Let's rank ALL the fixing lands

[Yatsufusa]

Replying to both pokken and Dirk generally (too lazy to quote and answer each comment specifically):

I think it boils down to each of our individual building habits. I don't build 4C (and my 5C deck has its own quirks to not qualify under this scheme) so my rankings were heavily biased on how I built my 3C and 2C decks. I don't run ABUR (mostly because they can't be foiled and that added incentive for me to not add more costs getting them when bling already costs $$ especially when it comes to older cards) and something I neglected to mention in my rankings.... I don't run off-color fetches because of aesthetics (also 11 foil fetches for 5 decks already pretty costly, no incentive to add more either). Lastly, I'm cautious about nobasic hate, so I ensure at least 2 of each basic type in my 3C decks (and keep color-intensive cards to a minimum on the other end).

So yeah, when a 3C decks only has 3 fetches but also has 3 shocks with a Triome and at least 6 basics (and I actually usually have around 10), my priorities end up skewing the way they do.

#1 - I have an extreme checkland bias because the moment you land a shockland (via fetch or not), it basically unlocks all 3 checklands in a 3C deck. I can see value dropping in 4C/5C decks, but in 3C it's nearly unparalleled for me (I don't think I've ever had a checkland fail in 3C) and that's from someone with only a Triome, Shocks and Basics (no ABUR, Tangos and Bicycles). I can only imagine with ABURs it would be even better.

#2 - I don't really recur my fetchlands. Usually one use is enough because at that point my ramp also does the rest of the fixing (Signets in non-G and G has fixes itself regardless of fetchlands, fetchlands are more of the support there). If I even recur lands it's usually for other utility lands and even if I get fetches back later-game getting basics would be the better play for safety reasons. As such Tangos have much less value in 3C because by the time I consider getting them I have no real need/priority for fixing anymore. If I could afford to give up tempo I already gave it up for the Triome/Triland (or a tapped Shockland). This is why Tangos rank below even trilands in context of a 3C deck. In a 2C deck you just have to pretend the Trilands don't exist (because they technically don't) and move everything up in rank accordingly.

#3 - In 2C though, where I only run 1 fetchland and 1 shockland, alongside roughly around 15 basics, Tangos become much more viable from both ends, where I have more basics to ensure ETB untapped and there's a solid chance I drew my Shockland (along with 2 basics) before I even got to my fetchland, making Tangos a reasonable addition.

#4 - I do rank Bicycle (with Fetches) has the 2nd highest ETBT land (behind Karoo Lands because of their potential), but it's just on-paper. In practice I've already filled it out with all the front-rankers (alongside other lands that can't be ranked like Nimbus Maze) that I never reached the point I considered Bicycle Lands. The same way fetch-shock-triome-basic was enough for 3c, fetch-shock-tango-basic is enough for 2C that I would rather experiment with other non fetch-system lands for their utilities (stuff like Odyssey Filters and Reveal Lands/Snarls, which work on the same spectrum as Tangos for 2C for me, easier to reveal a basic when you have 15 than 10). I place a lot of emphasis on tempo and safety when building my land-base so when we have as many land choices (not even limited to cycles) as we do now, ETBT lands reached a point they just don't make the cut (and the only ones that do did it because they had provided 3 colors or were extra-quirky enough like Karoos).

[pokken]

How are you going to run out of fetch targets if you have a lot of basics?

The time when having good fixing matters the most is early. By late-game, the number of lands you've got will smooth out any bad RNG that might leave you short a color. But early is the time when tangos are at their worst. It's like win-more, except fixing-more.

Unless you're worried about nonbasic hate, I'm pretty sure the optimal 3c+ manabase has hardly any basics. I would never run a tango outside of 2c, and even then, only on a budget. Can't remember if I still have on in my Kaervek, but that'd be the only deck of mine that might have one.

You would be surprised how regularly you run out when you run off color fetches and your only fetch is one that gets one of your colors and happens to only have 2 basics and you also play Kodama's Reach or Land Tax or Tithe. My manabases are not "optimal" but they support repeatedly recurring fetchlands better than most decks do because instead of Mana Confluence I have Prairie Stream or similar.

