Phelddagrif: Show Weakness to Hide Your Strength

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Kapusta
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Post by Kapusta » 3 years ago

Yep, epiphany is just alright...

And yes, that's what I should have meant. That section meant to be split detailing the synergies using utility deserts and the desert cyclers with loam.

And the exile strategy I guess is good. You did make some good points. I may not personally add that strategy to my deck yet but I definitely see the potential.

Now let's just see if jumpstart has anything good for us!

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 3 years ago

Unfortunately, jump start doesn't have anything we're looking for. Not terribly surprising, they were only printing cards to enable niche archetypes, "better removal" or "better draw engines" isn't exactly a niche role.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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Hawk
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Post by Hawk » 3 years ago

I've been musing as Commander Legends looms in the distance on what is the "top five things I want for (my wife's) Phelddagriff" deck. I think things that would be enormously, impossibly exciting are...

5) More effects like Beast Within, Generous Gift, and Rapid Hybridization - removal that is hyper-efficient or hyper-versatile and replaces threats with "useless" 3/3 tokens that can still cause mayhem to other enemies. This deck would probably replace its removal suite with 10 Swords to Plowshares and 10 Generous Gifts if it could.

4) Instant-speed regrowth effects? We did just get Fungal Rebirth but I want something scalable like Wildest Dreams but also instant speed. Picky picky I know. Rebirth also only hits permanents and we run so few non-land permanents (our build has slightly more than you with Soothsaying and Bounty of the Luxa but not a ton more). Dreams is amazing for sculpting a perfect end-game hand of your best wipes, counters, and point removal.

3) More split second cards. Crushing dreams with Krosan Grip is sweet, but a lot of the other split second effects in Bant are sort of blah. I would adore a split second kill spell.

2) Instant speed boardwipes. We have found that Rout and Cyclonic Rift are the best spells in the deck with Fated Retribution close behind. Like you said last page, "Cyclonic Rift for 3UU or 4UU but it isn't asymmetric" would be fire.

1) Official WotC-approved 1/1 Hippo tokens. PLS make happen WotC.

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lyonhaert
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Post by lyonhaert » 3 years ago

Hawk wrote:
3 years ago
1) Official WotC-approved 1/1 Hippo tokens. PLS make happen WotC.
I've become a fan of getting custom tokens.
Chainer bbb
"Image"
(rebuild after Geth)
Other
r Lathliss
bw Breena
To-Build Pool
rb Obosh Burn
gw Dromoka

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 3 years ago

I use rk posts hippo tokens - he's got a whole bunch of tokens to choose from.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

Liberi
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Post by Liberi » 3 years ago

I use these tokens, they're so cute: Hippo (check the others, there's the Bird for Swan Song and so on!)
I played a few games with Phelddagrif and i'm really in love with the deck, so challenging!
I really like LftL as a cards advantage engine, and i think that we can add Cephalid Coliseum to the mana base: it adds blue and it doesn't enter tapped, moreover we can discard the lands we just returned with LftL.
I like Search for Azcanta too, but i saw that it attracts some attention. In early game i play it right away because i like to hit my land drops, but often it gets destroyed. Maybe it's better to cast it when we have the graveyard ready for the flip...

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 3 years ago

Well, another set is upon us.

So far not a lot, though I do have hope for the white and blue inscription. The flip lands do have serious potential, although so far only 2 really arouse my interest - Sea Gate Restoration and Bala Ged Recovery // Bala Ged Sanctuary.

Sea Gate Restoration seems like pure win. It's an untapped land when necessary, tapped when not, and late-game it gives us a lot of potential firepower. Hard to imagine a better way to transition into the dominant position. Plus with a karoo land we can pick it up even if we played it earlier.

bala ged recovery is a little tougher but still solid. Not having an untapped option is a major bummer, though. But mostly it looks like weak sauce compared to Mystic Sanctuary - sure, it gets it straight back to hand which is sweet, but sanctuary costs no mana and more importantly, can be fetched and tutored by land tutors, so it's functionally many cards in the deck. But there is value in getting back a wipe ASAP, as well as recurring lands and other non instant/sorcery cards. So idk, it's probably at least semi-viable.

