Still tweaking my Kotis, the Fangkeeper deck. I really want 4 mana on turn 3 to get him out ASAP so I've dedicated over 10 slots to 2cmc ramp to basically guarantee I'll hit some ramp T2. I've got all the obvious front runners of Sakura-Tribe Elder, Farseek, Rampant Growth, Nature's Lore but I've been kinda waffling on what the rest of the ramp should be.
Specifically, I'm running a handful of creatures like Paradise Druid. The deck runs a lot of Wrath of God effects though and blowing up your own mana sources kinda stinks. I was thinking about replacing some of those mana dorks with Explore / Growth Spiral. I'm only running 35 lands though, so I'm worried that I'll whiff on my land drop with them and I have no other landfall synergies.
Similarly, I've got a handful of artifacts / enchantments like Arcane Signet / Fertile Ground.
I guess I'm curious to know people's opinions on ramp sources that aren't Rampant Growth variants. How do people feel about those creature mana dorks vs Talismans / signets vs enchantment ramp vs Explore.
2 CMC Ramp Packages
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the caterpillar - Posts: 1796
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I think you'd need to bump up that land count if you want to play Explore
Essentially, to make Explore do anything more than just cantrip, you'll need to draw 4 lands in the first 3 turns. So 10 cards + 1 from the exploration. Plugging that into a Hypergeometric calculator that will happen a little over half the time.
It's much easier to get 3 lands + 1 piece of ramp than 4 lands + 1 piece of ramp, even if you get to draw +1 cards in the second scenario.
Of course, you could bump up that land count, but I doubt Kotis needs much more mana past 4 anyways You'll be free casting a lot of stuff and pump spells are cheap.
My ranking would be:
1) Rampant Growths
2) Talismans
3) Land-Auras
4) Mana Dorks
5) Explores
Essentially, to make Explore do anything more than just cantrip, you'll need to draw 4 lands in the first 3 turns. So 10 cards + 1 from the exploration. Plugging that into a Hypergeometric calculator that will happen a little over half the time.
It's much easier to get 3 lands + 1 piece of ramp than 4 lands + 1 piece of ramp, even if you get to draw +1 cards in the second scenario.
Of course, you could bump up that land count, but I doubt Kotis needs much more mana past 4 anyways You'll be free casting a lot of stuff and pump spells are cheap.
My ranking would be:
1) Rampant Growths
2) Talismans
3) Land-Auras
4) Mana Dorks
5) Explores
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HONK HONK - Posts: 1980
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I'd personally swap the orders of signets and Wild Growths but otherwise yeah; what Dunadain said. Enchantments in my experience are stickier than artifacts solely because of Vandalblast and I've literally never seen anyone Strip Mine a Utopia Sprawl.
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I think Ornithopter of Paradise has always been slept on a bit.
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My personal ranking is:
1) Explores
2) Rampant Growths
3) Land-Auras
4) Signets/Talismans
5) Mana Dorks
I will say, it comes with some caveats: I tend to play pretty close to 40 lands. 38 is a "low" count for me, so explore is pretty reliably ramp in the early game, and I think of it as cycling later. I also tend to play 2-colour, and mana fixing isn't a big issue. In 3+ colour decks, I'm more likely to play Rampant Growth analogues (especially Farseek/Nature's Lore/Three Visits) over Explores because they can fix mana pretty handily. Land Auras are pretty good, though I typically only play Wild Growth and maybe Utopia Sprawl (I think the "enchant forest" part of it really holds US back). I think 2 mana land auras like Fertile Ground aren't really worth it; at that point, unless you're playing Enchantress, you may as well be playing a Rampant Growth analogue because someone might play a Farewell, and pick enchantments just because. Signets and Talismans are fine, though I'm not fond of the Vandalblast vulnerability. Still, you don't really have much of a choice in non-green, so you might as well.