Most of my 3 color manabases can support 12 basics and 8 typed duals (usually 3 shocks 3 abur duals and 2 other fetchables like tangoes/bicycles). They're not ideal, but they're stronger against a lot of random shenanigans and usually let me do goofy stuff with reusing lands like Cosmic Intervention or Ramunap Excavator etc.

I'm something of a connoisseur of repeatedly playing fetchlands and having that be part of my deck theme whether it's playing %$#%$#% off the top, replaying lands from the bin, or whatever.

It's a matter of taste I know, but I can't be arsed to pay an extra $80 per deck for the Forbidden Orchard, Reflecting Pool, City of Brass and Mana Confluence either =P I have one deck with those I think (haldan and pako artifacts, where I don't do major land replaying). And then the bookkeeping of taking damage on every tap gets pretty old vs drawing virtual cards often from shuffling =P

[DirkGently]

You would be surprised how regularly you run out when you run off color fetches and your only fetch is one that gets one of your colors and happens to only have 2 basics and you also play Kodama's Reach or Land Tax or Tithe. My manabases are not "optimal" but they support repeatedly recurring fetchlands better than most decks do because instead of Mana Confluence I have Prairie Stream or similar.

Most of my 3 color manabases can support 12 basics and 8 typed duals (usually 3 shocks 3 abur duals and 2 other fetchables like tangoes/bicycles). They're not ideal, but they're stronger against a lot of random shenanigans and usually let me do goofy stuff with reusing lands like Cosmic Intervention or Ramunap Excavator etc.

I'm something of a connoisseur of repeatedly playing fetchlands and having that be part of my deck theme whether it's playing %$#%$#% off the top, replaying lands from the bin, or whatever.

It's a matter of taste I know, but I can't be arsed to pay an extra $80 per deck for the Forbidden Orchard, Reflecting Pool, City of Brass and Mana Confluence either =P I have one deck with those I think (haldan and pako artifacts, where I don't do major land replaying). And then the bookkeeping of taking damage on every tap gets pretty old vs drawing virtual cards often from shuffling =P

This seems like an extremely unlikely situation to me. You're describing:

-You only get 1 fetch
-It's an off-color fetch
-It's on-color for your least common color
-You already played land tax or kodamas or whatever and targeted the basics for that color
-You have crucible
-You've already fetched your other dualland targets and any remaining basics
-You don't have other land drops you'd rather play instead

...and even in that very unlikely scenario, couldn't you just replace it with a basic of that color? You'd still have an equal number of targets for that color, and wouldn't be running a usually-enters-the-battlefield-tapped-especially-at-the-beginning-when-it's-most-crucial land. I'm really not down to play an etbt dual land will almost no upsides. From the scenario you're describing it sounds like it's not likely to enter untapped until turn ~5 which is glacial imo.

I like doing fetch recursion too (fairly common play in Phelddagrif with Loam) but I've never been that upset when I run myself out of targets for a fetch (provided I didn't goof and play/crack a fetch with no targets). Usually by that point I already have a ton of lands and it's pretty irrelevant, and I've likely got plenty of other lands to play instead. Whenever I used to draw a tango in early versions of the deck I'd die inside. I replaced them all ASAP.

[pokken]

This seems like an extremely unlikely situation to me. You're describing:

-You only get 1 fetch
-It's an off-color fetch
-It's on-color for your least common color

Welcome to my frigging life. add Ramunap Excavator or Crucible of Worlds or Life from the Loam and Azusa, Lost but Seeking and Exploration and Wayward Swordtooth and Ancient Greenwarden and...

I have run my MW deck entirely out of fetchables so many very many times. Like completely out of fetchables of all types, much less just islands or mountains (which happens too).

Even with the current fetchable count of around I have lost games due to not getting a lethal landfall trigger more than once, to the point I think about adding the snow fetchables

[DirkGently]

So just win already?

I'd just replace it with a basic if nothing else. Same number of fetchables without entering tapped. If you're really ramping that hard color fixing should be irrelevant.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

I like the tango lands myself. My only edh deck atm is a budget build of Phelddagrif (as budget as having 10 fetches can be) and I've found myself adding more basics over time to mitigate the power of nonbasic hate. I think if a given 3 color deck runs between 12-15 basics with fetches, tangos shoot up in playability. I also think that most players underrate basics and fail to play a sufficient quantity in 3+ color decks.