The counterspell land I kinda hate. Counter unless they pay 1 is so early-game focused that both sides are basically only good early. Sometimes someone will play a game-winning X spell or something where it'll still be useful, but usually I think you'll struggle to find a worthwhile target unless you're willing to snipe some random early value play, which is usually not worth it.

The pathways are...fine. If they get included they're a marginal improvement though, nothing too exciting. Looks like only one works for us anyway, and it's the worst combo - although having a land that can sometimes be green if you need it could be nice if you're having a hard time finding green to cast Phelddagrif I guess.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

Winterstrike
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Post by Winterstrike » 3 years ago

How on earth did you miss this?

Image

Also, I know you guys like not having nonland perms, but I like my stax and I don't run tons of board wipes like you guys. It's ok to beat people up sometimes. I don't mind this piggy. It probably won't make the final cut but it's slightly interesting.

Image

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 3 years ago

I've said it before, but I really don't think Phelddagrif gels well with stax effects, especially ones that will affect a lot of decks (those with some ramp) in an often minor way since it's more likely to annoy people and less likely to actually solve the problem. And even big ramp isn't usually a hard problem for us to solve - counter/kill the scariest bombs and use their resources as a beacon to direct your other opponents to kill them. I also just don't like niche answers in general, although cantripping at least partially resolves this.

Yasharn isn't even close to worth mentioning imo - the hate effect is very narrow and the body is pretty useless. He only gets basics too, which we tend to be light on. I can imagine there are (major) variations of this deck where it might make sense, but for the ethos of this deck it's pretty antithetical.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

Argionelite
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Post by Argionelite » 3 years ago

Hey Dirk, I can certainly see why you rate telepathy so high, as in theory, it's one of my favorite cards as well, but in practice I (and another friend who runs it) have gotten quite a bit of hate after playing it, enough to the point where the inside joke at our table is "Telepathy? More like, everyone walks around the table and turns take 5 times as long." Have you ever encountered this, and if so, how have you dealt with it?

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Hawk
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Post by Hawk » 3 years ago

Agreed that Sea Gate Restoration and Bala Ged Recovery // Bala Ged Sanctuary are slam-dunk inclusions; Sea Gate likely replaces a draw spell for me to drive the landcount ever higher, while Bala Ged Recovery can replace a forest. These are very low-cost inclusions that can help the deck hit land drops early and find fuel in the endgame.

I also think Silundi Vision feels like an auto-include. It's a deep Impulse in the endgame, and another land early.

The card I'm most torn on is Ondu Inversion. 8 mana is a lot for a boardwipe especially a sorcery-speed one. Our build doesn't currently run Play of the Game, for instance, and in theory one never actually pays 8 for it. But, Phelddagriff barely minds taplands so there's very little cost to replacing a plains with this and letting it be a land 9/10 games. I will have to think about if I'd rather have a tapland with "W: Draw a card" (Secluded Steppe) or "6WW: Planar Cleansing" as its split side.

Also hard agree with Dirk - I have zero interest in Confounding Conundrum in this deck for the same reason the deck currently isn't running Smothering Tithe or Ghostly Prison - they violate the first principle of "be invisible". "Okay, pick up a land as punishment for your ramping" is the opposite of invisible. It will draw a ton of aggro and violence. Best case scenario, it eats a Disenchant right away and just delays your opponent a turn, but worst-case scenario it puts you on the radar as "the threat" who is here to STAX everyone out, or opponents have no answer in hand but are holding ramp and decide their only answer is to pummel you until you die. And ramping is often irrelevant to the deck anyways - players ramping into threats can eat your counters and wipes and get politick'ed out, and players ramping but spinning their wheels with trash creatures are friends to arm to kill your other foes.

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 3 years ago

@Argionelite I've sometimes wondered if that sort of situation would come up, but it hasn't really for me. Sometimes people will groan when I play telepathy, but for the most part once it's on the board people don't get that bothered by it. Sometimes someone will kill it, and I'll generally just shrug and go "really, that was the thing you're scared of? You know we can still remember what was in your hand, right?"