Mana Value 2 Dorks are dead last for me, with a couple of exceptions. If you're going to open yourself up to your mana being under threat from creature wipes, you might as well be playing the ones that will put you furthest ahead the fastest. Your Birds of Paradise, Elves of Deep Shadow, etc. that let you table the turn 2 Cultivate or get moving on some other non-creature resource building, like Phyrexian Arena or similar. I would typically only run them in a deck that wants to reach an odd number of mana fast (Elf into Cultivate into...).
For your purposes (2-mana ramp into 4 mana card), I would only go with the most exceptional ones, like Fanatic of Rhonas or ones with good synergy (I don't know what would be synergistic for your deck, but, something in the vein of Sanctum Weaver in enchantress, or Incubation Druid in +1/+1 counters). I can see Paradise Druid working in some decks, and I think it probably fits here, since you're just hoping to dodge removal for turn 3.
In a low-land, wrath heavy Kotis deck, I would run Rampant Growths followed by Arcane Signet + Ravnica Signets followed by Land Auras (if you have ramp slots left). Fixing into the turn 3 (especially with a low land count) is probably going to be the bottleneck, and if you're playing a lot of wraths, dorks just aren't going to work well. If you're just playing four Signets, you can easily fix even without a green source (as long as you draw 3 lands for T3 Kotis), and it's unlikely that you're going to lose more than one from an artifact wipe, which is an acceptable loss, IMO (especially once you have Kotis on the table).
1) Explores
2) Rampant Growths
3) Land-Auras
4) Signets/Talismans
5) Mana Dorks
I will say, it comes with some caveats: I tend to play pretty close to 40 lands. 38 is a "low" count for me, so explore is pretty reliably ramp in the early game, and I think of it as cycling later. I also tend to play 2-colour, and mana fixing isn't a big issue. In 3+ colour decks, I'm more likely to play Rampant Growth analogues (especially Farseek/Nature's Lore/Three Visits) over Explores because they can fix mana pretty handily. Land Auras are pretty good, though I typically only play Wild Growth and maybe Utopia Sprawl (I think the "enchant forest" part of it really holds US back). I think 2 mana land auras like Fertile Ground aren't really worth it; at that point, unless you're playing Enchantress, you may as well be playing a Rampant Growth analogue because someone might play a Farewell, and pick enchantments just because. Signets and Talismans are fine, though I'm not fond of the Vandalblast vulnerability. Still, you don't really have much of a choice in non-green, so you might as well.
Mana Value 2 Dorks are dead last for me, with a couple of exceptions. If you're going to open yourself up to your mana being under threat from creature wipes, you might as well be playing the ones that will put you furthest ahead the fastest. Your Birds of Paradise, Elves of Deep Shadow, etc. that let you table the turn 2 Cultivate or get moving on some other non-creature resource building, like Phyrexian Arena or similar. I would typically only run them in a deck that wants to reach an odd number of mana fast (Elf into Cultivate into...).
For your purposes (2-mana ramp into 4 mana card), I would only go with the most exceptional ones, like Fanatic of Rhonas or ones with good synergy (I don't know what would be synergistic for your deck, but, something in the vein of Sanctum Weaver in enchantress, or Incubation Druid in +1/+1 counters). I can see Paradise Druid working in some decks, and I think it probably fits here, since you're just hoping to dodge removal for turn 3.
In a low-land, wrath heavy Kotis deck, I would run Rampant Growths followed by Arcane Signet + Ravnica Signets followed by Land Auras (if you have ramp slots left). Fixing into the turn 3 (especially with a low land count) is probably going to be the bottleneck, and if you're playing a lot of wraths, dorks just aren't going to work well. If you're just playing four Signets, you can easily fix even without a green source (as long as you draw 3 lands for T3 Kotis), and it's unlikely that you're going to lose more than one from an artifact wipe, which is an acceptable loss, IMO (especially once you have Kotis on the table).
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Death to Chronos. - Posts: 702
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For me it's
1) Rampant Growths
2) Talismans/Land-Auras
4) Mana Dorks/Explores
depending on the deck.
