafiq and many other Voltron decks are aggressive and want to win quickly, but I do think it's entirely possible to build Voltron decks that focus on inevitability.

I don't really think they're comparable. Slogurk dictates a fair number of card slots in order to be effective, and not solely land slots either. So I think it's fair to say that a decent chunk of the deck "is directly supporting a win via commander damage". Phelddagrif though, I think that's a stretch. There's no mechanical interaction between Phelddagrif and basically anything in the deck. You could modify the deck to win via natural mill pretty easily I think (though it probably wouldn't be very fun).

Even Phelddagrif itself is only partly used as a direct wincon. His political utility is the reason he was chosen to helm the deck - the fact that he's unkillable, evasive, and has decent power is mostly just a nice bonus. For that matter, while the deck does win by killing the final opponent with Phelddagrif, the primary means of killing people is to use your mutual opponents to bring them down by massaging the game politically to incentivize this process. For that reason I'd say that political manipulation is the primary wincon, even if it's not the final wincon.

I do agree that in EDH strict archetypal definitions tend to break down, so a lot of this is just semantics.

Whether voltron includes commanders who don't use equipment/auras, or who don't use any means to buff themselves at all, is considered "voltron" is definitely semantic. Personally I think Voltron is a subset of the broader classification of "decks that prefer to win via commander damage" which requires a significant number of card slots dedicated to making your commander more effective in combat - but that's purely arbitrary.

[Dragonlover]

Yeah to me Voltron is definitely 'I have to put several auras/equipment onto my Commander to get the damage through'. For example, I don't count Molimo as a Voltron commander, he's just real big in and of himself.

Dragonlover

[Avacyn Believer]

Personally I think Voltron is a subset of the broader classification of "decks that prefer to win via commander damage" which requires a significant number of card slots dedicated to making your commander more effective in combat

As a thought experiment, what could we call these decks? I agree with the rest of you that Voltron is Aura & Equipment, but calling decks that win via Commander Damage aggro also feels too broad, and now I feel like there is a term missing to describe these decks.

[Mookie]

As a thought experiment, what could we call these decks? I agree with the rest of you that Voltron is Aura & Equipment, but calling decks that win via Commander Damage aggro also feels too broad, and now I feel like there is a term missing to describe these decks.

IMO, voltron decks have a lot in common with infect decks. Play a threat that is particularly effective at dealing damage, pump it up and protect it, and eventually deal enough damage to kill your opponent before they stabilize. That feels like either an aggro or tempo strategy, depending on the exact mechanics - aggro usually just wants to power through, while tempo tends to be more disruptive. Both of those strategies are also different from a control deck that uses its commander to close out a game after opponents are out of gas.

[duducrash]

I think there are several control decks that will control the board and win via commander damage. They don't have to gear up the commander, so I don't think its voltron itself

[onering]

Decks that win via commander damage isn't really an archetype itself, just like decks that win via attacking isn't an archetype, or decks that win via a combo isn't an archetype. Those are all just win conditions. The archetype is the whole deck and how it's built.

Voltron is all in on commander damage and forcing it through quickly, while being hard to answer, just like a combo deck is actually focused on getting the combo out quickly and consistently. Including Kiki-Jiki and Perstermite in a deck and having it come together when you happen to draw into it doesn't make it a combo deck, it makes it a deck with a combo. If you build the deck to grab the combo and protect it as your main strategy, with the construction of the deck warped around hitting it consistently, then it's a combo deck. If you build the deck to control the game and eventually draw into the combo or hit people with some other win con like your commander (whichever comes first) it's a control deck.

Dirk's hippo is a control deck, particularly a political control deck because he stretches his control suite by using the hippo to make deals so he doesn't have to answer everything with cards. It wins by preventing other people from winning, and he happens to use his commander as a primary finisher because it's resilient and he doesn't like combos.

[Avacyn Believer]

Voltron is all in on commander damage and forcing it through quickly, while being hard to answer,

That is how I been describing it as well but others made a good point about how Voltron specifically describes commander's with Aura and Equipment at the main strategy.

[onering]

Voltron is all in on commander damage and forcing it through quickly, while being hard to answer,

That is how I been describing it as well but others made a good point about how Voltron specifically describes commander's with Aura and Equipment at the main strategy.

Yeah, I'm kind of a middle position between yours and their argument. I can look at something like Atarka, World Render and see a deck headed by it that focuses on ramping out Atarka ASAP and protecting it as Voltron. She kills in two swings with no support, and needs only minimal support to be faster. A mere handful of equipments or auras, or even global enchantments, can push her over the top. The all in aspect here comes from racing her out and protecting her. Because she's so threatening without anything strapped to her, the ramp and instant speed protection (and burn to remove blockers) take on the role that equipment and auras normally do in Voltron. And exalted deck (or a deck using the Samurai exalted mechanic from NEO), would also qualify. A deck headed by Atarka that plays Stax instead and then drops her once people are locked out wouldn't be Voltron.