I guess it depends what you mean by "hate". Annoyance and snark, or actually getting targeted? If it's the former, suck it up I guess. If it's the latter, then I'd recommend the same thing I always do - wait a minute and someone else will probably do something scary and then people will resume ignoring you. In telepathy's case, you can of course point out that it's letting everyone know about X scary card in someone's hand, which makes it exceptionally easy to throw people off your scent.

If telepathy really is just a hot-button card that people hate beyond reason, then you could always cut it. There's no telling what some people will find offensive in a game of magic, and while I think it's useful to have your word-fu skills down to ward off overzealous threat assessment, if your group consistently targets you for playing telepathy it's probably not worth playing it - same goes for any other card that bothers people, whether justified or not.

@Hawk The more I think about it, the more I like all 4 of the viable-looking DFC lands. I hesitated on Silundi Vision, but on reflection and a quick trip to deckstats + a calculator, I think it's likely worth inclusion - the odds for my deck to hit are over 98%, with almost half instants/sorceries (and that number presumably going up as we cut some lands for DFCs).

Ondu Inversion I think is really good. It might even be the one I'm most excited for. Sure, 8 is a lot, but one of our goals is to play a land every single turn, and ofc we extend the game like few other decks can. Unlike silundi and bala ged which we might want to play fairly early, inversion I think will be easy to decide - if it's early, then we play it as a land and don't look back. If it's late, having another board wipe, especially a global board wipe, is really really good, and the mana cost likely won't matter too much even at 8. One kinda secret nice thing here is that it's easy to pass off. Like, with Akroma's Vengeance, if we cycle it when we're already on 5+ mana and behind on board (which we always are, obviously) then it looks suspicious, it looks like we must have another wipe in hand. With such a high cost on inversion, it's easier to play it as a land without arousing suspicion that we have another wipe. Wipes are one of the things I waffle on the most with this deck - some games I play a bunch of wipes and worry that I look too oppressive. Other games I'm dying for a wipe and can't find one. Having one that's a split card with a land is PERFECT for working towards a middle-ground.

I like all of these flip lands a lot since they'll make it easier to reliably hit land drops while making the deck more consistent in the late game. Being able to play a land every turn is so crucial here and we can increase our land count AND spell count here, giving us more potential gas as well as more reliable early game. Really excellent. Also makes me want to play more karoo lands, maybe.

Agreed on your analysis of CC, well put.

Besides the spell lands (which are huge, granted), there's only two cards I see with any real potential - Branchloft Pathway // Boulderloft Pathway and Broken Wings. The pathway is just a decent land choice that won't change anything significant about the deck, run it or don't, it really doesn't matter. Broken wings is borderline playable, adding a mana and an extra targeting option over disenchant probably doesn't make the cut in my deck, but I wouldn't fault someone for running it.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

Argionelite
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Post by Argionelite » 3 years ago

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Last edited by Argionelite 2 years ago, edited 1 time in total.

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 3 years ago

Haha, that's fun, I like that. Definitely a cute gimmick that also probably sneakily increases your winrate by lowering your threat profile. Curse of exhaustion seems brutal to drop on someone in the 1v1 game (or to neuter someone who's trouble in the multiplayer game), interesting inclusion.

I still check in on mtgsalvation, but I'm a lot more regular on here, so I do recommend this thread as the primary hub.

Sidebar: Been thinking a bit about Mystic Subdual. Sure, it leaves the creature alive to beat face, and can be sidestepped in various ways (protection equips, enchantment removal, sac outlet in a pinch, etc). But it's also a 2-mana instant that removes most creatures from the game, at least in the way we care about. It's not as durable as the land-ifying effects, but it might actually be justifiable just as creature removal, which can also screw over someone's commander if they can't get around it.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

Argionelite
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Post by Argionelite » 3 years ago

@DirkGently

Alright, I gave Overwhelming Splendor a test run today, and it worked, well, splendidly. Everyone realizes that it's a very lategame thing, so no one is really intimidated by its power, it practically neuters the dominant player, and it can be used as the nuclear option of retaliatory threats.