I'm with Sinis that you should only play the cream of the crop of mana dorks. You have like 20 (?) options, before you need to look for the dorks? Fanatic of Rhonas is great, as is Birds of Paradise as a flying blocker. And there is always that boring part of ramp: fast mana.
On the other hand: if your land count is too low, your ramp just becomes an expensive land drop.
(this list is more for my mind, because you probably know all the options^^)
1) Rampant Growths
2) Talismans/Land-Auras
4) Mana Dorks/Explores
depending on the deck.
I'm with Sinis that you should only play the cream of the crop of mana dorks. You have like 20 (?) options, before you need to look for the dorks? Fanatic of Rhonas is great, as is Birds of Paradise as a flying blocker. And there is always that boring part of ramp: fast mana.
On the other hand: if your land count is too low, your ramp just becomes an expensive land drop.
(this list is more for my mind, because you probably know all the options^^)
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I would up your land count to at least 36. Playing a Rampant Growth on a turn you miss a land drop feels horrible.
In general, I like Rampant Growths more than the others. You could wiff on explore and the others can get blown up. Land removal is rare.
I don't know how many other spells Dark Ritual would help you with but you could also use that to cast your commander on turn 2. Ancient Tomb and cards that can put it into play like Crop Rotation or Archdruid's Charm doesn't help you cast your commander on turn 3 but can help you ramp. Green Sun's Zenith can be used to grab Dryad Arbor, but I don't know how many other creatures if can grab for you, it has summoning sickness, and it can die.
Basically I would consider all these cards over Paradise Druid, in addition to the rampant growths.
In general, I like Rampant Growths more than the others. You could wiff on explore and the others can get blown up. Land removal is rare.
I don't know how many other spells Dark Ritual would help you with but you could also use that to cast your commander on turn 2. Ancient Tomb and cards that can put it into play like Crop Rotation or Archdruid's Charm doesn't help you cast your commander on turn 3 but can help you ramp. Green Sun's Zenith can be used to grab Dryad Arbor, but I don't know how many other creatures if can grab for you, it has summoning sickness, and it can die.
Basically I would consider all these cards over Paradise Druid, in addition to the rampant growths.
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Death to Chronos.
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May I suggest Salubrious Snail's calculators? They can really help to determine, if you're running enough lands or cards of a specific type.
10 2-mana ramp spells mean that you will see one by turn 2 in 63% of games. 15 ramp pieces pumps that number up to 78%.
https://www.salubrioussnail.com/calculators
https://www.salubrioussnail.com/manabase-tool
10 2-mana ramp spells mean that you will see one by turn 2 in 63% of games. 15 ramp pieces pumps that number up to 78%.
https://www.salubrioussnail.com/calculators
https://www.salubrioussnail.com/manabase-tool
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at 2 cc i want to break parity so bloom tender grim monolith life from the loam paired with exploration mana drain arcane signet is also a tier since its colorless fixes color and taps right away. Sakura is fringe playable since the body matters to cards like survival etc I really like malevolent rumble in lumra. Lotus cobra also breaks parity with fetchlands so can priest of titania. Idealy if im paying 2 and not 1 for my ramp it better have an upside as i have lots of lannowar elf like cards at 1cc so if I'm optimizing I want more for one that costs 2.
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In general, I would grade ramp options on three criteria: efficiency, consistency, and utility.
...efficiency is basic math (more mana produced > less mana produced), and utility depends a lot on your deck, but I think consistency is pretty stable across decks and metas. In general, I would say land > enchantment > artifact > creature, in terms of how resistant card types are to removal. That can vary across metas based on what sort of board wipes / removal people play, but it's at least self-evident when looking at how many colors can deal with each of those card types.
In a vacuum, I like land-based ramp because it's more consistent, but it doesn't take much before I'm more interested in something else. If you're looking to go big, it may be worth looking into something more explosive, even if it may be less consistent... but if you only care about playing Kotis, the Fangkeeper on T3, I would stick to less exotic options. I'll call out Growth Spiral and Planar Genesis as options you may have missed though.