[FoxHybrid]

Voltron is all in on commander damage and forcing it through quickly, while being hard to answer,

That is how I been describing it as well but others made a good point about how Voltron specifically describes commander's with Aura and Equipment at the main strategy.

Yeah, I'm kind of a middle position between yours and their argument. I can look at something like Atarka, World Render and see a deck headed by it that focuses on ramping out Atarka ASAP and protecting it as Voltron.

I agree that the definitions of Voltron vs. a deck that wins through its commander most likely falls somewhere around those two arguments but I do have some issues with those two arguments, mainly due to the parts I put in bold being too specific.

My problem with @onering's focus on how quickly a Voltron deck has to win quickly is that it ignores a whole part of the gameplay of Voltron decks, finding the right time to execute your gameplan. While for a lot of the uber-aggressive Voltron decks slamming your commander down as soon as possible is the gameplan, there are also tempo-based Voltron decks that will take their time and find that rebuilding period after a board wipe to jam their commander and start being a threat. There also even slower Voltron decks that may wait until everyone else is almost completely out of gas to set their plan in motion, although these seem to be very rare and sometimes can toe the line between being a Voltron deck at all.

So, Voltron decks don't need to necessarily win quickly, then what is my problem with saying that stacking auras and equipment on your commander is what defines a Voltron deck? Obviously, that's why the archetype was named what it was, however, I think just focusing on auras and equipment is severely limiting our definition of Voltron decks and excludes a few very notable Voltron decks, such as Feather, the Redeemed. Therefore, I feel like instead of limiting Voltron decks to just decks that focus on auras and equipment, a Voltron deck should be qualified as a deck that focuses on modifying its commander in order to win via commander damage.

So, now that I've established that I think of Voltron decks as decks that use purposely augmented commanders to win with commander damage, how do I think we should describe decks that aren't Voltron but still kill with commander damage the majority of the time? Well, I agree with statements that @onering and @TheAmericanSpirit have previously made in this thread that while non-Voltron decks can use commander damage as a win condition, it's just that, a win condition, and not the strategy of the deck.

TLDR; I think Voltron decks aren't described by speed or killing via commander damage or a focus on auras and equipment, but rather the fact that the deck focuses on augmenting its commander to kill with commander damage.

[Mookie]

TLDR; I think Voltron decks aren't described by speed or killing via commander damage or a focus on auras and equipment, but rather the fact that the deck focuses on augmenting its commander to kill with commander damage.

Yeah, I think this is an accurate assessment. Strategy and win conditions are different things - some control decks win with Nephalia Drownyard, and some combo decks win with Painter's Servant + Grindstone, but that doesn't mean I would classify them as 'mill decks'. Similarly, just because a deck wins by attacking with its commander doesn't automatically classify it as a voltron deck. I think it's reasonable to say that a deck doesn't qualify as voltron unless it is investing additional resources into buffing its commander.

[DirkGently]

I will say, I have seen a Giant tribal Ruhan deck once that looked like a lot of fun. And he is the right colors for it. So while not as popular as Hinata, Dawn-Crowned, I do think he is a fun, if a bit niche commander, which is better than fine. It's the type of commander that the format is all about. It rotting away in a trade binder is not a concern. Let the other cards around it be the staples and money. Sheldon, the Commander should be the commander that spoke to him the most.

Ruhan is used for giant tribal purely because it's the only legendary giant in that CI. He's bad enough that plenty of non-giants would almost certainly be superior options, but tribal players gonna tribal so the commander needs to have the same tag. But the nanosecond any other decent legendary giant gets printed in Jeskai - let alone one with an actual tribal payoff - everyone who played Ruhan for giant tribal is dropping him like a hot potato.

All he does is attack, and he even denies you the ability to interact with one of the most compelling parts of multiplayer magic - threat assessment. I'm sorry but I cannot consider that "fun", and it's barely even "niche" because he doesn't support any niches outside of having a particular creature type. None of that, in my opinion, constitutes "what the format is about".

Shu Yun is "fun and niche", Sevinne is "fun and niche", Zedruu is "fun and niche". Ruhan is boring and aimless.

If that's the commander that spoke to Sheldon, well, it is what it is. No accounting for taste. But I'm just saying, it would be nice if people had the option to build decks in tribute to him without the commander being a millstone around the deck's neck.