Most importantly however, it works to ensure cooperation once the game reaches the 3 player stage. Say you cast this on the dominant player and practically invalidate him. Even if your opponent recognizes that the eventual 1v1 will be against you, he has no choice but to kill or hinder the player Splendor is cast on first since if you're killed, the dominant player is no longer enchanted, and can just sweep up the game. This then results in the un-neutered opponent spending resources to finish off the neutered player, all while giving you more and more time to curate your hand for the final showdown. If you can guarantee that the enchanted player will die, you can bounce Splendor to cast on your last remaining enemy.

I'd highly recommend giving it a shot. This was one of the cards I included for fun, but in practice ended up working extremely well for our defined playstyle.

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Dunadain
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Post by Dunadain » 3 years ago

This deck fascinates me like few decks do, I just spent the last couple hours reading this entire thread and the one over on Mtg salvation, and now I just made an account to comment (as a chronic lurker, this says a lot about how much this deck has grabbed my attention, lol).

I have plenty of questions, but the big two involve cards that I haven't seen mentioned here at all and both seem like they merit consideration, and perhaps even a spot in the deck.

Nephalia Academy, I know colorless utility lands have a lot of competition, but this seems to pull a lot of weight for two reasons. The first is it make Phelddagrif, and all your hand-based card draw engines (Whispers of the Muse, Pulse of the Grid, some of the other options you listed though I don't think you are currently running them) even more invincible. Admittedly, no one is going to target Phelddagrif with a removal spell to force you to bounce him and then play something like Thoughtseize, but first of all, one of the things that grabs my attention about this deck is that I get to play I nigh-permanent commander, so even more protection just makes me even happier. On a more serious note, I could definitely see him being bounced when you play a board wipe then some other player casts Wheel of Fortune, or some other wheel effect.
Which brings me to the second reason, Wheel effects seem really bad for this deck, Phelddagrif trades having a board presence for having a full and well-sculpted hand. When someone casts a wheel, everyone else keeps there board presence and gains a whole bunch of card advantage, while we trade our well-sculpted hand for a roughly equal sized hand of chaff (maybe not chaff, but it probably won't be as good as the hand we had before). I tried a game with a list I threw together on untap.in (not the best place for a politics deck but I have to take what I can get right now) and one of the players was playing Nekusar, the Mindrazer, the wheels were awful, but there were also a million of them, maybe against other decks they don't seem as crippling. Of course, Nephalia Academy doesn't fix everything, but it gives us a lot of value when someone else wheels, discard whatever we don't want, put the rest on top and immediately draw them, it's like whenever a opponent wheels we get a free Flux whenever someone wheels (potentially even better if we had a hand of less then 7). Of course revealing your cards is big sad, but you can always discard the cards that you'd rather your opponents didn't know about (I imagine you'd usually pitch your board wipes and just pray you drew more). Regardless, how are we supposed to respond to wheels (besides potentially adding this card and tutoring for it ASAP whenever we see Nekusar, the Mindrazer)? Do you just role with it and deal with the huge boost it gives all the other decks, or do you try to counter every wheel anyone tries to play?

Once and Future, I mean, it's a little bit new, but I feel this card should have at least been mentioned by now, merely on the merit of it being an instant speed recursion option. Adamant might be a little tricky to manage sometimes, but in a pinch you can cast it without adamant and I think it would still be fine, one card you need right now back and that draw-engine/boardwipe that you'd really like back on top of your library isn't a bad deal. Heck the self-exiling might even be a boon for this deck, it makes it very clear that you will NOT be pulling off some unbeatable recursion loop for value (the reason Seasons Past was cut if I understand correctly), this card says, "yeah, I just got back the two best cards in my graveyard, but the damage is done and I'll never be a threat to you again, bye."

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 3 years ago

First of all, I'm glad you like the deck so much! Always glad to have more people on the hippo train.

Second, cards.

Nephalia Academy, unfortunately, I don't see justifying a slot.