- Efficiency corresponds to how much mana you're paying relative to how much mana you get. Arcane Signet > Rampant Growth because it gives back a mana immediately, but Priest of Titania could be even better if it's giving lots of mana. Etherium Sculptor could give a ton of mana if you're casting lots of artifacts.
- Consistency corresponds to how likely your ramp is to function. Rampant Growth > Priest of Titania if there are creature board wipes, but it's worse if there is MLD. Explore requires you to have a land in hand to play. Stuff like Corrupted Grafstone may not function at all.
- Utility is a catch-all for synergy and other added value. Rampant Growth is great if you care about lands, Priest of Titania is better if you care about elves, Mind Stone is better if you like artifacts or the card draw option.
...efficiency is basic math (more mana produced > less mana produced), and utility depends a lot on your deck, but I think consistency is pretty stable across decks and metas. In general, I would say land > enchantment > artifact > creature, in terms of how resistant card types are to removal. That can vary across metas based on what sort of board wipes / removal people play, but it's at least self-evident when looking at how many colors can deal with each of those card types.
In a vacuum, I like land-based ramp because it's more consistent, but it doesn't take much before I'm more interested in something else. If you're looking to go big, it may be worth looking into something more explosive, even if it may be less consistent... but if you only care about playing Kotis, the Fangkeeper on T3, I would stick to less exotic options. I'll call out Growth Spiral and Planar Genesis as options you may have missed though.
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2 mana ramp is so robust right now. We have a full cycle of 10 signets and 10 talisman, all the 2 mana green ramp. If you want all your ramp to be 2 mana, it is pretty easy at this point. Along with some of the 1 mana ramp options if you want that too. I will agree that if I'm playing a mana dork it is putting out 3 or more mana due to synergy with the deck strategy. Fanatic of Rhonas, Incubation Druid and others already mentioned.
Only time I pay more than 2 is if I am getting some very tangible impact for the extra mana. My most common (non-creature) 3 mana ramps are Harrow, Entish Restoration for landfall or instant speed, Heraldic Banner in mono-color, Relic of Legends for extra mana or tap synergies. There are sooooo many Manalith with upside now, but I just never seem to be in the niche that they become playable in, except Relic of Legends. Patriar's Seal is one I'll play one day I'm sure, but not yet.
I have an affinity for 3 color decks, so my green decks start with all the staple green sorceries, along with probably some of the staple 3 mana creature ETB ramp since I like creature synergy. This is probably my biggest weakness right now. I play a lot of Wood Elves, Yavimaya Granger, and Farhaven Elf which are pretty slow these days, but I like to blink, sac, and reanimate them for value.
Non-green 3 color decks get Sol Ring, Arcane Signet, 3 Talisman, and 3 Ravnica Signets. This is 8 pieces of artifact ramp before I find alternative ramp synergies in my colors. Mono color has been harder since most of the 2 mana rocks are colorless or 2 color, so I'm looking at things like Everflowing Chalice, Thought Vessel, Prismatic Lens, Mind Stone, and whatever Medallion is in color.
Other cards I like
Dawntreader Elk
Scholar of New Horizons
Knight of the White Orchid (don't play it though)
My most unique ramp package is my mono-white deck, which is built for inevitability, not for speed. Here is the ramp package for that deck.
Cartographer's Hawk
Sol Ring
Arcane Signet
Pearl Medallion
Sword of the Animist
Bitterthorn, Nissa's Animus
Sword of Hearth and Home
Sword of Forge and Frontier
Oketra's Monument
Archaeomancer's Map
Land Tax
Smothering Tithe
Only time I pay more than 2 is if I am getting some very tangible impact for the extra mana. My most common (non-creature) 3 mana ramps are Harrow, Entish Restoration for landfall or instant speed, Heraldic Banner in mono-color, Relic of Legends for extra mana or tap synergies. There are sooooo many Manalith with upside now, but I just never seem to be in the niche that they become playable in, except Relic of Legends. Patriar's Seal is one I'll play one day I'm sure, but not yet.