But hey, maybe most people don't mind getting shut out of games by blood moon and company as much as I do. Maybe it's due to my experience against Back to Basic control decks in legacy that I value the basics so highly though.

[pokken]

I'd just replace it with a basic if nothing else. Same number of fetchables without entering tapped. If you're really ramping that hard color fixing should be irrelevant.

It's not really the case; roughly twice as many fetches get Cinder Glade as get Mountain or Forest? (7 vs. 4? I dont' remember exactly). So you're a lot more likely to hit a fetch that gets more things.

So just win already?

I'd love to but double triggering Omnath, Locus of Rage while Risen Reef is out is more important to me than winning =P

[RowanKeltizar]

I'm curious as to where the new cycle of duals fits in.

Overgrown Farmland
Deserted Beach
Shipwreck Marsh
Haunted Ridge
Rockfall Vale
Shattered Sanctum
Dreamroot Cascade
Deathcap Glade
Sundown Pass
Stormcarved Coast

I personally think they are very good for casual to semi competetive edh, where you really don't want lands coming into play tapped in later turns and don't care as much in the first 2 turns. I also think they are great for 3 or 4 color decks where you don't run very many basics and the checklands might become suboptimal. The way I play and build decks these would rarely come into play tapped.

EDIT: Checklands are likely still better if you have a full set of shocklands and fetches. However, these new duals are a good option for a budget 3+ color deck.

For those reasons I'd rate them somewhere between #8 and #5 and personally I like them better than ODY filters in 3 color, but probably just behind the filter lands (which i generally really like for most decks). I would also tend to run them before the pain lands as well.

Also, they are most likely an autoinclude for 2 color decks unless you specifically have basic land type synergies or experience nonbasic land hate (or run your own effects)

It really depends on your deck and how many colors you are running, as well as how fast your meta is. I know they aren't good for cEDH, but I don't play that way.

I was very surprised to see the horizon lands so low on the list. Logically I would think they could secure a spot just above the OG pain lands since they have the added utility of being able to sac themselves and draw a card. I think that slightly outweighs the option to not take damage by tapping for colorless with the regular pain lands.

I've loved them in every deck I'm able to slot them in and hope they finish the cycle soon.

[pokken]

I'm curious as to where the new cycle of duals fits in.

Overgrown Farmland
Deserted Beach

I like these a *lot* as budget lands. Unfortunately they cost too much! Once they rotate out of standard and are a buck or two I think they'll be amazing pickups for just making casual 3c decks. With Fabled Passage being perennially available and Command Tower basically free, we're getting very close to a viable budget 3c manabase that isn't loaded with taplands.

Logically I would think they could secure a spot just above the OG pain lands

You can tap the og pains for colorless and not take damage. It's sometimes relevant? Also if you're running Mana Confluence and City of Brass stuff can get really out of hand fast.

[RowanKeltizar]

You can tap the og pains for colorless and not take damage. It's sometimes relevant? Also if you're running Mana Confluence and City of Brass stuff can get really out of hand fast.

But drawing cards is goooooood, especially as a land and especially in a deck where you have either excess lands late game or could potentially start topdecking. I think the synergy with land recursion really makes them a premium dual. Not every deck can do that but with things like Ramunap Excavator or even Sevinne's Reclamation and Sun Titan are enablers that are typically run already.

[pokken]

But drawing cards is goooooood, especially as a land and especially in a deck where you have either excess lands late game or could potentially start topdecking. I think the synergy with land recursion really makes them a premium dual. Not every deck can do that but with things like Ramunap Excavator or even Sevinne's Reclamation and Sun Titan are enablers that are typically run already.

Yeah I typically play one personally in a loam deck but I don't love having to spend my land drop for it to draw, it winds up costing 2 mana and a land drop - it's really a last ditch situation.

The one I use the most is in Breena, the Demagogue where I can take advantage of being behind on lands more with stuff like Scholarship Sponsor and my cards tend to be individually stronger.