While wheels can be somewhat annoying, I don't think they're a huge problem. In the midst of a game, I usually don't mind other players drawing cards unless I think they're going to combo off or something. Gotta just roll with the flow, let the tides of the game go back and forth. Other players drawing cards means they've got more ammo to fling at each other. Until the game is close to the end, I usually don't WANT to be the only one sitting on a perfectly sculpted grip while the rest of the table is hellbent. Then I'm likely to end up looking like the threat. Someone wheeling is usually fine since it keeps the heat off me if I'm being a little too efficient. And it also doesn't disrupt the loam draw engines which is probably my current favorite, nor any land-based ones. The one time I really don't want a wheel (outside of some sort of combo) is if it's 1v1, in which case that's what counters are for.

Also I think revealing the hand is a pretty huge downside tbh.

Vs decks like Nekusar, the two cards I'd consider most crucial (besides just killing Nekusar in response to a wheel) are Pulse of the Fields and Nexus of Fate. With pulse, you can almost certainly outpace the life drain - of course it will get discarded when you wheel (unless you counter the wheel), but you can gain a lot of life while you've got it, and multiple times if it gets shuffled into your deck by a wheel (or recurred with the new recursion/land DFC). With Nexus, running out of cards is not longer a problem either. You can also use Phelddagrif's lifegain to ally with other people to beat the crap out of Nekusar if it's a problem.

Once and Future has been on my list to try for a bit - somehow I couldn't find one from all my draft chaff, though, and it kinda fell by the wayside. But I agree that it has some potential - recur in response to a threat and counter, recur and remove, recur EOT for a wipe - lots of options. But it's also 4 cmc for a spell that doesn't affect the board, so I don't think it's a super high priority. I'm bigger on the recursion/land DFC since it can replace a land instead, even though it's less exciting to cast.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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Dunadain
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Post by Dunadain » 3 years ago

Wow, that was a speedy reply, thanks!

I guess my experience with the Nekusar player wasn't representative of wheel effects in general (I also suspect I was trying to have way too tight a grip on the board, old habits die hard, I played a second game and tried only answering that which I knew was going to end the game and ended up winning quite handily, despite thinking for three consecutive turns that if I didn't play my wipe things would grow out of control, I stuck to my guns though and it all turned out for the best).

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 3 years ago

There's a narrow path to walk with the deck - if you play too hard of a control game, you HAVE to play a hard control game, because people will be gunning for you, and ultimately the deck will fail. It can be difficult to walk the right path, where you can wield your apparent weakness as a weapon to protect yourself. You've gotta let the game get chaotic and trust that your low priority target-hood will protect you - case in point, letting wheels happen and trust that your opponents will see each other as bigger threats when the dust settles.

I'm on here a lot, but this week especially I've been refreshing constantly. Gotta keep that hate boner going.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

Ilikehippos
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Post by Ilikehippos » 3 years ago

Hey @DirkGently
I've been enjoying a lot of this deck lately. I've made version similar to your budgetless but i've had to change some cards (mostly even trade 1 boardwipe to 1 target removal, haven't changed the general idea of the deck, stayed on 41 lands) to more suit my meta and add additional wincons in forms of Ezuri's Predation and Reins of Power because I had a lot of problem with winning just by hippo commander damage (when people realized how my deck works, usually when i hit 12 commander damage on someone i get insta focused even when there are even greater treats on board, i've tried waiting for 1v1 several times but it's just impossible to win by then). Most decks in my meta are on 7/8 power level and usually ramp fast with crypts / signets / other stuff which usually means that everyone are on similar threat level and helping one person leads to other having a blast and usually running away with game. Also when i can put hippo into play, other ppl in my pod usually have 5-8 mana already which either makes me not play him at all to hold some answers for game ending stuff like Tooth and Nail with Craterhoof Behemoth or play hippo and pray that the game won't end. The biggest problem i've found with longer lasting games is that i usually lack meaningfull card draw in mid/late game.
While Arch of Orazca is nice but gaining 1 card/turn for half your mana and not having proper hand fill engine is just not doing the trick for me. Hitting Exploration is always nice to boost my ramp but i draw it like once in five games and it drains my hand fast.
I wonder if i just play the deck incorectly but i'm usually really lost if the game last longer, having not enough answers mostly because of card draw being to small and my hand staying empty >.>. Also in several games i had to use hippo bounce back ability almost every turn to block damage but that also meant that i was left without any options to win before termination (lack of haste for hippo and that's why i've added Reins of Power to have more chances in 1v1).