I have an affinity for 3 color decks, so my green decks start with all the staple green sorceries, along with probably some of the staple 3 mana creature ETB ramp since I like creature synergy. This is probably my biggest weakness right now. I play a lot of Wood Elves, Yavimaya Granger, and Farhaven Elf which are pretty slow these days, but I like to blink, sac, and reanimate them for value.
Non-green 3 color decks get Sol Ring, Arcane Signet, 3 Talisman, and 3 Ravnica Signets. This is 8 pieces of artifact ramp before I find alternative ramp synergies in my colors. Mono color has been harder since most of the 2 mana rocks are colorless or 2 color, so I'm looking at things like Everflowing Chalice, Thought Vessel, Prismatic Lens, Mind Stone, and whatever Medallion is in color.
Other cards I like
Dawntreader Elk
Scholar of New Horizons
Knight of the White Orchid (don't play it though)
My most unique ramp package is my mono-white deck, which is built for inevitability, not for speed. Here is the ramp package for that deck.
Cartographer's Hawk
Sol Ring
Arcane Signet
Pearl Medallion
Sword of the Animist
Bitterthorn, Nissa's Animus
Sword of Hearth and Home
Sword of Forge and Frontier
Oketra's Monument
Archaeomancer's Map
Land Tax
Smothering Tithe
Decklists
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These are some of my favorite white ramp spells that you could consider:PrimevalCommander wrote: ↑5 months ago2 mana ramp is so robust right now. We have a full cycle of 10 signets and 10 talisman, all the 2 mana green ramp. If you want all your ramp to be 2 mana, it is pretty easy at this point. Along with some of the 1 mana ramp options if you want that too. I will agree that if I'm playing a mana dork it is putting out 3 or more mana due to synergy with the deck strategy. Fanatic of Rhonas, Incubation Druid and others already mentioned.
Only time I pay more than 2 is if I am getting some very tangible impact for the extra mana. My most common (non-creature) 3 mana ramps are Harrow, Entish Restoration for landfall or instant speed, Heraldic Banner in mono-color, Relic of Legends for extra mana or tap synergies. There are sooooo many Manalith with upside now, but I just never seem to be in the niche that they become playable in, except Relic of Legends. Patriar's Seal is one I'll play one day I'm sure, but not yet.
I have an affinity for 3 color decks, so my green decks start with all the staple green sorceries, along with probably some of the staple 3 mana creature ETB ramp since I like creature synergy. This is probably my biggest weakness right now. I play a lot of Wood Elves, Yavimaya Granger, and Farhaven Elf which are pretty slow these days, but I like to blink, sac, and reanimate them for value.
Non-green 3 color decks get Sol Ring, Arcane Signet, 3 Talisman, and 3 Ravnica Signets. This is 8 pieces of artifact ramp before I find alternative ramp synergies in my colors. Mono color has been harder since most of the 2 mana rocks are colorless or 2 color, so I'm looking at things like Everflowing Chalice, Thought Vessel, Prismatic Lens, Mind Stone, and whatever Medallion is in color.
Other cards I like
Dawntreader Elk
Scholar of New Horizons
Knight of the White Orchid (don't play it though)
My most unique ramp package is my mono-white deck, which is built for inevitability, not for speed. Here is the ramp package for that deck.