[Sharpened]

You can tap the og pains for colorless and not take damage. It's sometimes relevant? Also if you're running Mana Confluence and City of Brass stuff can get really out of hand fast.

But drawing cards is goooooood, especially as a land and especially in a deck where you have either excess lands late game or could potentially start topdecking. I think the synergy with land recursion really makes them a premium dual. Not every deck can do that but with things like Ramunap Excavator or even Sevinne's Reclamation and Sun Titan are enablers that are typically run already.

I think you're overrating the Horizon lands. Drawing cards is only as good as your ability to deploy them. Most of these decks aren't Legacy or Modern constructed decks that function on 3 lands only. They are decks designed to use their mana and while they may have a low curve, more mana means more things to do. Sacrificing a land is a big cost. And using stuff to sac and recur the horizon lands is nice and all, but it's a very slow engine that functions in small increments. There are a lot of bigger and swingier ways to generate advantage that people are playing. The cycle from play of the Horizons is nice, but it's more of a "break glass in case of emergency" thing than something you likely plan on using. Nice to have, but more of a secondary bonus than a primary attraction.

[RxPhantom]

The slow lands are pretty cool. They're an auto include in my two-color decks, and if I didn't have plenty of shocks, checks, and BBD duals, they'd probably find there way into my 3C decks. These are exactly the kinds of lands the format needs to be printed into the ground in order to lower the barrier of entry into the format.

As for the larger topic, I still find that pain lands are undervalued. The downside is so minimal that it almost doesn't matter.

[DirkGently]

It's not really the case; roughly twice as many fetches get Cinder Glade as get Mountain or Forest? (7 vs. 4? I dont' remember exactly). So you're a lot more likely to hit a fetch that gets more things.

Yes, but you were hypothesizing a situation where (1) you have a lot of basics and (2) you had two color with fewer fetch targets. Not really seeing how those can both be true and you're still running out of fetch targets unless you're drawing out the game way past the point of reasonableness. Just replace the crappy dual with a basic in whichever color is light. Presumably losing a target for your heavy colors is pretty irrelevant.

I'd love to but double triggering Omnath, Locus of Rage while Risen Reef is out is more important to me than winning =P

And that's not drawing you into another fetch that can hit your other colors?

[Hawk]

The problem with the Horizon Lands, for me at least, is 100% a concern of budget. Sunbaked Canyon, Silent Clearing, Waterlogged Grove, Fiery Islet, and Nurturing Peatland (and OG Namesake Horizon Canopy) are anyway from 2-10x more expensive than their Painland equivalent. I agree they are "better" than a painland (that life is unlikely to matter in the grand scheme of things for most decks/players), but they are not strictly better nor are they 200%+ better. As noted, saccing a land is also a big deal in EDH, meaning these lands are not always great in a vacuum - they tend to become great for decks that are likely to pay-off the sacrifice (Korvold, Fae-Cursed King, The Gitrog Monster, Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest) or loop the lands for value (any white deck with Sevinne's Reclamation or Sun Titan; any green deck with Life from the Loam, any deck making good use of Crucible of Worlds). That's a lot of decks, but again not every deck.

That means I would only play it if I had a spare, and would only go out of my way to pick one up if it was a deck that derived a ton of value from it, and even then there's some more budget-friendly alternatives.

[RowanKeltizar]

That means I would only play it if I had a spare, and would only go out of my way to pick one up if it was a deck that derived a ton of value from it, and even then there's some more budget-friendly alternatives.

I agree with your assessment. They are better, sometimes much better than the regular painlands (in the right deck), but not 200% like you said. Their price tag doesn't exactly correlate with what they add to most decks compared to other options. (However I do think we will get a reprint at some point as which time those prices will tank.


For these reasons I would rank them at #9 on this list and the regular painlands at #10. Putting them at #14 after temples feels harsh to me.

Personally I do feel they are good enough to run in every one of my decks. I tend to play with a fast playgroup albeit not exactly combo and certainly not cEDH. These lands feel good in that environment.

[Dunharrow]

I really love this thread. Any chance of a new thread for mana rocks?

[RowanKeltizar]

I really love this thread. Any chance of a new thread for mana rocks?