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 3 years ago

Ha, I've got so many people interested in my deck now that I'm so angry at magic that I'm considering quitting the whole damn thing.

If you're looking for stronger draw engines, loam can be pretty much customized for how strong you want. With 1-mana cyclers it's 5 mana to draw 2 repeatedly, so more than twice as efficient than arch. If you want to depower, there's tons of 2-mana cyclers including deserts and duals. There's also pulse of the grid which is 3 to draw 1, plus card selection. So you've definitely got options. That said, you're finding you cannot win in a 1v1 game by the end, it's probably a sign that you're not setting yourself up well enough. Between counters and wipes, you should be able to trade 1:1 or better with all your opponents cards, and you're packing the draw engines that can't be interacted with effectively. If you're playing against someone with 15 cards in hand, that's a sign that you should have kept another player in the game longer.

That said, the deck can be much harder to play in metas where people are mostly winning is explosive ways. If it's all T&N combos and craterhoofs for 200 then it's probably going to be hard to get the table to whittle itself down piece by piece, and you might need to do some creative negotiation (I'll let you resolve craterhoof so long as you don't kill me this turn, for example). Not impossible but a lot more difficult. It's also true, as I've mentioned, that you really need to walk that knife edge of vulnerability, and if you've already shown a consistent playgroup a nastier control side of the deck then it may not work in the future because they won't sense the vulnerability you need to protect yourself - not without a lot of lost games first, at least. It's really easy for this deck to just turn into a regular old control deck with a bad wincon, especially if you're playing it regularly against the same people all the time.

If you're running out of cards in hand consistently, then either you're in some god-awful meta where people are playing actual must-answer threats constantly and run few answers, in which case I guess you need better draw engines (or maybe a better meta), or (more likely) you're overusing your answers and you need to chillax and let the table get a little wilder before stepping in to do anything. Give the other players a chance to deal with it if at all possible, and only step in when there's a significant risk that your intervention is required to prevent the game from ending.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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Hawk
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Post by Hawk » 3 years ago

Curious to hear your thoughts on Commander Legends. I've been surprised at just how little interests me for ol' Grif. I know previews aren't done yet, but there isn't that long to go. A few months ago I wished for...

- More Generous Gift-style removal: We are getting Amphin Mutineer but I don't really want it. The encore is great, but at 4 CMC and sorcery speed it isn't where we want to be. Also, a 4/3 is notably worse than a 3/3 because it can actually trade off with Phelddagrif.
- Instant-speed Regrowths: Nope :(
- Cards with Split Second: Nu-uh :(
- Instant-speed Boardwipes: Negative :(
- 1/1 Green hippo tokens: WotC has killed this dream I dreamed :pensive:

We are getting a few cards I'm intrigued by though...

- Wrong Turn: "Yeah, I think lil' Timmy and his Wurm tribal deck would benefit from your Chulane, Teller of Tales, friend". Obviously removing or locking down problematic commanders is better than this, but passsing off an insanely deadly commander to a weaker player who can't abuse it definitely has value. If it were 1 or 2 I'd be all about it; 3 is a bit spendy.
- War Room: Obviously designed for mono-color and Boros decks, but I'd actually think about it in Pheldagriff. It's probably worse than Arch of Orazca and Bonders' Enclave but like how much worse? There may also be a world where we want all three despite them making colorless. IDK, interested to test it.

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 3 years ago

There's a lot of reprints, a lot of the new cards are new commanders, and most of what's left is to support the archetypes, so it's not too surprising that it doesn't have much utilitarian removal and counters.

I picked out the same two as being interesting. The more I think about it though, the more I like wrong turn and the less I like war room. We're already glutted with colourless utility lands and 3 life is a lot. I mean pulse of the fields is great heal for us, but as a combo with war room it's basically just arch or orazca with more flexibility.