Cartographer's Hawk
Sol Ring
Arcane Signet
Pearl Medallion
Sword of the Animist
Bitterthorn, Nissa's Animus
Sword of Hearth and Home
Sword of Forge and Frontier
Oketra's Monument
Archaeomancer's Map
Land Tax
Smothering Tithe
Current Decks
Morophon, the infinite Kavu Ghen, prison Eowyn, human tribal Ygra, voltron control Tymna/Ravos cleric tribal Neheb, Chicago Bulls tribal Edric pauper
Retired Decks
Edgar Markov Kaalia, angel board wipes Captain Sisay Nymris, draw go Sarulf, voltron control Niv-Mizzet, combo Winota Sidisi, zombie tribal Legolas, voltron control Baeloth Raised By Giants, voltron control
Pauper
devotion control elves Goblins Delver
Morophon, the infinite Kavu Ghen, prison Eowyn, human tribal Ygra, voltron control Tymna/Ravos cleric tribal Neheb, Chicago Bulls tribal Edric pauper
Retired Decks
Edgar Markov Kaalia, angel board wipes Captain Sisay Nymris, draw go Sarulf, voltron control Niv-Mizzet, combo Winota Sidisi, zombie tribal Legolas, voltron control Baeloth Raised By Giants, voltron control
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Legion's landing looks a little slow as ramp, but it's price has softened a good bit. I'll look for one in trade, not likely to pay current price for it. Land activation triggers several of my small creature draw effects.
Wayfarer is definitely a good one, and one I have considered many a time. On my radar for sure, thank you.
Now Smuggler's Share is an odd one, and I'll explain why. I went and bought the precon this came in because it was preselling at ~$30, plus a couple other cards int eh same deck also at $10 each, looked like a home run. Turns out, not so much. Thought Smuggler's Share was going to be a windfall of value, and it turns out.... it was a complete dud. The land trigger doesn't happen much after turn 4 unless there is a lands player at the table. And the only player who regularly packs fetches was delaying the activation MULTIPLE TIMES per game in order to deny my treasures. The draw is so unreliable that it was hardly worth the mental effort to track. It would average me 1/2 card per turn cycle, which was just not good enough. I'm seen people say its amazing, but after 4 chances seeing it in play, I went with something else like Enduring Innocence and other such cards. Heck, I also took out Deep Gnome Terramancer for the same reason. Saw it 3 times and got 1 land from it. Archivist of Oghma has largely dissapointed as well. If it doesn't trigger on something that natively happens during a turn, like Smothering Tithe, it has been mostly a miss for me. Not really sure why that is, but it is.
Decklists
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Death to Chronos.
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I had a similar experience with Smuggler's Share. I hoped that it would break parity in Selvala, Explorer Returned. It... did not.
Deep Gnome Terramancer on the other hand performed really well in Ephara, God of the Polis. If you count it as aRampant Growth, it does its job.
Deep Gnome Terramancer on the other hand performed really well in Ephara, God of the Polis. If you count it as aRampant Growth, it does its job.
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For Kotis specifically, I would probably play some Mana rocks. 10 isn't enough to consistently hit one in your opener even with mulligans, and even in 3 colors there just isn't enough 2 Mana land ramp to go around.
That said, some individual cards not mentioned much in this thread that I would look at are: Fertile Ground, Planar Genesis, and Fanatic of Rhonas.
Fanatic is a lot less of a disaster to lose to a wrath since you can still replay it as a better body, and once you pump Kotis is should be online to make GGGG consistently.
Planar Genesis finds you the land when you need it, putting it way above Explore. And it finds you gas when you don't, also putting it way above Explore.
Fertile Ground looks like just an enchantment mana rock at first glance, but I found it to be significantly more resilient than expected from such a card. There is no Vandalblast equivalent for enchantments that is nearly as commonly played, and while it does die to Farewell or A-Command, I find that enchantment is the least chosen mode on those cards unless there is some other significant enchantment in play. Which isn't always the case, and they probably aren't going to be picking that mode just to destroy your Ground because a lot of white decks rely on enchantments for their own operation. Not saying that it is a guaranteed thing, but I think that this card type is significantly more resilient than something like a talisman. Plus it makes the land tap for any color with no loss of life nor input requirement like a Signet, so ease of use is definitely there.
That said, some individual cards not mentioned much in this thread that I would look at are: Fertile Ground, Planar Genesis, and Fanatic of Rhonas.