I'm also a sucker for lists and ranking. I could potentially start one if people would find any value in it. One could also list sorcery based ramp, or mana dorks.

I wonder if there could be a sticky post with links to all the lists as a community resource.

[Gorillajay]

@DirkGently Curious where a few of the newer cycle of lands fall on this list. Particularly the Slow Lands (Example: Deserted Beach) and the Pathway Lands (Example: Hengegate Pathway).

[Mookie]

Curious where a few of the newer cycle of lands fall on this list. Particularly the Slow Lands (Example: Deserted Beach) and the Pathway Lands (Example: Hengegate Pathway).

I would put the slowlands close to the checklands - checklands are better if they consistently enter untapped on turn 2, but worse if you don't have enough typed lands to support them (such as in 3+ color decks).

Pathways are alright in 2-color decks, but I'm low on them elsewhere - I would argue that they're worse than Prismatic Vista, which can also fix for 3+ colors, dodge nonbasic hate, and fuel graveyard synergies. They're good if you only need a little fixing, but go down in value if you have particularly heavy or specific color requirements. Maybe comparable to the ODY filters?

[DirkGently]

@DirkGently Curious where a few of the newer cycle of lands fall on this list. Particularly the Slow Lands (Example: Deserted Beach) and the Pathway Lands (Example: Hengegate Pathway).

Honestly I rate them pretty highly. I think in my original ranking I probably overrated checklands, but the slowlands are somewhere around the same place depending on the rest of your manabase. The pathways I think I'd actually rank higher, though as with most duals one must remember that they're pretty mid once you start adding more colors to the deck. But I think getting one of the two colors, with no downsides at all, is pretty damn strong tbh. Unless you're being very greedy I don't think lacking the second color will typically be a big issue.

So I think my updated ranking looks something like:

fetches
abu duals
shocks
bbds
pathways
filters
bicycles
ody filters
painlands
checklands
slowlands
karoos
fastlands
etc...

If I'm considering them for 3c, then filters and pathways move down a bit and ody filters and slowlands move up. Once we're talking 4c+, pretty much anything below BBDs becomes irrelevant anyway (and typically BBDs are also irrelevant).

[pokken]

In a 4c manabase you almost always should be on the main color pair bond land (eg the simic or dimir one usually lol). But off color bond lands aren't good enough. Basically you play the one that lets you cast your fixing tutors and dorks. And you play the main color pair canopy land if applicable usually.

Other than that it's rainbow and fetches shocks and duals.

[TheGildedGoose]

I'm surprised you rate the pathways so highly. They're better than a basic most times, sure, but fifth best dual? Really?

The slowlands are, for most EDH decks, only bad on turn 2, assuming you're not playing cantrip or mana dork tribal. And it's not like them entering tapped is a death sentence on turn 2. I think they're roughly equal with painlands and checklands and slightly worse than bondlands.

It's pretty contextual, but here's my rough list of untapped duals:

Fetch
ABU
Shock
Bond
Filter¹
Slow
Pain
Check
Pathway
Fast
Filter²
Being buried alive on crystal meth
Reveal

¹ Lorwyn filters
² Odyssey filters

As has been noted though, generally speaking I don't even bother with anything below checks (in my primary two colors only) in three color decks, or shocks in four+. With a suite of fetches, your mana should be perfect most games. It's boring.

[pokken]

I seriously don't understand low rating of tangoes and bicycle lands. I will always run them before anything if I can make it work. Constantly annoying that those cycles are half finished and the dimir cycling duals is for some reason kinda pricey.

I like triomes okay too but just haven't worked up to trading for them.

for me it's
Fetch
Abur
Shock
Prismatic vista
Fabled passage
Tango
Core color filter
Core color bond land
Bicycle

And that's all I ever use except maybe a rainbow or two. I'll usually cut fabled or prismatic if I'm not on loam or cosmic intervention which is rare.

If I'm not doing my fetch heavy manabase I can't really be arsed to do anything fancy. I'll just play 26 basics and some karoos or some %$#%.

I don't know if I have any 3 color decks without white or green so I imagine I would approach differently in grixis - but then I'd probably have so many mana rocks I'd just play whatever.

[duducrash]

I most likelly would rather run a basic than a pathway