Wrong turn is a little pricier than I wish it was, but it's still a neutralizing-ish removal at instant, and in a very phelddagrif style. If you can't forge an alliance of sorts, or at least avoid being the target, it's terrible, which is just how I like it. The biggest downside is that it's an unbelievably bad topdeck in 1v1, where imprison is usually excellent.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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Kapusta
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Post by Kapusta » 3 years ago

Hey Hey, new set and new cards. Foretell is an interesting new mechanic and so far I'm happy with the cards spoiled in this set. Some new goodies that I'd like to consider! However foretell does something that we don't want to do to our opponents, cause a sense of unease over cards we are hiding. I believe foretell may cause opponents to target you because they are scared of your foretell card but it's still worth going over:

Saw it coming: Image
One of our foretell cards. Not particularly better than many of our other counterspells. Would only run this if another card is spoiled with a better foretell synergy or just use this to add more foretell cards. That'll keep your opponents guessing ;)

Doomskar: Image
Now that's a foretell card! Early game foretell that splits up the cost for a later turn nicely. Protects it from being discarded and hides it should someone look at your hand. Again, hidden cards may cause opponents to trust you less but I think this one may be worth it.

Ravenform: Image
Blue just gets all the neat cards huh? Sorcery speed hurts but this one is fairly flexible removal for a not so restrictive cost. May replace one of my less efficient removal spells just because this hits creatures and artifacts. Wild.

And now the lands that interested me -
Image Colorless but it does grow our proud hippo over time. Kinda meh for me.
Image Gives our hippo a little bit of a push in power and gives us lifelink for a potentially crucial life boost. Tapped hurts but I'd consider it.
Image Eh, it's really expensive. Other lands craw cards for a less restrictive cost but this does provide a white mana. It's ok...

Ya'll find anything else interesting? Still have a couple days left of spoilers so who knows what we may get. Doomskar definitely is my favorite so far.

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 3 years ago

I'm not sure what to expect from foretell - Barring an enemy telepathy effect in play (after you've already foretold), they're no more secret than the cards in your hand, so I kinda doubt they'll raise more threat assessment than just having another card in hand. If anything, they're significantly less secret since they can only be foretell cards. Especially if doomskar is the only one you're playing, it could easily have the nev's disk problem, except worse since it's a sorcery.

I do like it being untouchable to discard effects and whatnot, though that's pretty niche.

To me it sort of reads like a clue token, where it's a card in hand without technically being a card in hand. But since it's another actual card, I don't think it has quite the same vibe as a clue token, which is more of a potential card.

The biggest weakness here imo is that the bar is just so high for our answers thanks to all the strong ones that've been printed over the years. Saw it coming - even with a free foretell - compares imo unfavorably to mana drain and arcane denial. I wish it could be foretold for more and then cheaper to cast or something to give it an edge over those powerful vintage counterspells, but it doesn't. Doomskar is a bit better since 3 is a decent advantage over WoG, but I do think it risks being really obvious without running any others, which is a disaster, and it's still 5 mana at sorcery speed. And I don't like Ravenform at all - the cost is unimpressive, but being a sorcery is a total disaster. If we were mono-blue, maybe, but we've got plenty of opportunity to run artifact removal in green and white so it's not really worth the sacrifice imo. And I don't think it's worth running a mediocre card like ravenform or saw it coming just to throw people off the scent of your doomskar.

As far as the lands...

Of the 2-color uncommon utility lands, GU is obviously out, WG seems very underwhelming, and UW looks like a minor upgrade over Memorial to Genius, it's basically the same card with more color restriction in exchange for 2 life. I'm not a huge fan of sacrificing lands for cards tbh, though I could see it being a decent edge for decks that want to recur it with a loam package in order to stay ahead of group slug effects without being too threatening, so it does merit some consideration.

I kinda like tyrite sanctum tbh. The sac effect is a rattlesnake that basically means our commander must always be treated as indestructible as long as the land is untapped, and it can dramatically speed up the clock in the late-game which is a pretty big QoL improvement. Loam also lets us recur it, so we could even make Phelddy indestructible to wipe the board ourselves, and then bring it right back to pump and protect him again in the future. BUUUT the deck is very tight on utility lands, so it's always tough to find room for one. I'd certainly like to try it, though.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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