Fanatic is a lot less of a disaster to lose to a wrath since you can still replay it as a better body, and once you pump Kotis is should be online to make GGGG consistently.
Planar Genesis finds you the land when you need it, putting it way above Explore. And it finds you gas when you don't, also putting it way above Explore.
Fertile Ground looks like just an enchantment mana rock at first glance, but I found it to be significantly more resilient than expected from such a card. There is no Vandalblast equivalent for enchantments that is nearly as commonly played, and while it does die to Farewell or A-Command, I find that enchantment is the least chosen mode on those cards unless there is some other significant enchantment in play. Which isn't always the case, and they probably aren't going to be picking that mode just to destroy your Ground because a lot of white decks rely on enchantments for their own operation. Not saying that it is a guaranteed thing, but I think that this card type is significantly more resilient than something like a talisman. Plus it makes the land tap for any color with no loss of life nor input requirement like a Signet, so ease of use is definitely there.
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HONK HONK
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What deck actually wants to play that much ramp, though? 14+ 2mv ramp spells is a lot and while that gives you a roughly 90% chance to see one in your opening grip with a mulligan, is it actually worth it? If you're mulliganing aggressively you should be able to get there with three mulligans running 11-12 or so as long as you're also running enough lands.
Kotis is an interesting corner case where you really, really want to get him out fast so you can get under people, but even then I think praying for card advantage from your opponents is a risky strategy with so much ramp occupying slots in your deck. Maybe Eshki Dragonclaw? Ramp + creature every turn?
Kotis is an interesting corner case where you really, really want to get him out fast so you can get under people, but even then I think praying for card advantage from your opponents is a risky strategy with so much ramp occupying slots in your deck. Maybe Eshki Dragonclaw? Ramp + creature every turn?
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Yeah, I guess it depends on what deck you're running.PrimevalCommander wrote: ↑5 months agoLegion's landing looks a little slow as ramp, but it's price has softened a good bit. I'll look for one in trade, not likely to pay current price for it. Land activation triggers several of my small creature draw effects.
Wayfarer is definitely a good one, and one I have considered many a time. On my radar for sure, thank you.
Now Smuggler's Share is an odd one, and I'll explain why. I went and bought the precon this came in because it was preselling at ~$30, plus a couple other cards int eh same deck also at $10 each, looked like a home run. Turns out, not so much. Thought Smuggler's Share was going to be a windfall of value, and it turns out.... it was a complete dud. The land trigger doesn't happen much after turn 4 unless there is a lands player at the table. And the only player who regularly packs fetches was delaying the activation MULTIPLE TIMES per game in order to deny my treasures. The draw is so unreliable that it was hardly worth the mental effort to track. It would average me 1/2 card per turn cycle, which was just not good enough. I'm seen people say its amazing, but after 4 chances seeing it in play, I went with something else like Enduring Innocence and other such cards. Heck, I also took out Deep Gnome Terramancer for the same reason. Saw it 3 times and got 1 land from it. Archivist of Oghma has largely dissapointed as well. If it doesn't trigger on something that natively happens during a turn, like Smothering Tithe, it has been mostly a miss for me. Not really sure why that is, but it is.
My cleric tribal and human tribal deck run a lot of 1 drop and 2 drop creatures, so Legion's Landing // Adanto, the First Fort is easy to flip early, but it's obviously the best in Edgar Markov.
Weathered Wayfarer is a human and a cleric, and I run it to grab Ancient Tomb to get Éowyn, Shieldmaiden out early, but I don't run it in cleric tribal. Ancient Tomb doesn't help me play Tymna the Weaver early, the colorless mana doesn't help with a lot of the 1 drops, and I'm not in a hurry to ramp out Ravos, Soultender with an empty graveyard.
Smuggler's Share I run in Ghen, Arcanum Weaver. It has synergy as an enchantment, I have Revel in Riches as a wincon, and if it's not doing anything I can always sac it to reanimate an enchantment.