Look I don't want to throw stones (though I kind of do), but I find it funny when you're main Commander is Phelddagrif, one of the most unfun and miserable commanders to play against that actively promotes an unfun playstyle (and a certain amount of griefing), that you are complaining that Ruhan of the Fomori is boring and aimless. (And before you get into it, yes, I understand your Phelddagrif deck is different than a kingmaker or group hug deck, but I have never played against the Purple Hippo of Grief when it wasn't leading some sort of kingmaker or group hug deck that just wanted to make the game as miserable as possible). I could see myself enjoying Ruhan a lot as a person who enjoys Giants, Overstated Creatures, Strange Restrictions on Creatures, and Chaos.

Every commander is someone's favorite or least favorite. I love Etali in all her forms. I hate any commanders that are meant just for uninteractive combos. I have people at my LGS who believe in the exact opposite of that. And I would much rather people be encouraged play a fair commander like Ruhan of the Fomori who supports interactive gameplay than something like Derevi, Empyrial Tactician, Animar, Soul of Elements, or Gaddock Teeg.

Well, if you're looking to throw stones, I'd say the Thunderdome is probably the best place to do it

Of course most people who build Phelddagrif build it as group hug (can't say that I've seen anyone intentionally build a deck to kingmake though I guess it probably happens somewhere). I do think it's unfair to say that group hug Phelddagrif players "want to make the game as miserable as possible" - I think the vast majority misguidedly believe that people will enjoy the hugginess (which, tbf, some people actually do). But regardless of how people build it, or how I build it, the card does have abilities that do something. People can look at it and think of different ways to exploit it. It might not be your cup of tea, but it's complex and impactful enough that it can't be too boring. And people have found ways to use its abilities to further their plan, so it's not aimless.

Properly boring commanders are actually pretty rare. Honestly looking through the jeskai commander options, Ruhan is the most boring and it's not even close. The next closest are probably Numot, the Devastator and Immard, the Stormcleaver, and those are still miles ahead of Ruhan.

The problem with Ruhan is that he's just...nothing. He does nothing, he supports nothing. Of course people CAN build plenty of things with him - giant tribal, voltron, Sheldon's reflect damage build - but he doesn't mechanically support those things to any meaningful degree (arguably voltron, though honestly I think a vanilla 4/4 for 4 without the random attack text would be significantly better at supporting that archetype).

Now, I do agree that there are many, many commanders I would be more unhappy to see someone play than Ruhan. But at least those commanders, including the obnoxious commanders you listed, do have fans (well, derevi and animar do, teeg seems to be in a bit of a slump - your list seems kinda out of date tbh, those commanders had their heyday a decade ago). And there are things you can do with them - Derevi can helm obnoxious stax decks, but could also do a tap-trigger deck like Hylda of the Icy Crown, use Derevi for sac fodder, voltron...you've got options, is my point. Derevi can be obnoxious but he could also be built in an interesting way. Ruhan doesn't really have options. He does one thing, and it's not very interesting, and he doesn't even do it well.

If the goal was to pick the least interesting commander to build, Ruhan is pretty close to the perfect choice imo. To get much worse you'd probably be talking, like, homelands legends.

[Dragonlover]

I just want to refute a point you made in the other thread: I had a Ruhan deck back on Salvation based around forced combats. It was built for the precise goal of getting my playgroup to get used to attacking, and when our local meta as a larger group had one of those collective level ups that occasionally happens, I abandoned it as it had served its purpose but couldn't play in the new power level.

Dragonlover

[DirkGently]

@Dragonlover Not sure which point you're referring to, but if you're the one playing the deck, why not just play a different commander and just choose to attack? Or were you loaning it out?

Either way, I'd think Fumiko the Lowblood (or other options depending when we're talking about) would be much more effective at "getting people used to attacking".

[Avacyn Believer]

I can appreciate if Rohan was Sheldon's favourite commander, that feels like a fitting thing to do, but there was nothing stopping Wizards from printing more Legendary Creatures dedicated to Sheldon, so people could build bunch of different decks in tribute.

[Hermes_]

I can appreciate if Rohan was Sheldon's favourite commander, that feels like a fitting thing to do, but there was nothing stopping Wizards from printing more Legendary Creatures dedicated to Sheldon, so people could build bunch of different decks in tribute.

While i love the spellbook, I would have loved one of his decks as an SL more.

[Dragonlover]

@Dragonlover Not sure which point you're referring to, but if you're the one playing the deck, why not just play a different commander and just choose to attack? Or were you loaning it out?

Either way, I'd think Fumiko the Lowblood (or other options depending when we're talking about) would be much more effective at "getting people used to attacking".

It was the 'nobody finds it interesting enough to build' point. As to why Ruhan, it was what, 2014? Mono red sucked ass and I was occasionally guilty myself of the big durdle. Fumiko was in the deck though.

Dragonlover