Current Decks
Morophon, the infinite Kavu Ghen, prison Eowyn, human tribal Ygra, voltron control Tymna/Ravos cleric tribal Neheb, Chicago Bulls tribal Edric pauper
Retired Decks
Edgar Markov Kaalia, angel board wipes Captain Sisay Nymris, draw go Sarulf, voltron control Niv-Mizzet, combo Winota Sidisi, zombie tribal Legolas, voltron control Baeloth Raised By Giants, voltron control
Pauper
devotion control elves Goblins Delver
Morophon, the infinite Kavu Ghen, prison Eowyn, human tribal Ygra, voltron control Tymna/Ravos cleric tribal Neheb, Chicago Bulls tribal Edric pauper
Retired Decks
Edgar Markov Kaalia, angel board wipes Captain Sisay Nymris, draw go Sarulf, voltron control Niv-Mizzet, combo Winota Sidisi, zombie tribal Legolas, voltron control Baeloth Raised By Giants, voltron control
Pauper
devotion control elves Goblins Delver
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Faith Requires Sacrifice - Posts: 520
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I am curious, is this like decks with green where you can dump multiple lands on the board per turn? I am always hesitant to go above 36 lands because I keep worrying I'll end up flooded with lands, and nothing to do with them.
Faith Requires Sacrifice
MTGNexus Primer | Archidekt | Church of Avacyn
Featured on Commander VS 392
MTGNexus Primer | Archidekt | Church of Avacyn
Featured on Commander VS 392
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I usually run between 36 and 38. Participated in my first commander draft last weekend and put 24 lands in my 60 card deck though, which translates to 40 lands in regular EDH. Quite liked the ratio actually - but then my curve was higher too. Hmmm…Avacyn Believer wrote: ↑4 months agoI am always hesitant to go above 36 lands because I keep worrying I'll end up flooded with lands, and nothing to do with them.
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Some are green with extra land plays, but it doesn't really matter. For me, one of the greatest tragedies for Magic is to be mana screwed. It's a waste of a game, people feel sorry for you, etc. I realize that being flooded is equally bad, but I think it's difficult to completely flood if you have an adequate number of draw spells. That said, if you flood, at least you'll be able to leverage what you draw; if you flip into a Pull from Tomorrow or someone Reforge the Souls, you're in business, but you probably wouldn't be if you were mana screwed.Avacyn Believer wrote: ↑4 months agoI am curious, is this like decks with green where you can dump multiple lands on the board per turn? I am always hesitant to go above 36 lands because I keep worrying I'll end up flooded with lands, and nothing to do with them.
If you feel very strongly about it, you can always use some MDFCs or cycling lands where you can have alternative functionality. My decks might have 38-40 lands, but there's absolutely functional stuff like Boseiju, Who Endures, Otawara, Soaring City, Kessig Wolf Run, Monumental Henge, War Room, Mirrorpool, manlands, etc.
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I tend to look at mana source counts more than land counts but I think its more variable than people admit and generally follows your mana curve. If all your game ending spells cost 6+ and you run quite a few your gonna need more total mana sources than most decks and often then also means more lands. Where as if your on an aggro or storm based strategy flooding is an auto loss and mana screw can be perfectly playable. In general I feel like 50 mana sources is a good baseline and decks with high cruve cards lean higher to as much as 70 and decks with winning lines that cost much less say a CEDH deck on thassa's oracle they wont even hit the 50 mark as they don't need much mana to win a game they still want turn 1 ramp plays but at a certain point pretty much never want to see mana again as they already have enough to win they just must now find the correct gas cards. I can get a feel for land count and mana source counts as I tune a deck and something as simple as choosing to play lots of 1cc dorks or 2 cc rocks reduces the number of lands you play as you still want the same number of mana sources and they count.
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Herd Heirloom is also really good, especially for a commander centric deck like Kotis that gets to 4+ power. I'd probably run it before Arcane Signet.
