So like, what’s actually wrong with Craterhoof?

[Jemolk]

The problem with Hoof is a combination of all of the above -- it's functionally very near to a win on the stack, requires only numbers, comes out of nowhere most of the time, is such a thoroughly best-in-class card that it pushes out other options, requires remarkably low numbers compared to any other overrun effect (including Triumph of the Hordes if we're talking small creatures), and it's most common in metas that don't generally expect what amount to wins on the stack out of nowhere. All of that comes together to create a card that's just a massive pain in a fairly unique way. It's not that it's worse than Expropriate, to pick an early example -- it's that it's about as bad as Expropriate while also being a Timmy card that shows up at least ten times more often than Expropriate. In terms of inadvertently forcing power creep within playgroups, I'd consider Craterhoof the individual worst offender, and that alone makes me dislike it more than the feeling I could ever muster up for ThOracle or Expropriate.

[hyalopterouslemur]

*cough* Silent Arbiter. That is all.

[PrimevalCommander]

*cough* Silent Arbiter. That is all.

This is a good temporary option, but hardly a speed bump in green decks with Silverback Elder, Reclamation Sage, Foundation Breaker, Outland Liberator // Frenzied Trapbreaker, Beast Within and so much more. I'd hardly even blink if I saw that, lulling my opponents into a false sense of security as I simply set up a destruction spell immediately before my alpha strike.

I am playing Crawlspace in a deck with low creature count, not as my primary token defense, but just as a way to make me look less appealing to chip damage as token decks set up. I know it won't stop the alpha strikes, but hopefully it will keep my life total healthy enough to whether the storm until I can either win first, or set up a real defense of counter magic and removal.

[pokken]

*cough* Silent Arbiter. That is all.

Things that say "you can win the game as soon as you remove me" tend to not work out as well as people expect. At least in my experience.

[materpillar]

*cough* Silent Arbiter. That is all.

Might as well take this argument to it's logical extreme and tell us to resolve Platinum Angel. It stops Thassa's Oracle too!

The problem with Hoof is a combination of all of the above -- it's functionally very near to a win on the stack, requires only numbers, comes out of nowhere most of the time, is such a thoroughly best-in-class card that it pushes out other options, requires remarkably low numbers compared to any other overrun effect (including Triumph of the Hordes if we're talking small creatures), and it's most common in metas that don't generally expect what amount to wins on the stack out of nowhere. All of that comes together to create a card that's just a massive pain in a fairly unique way. It's not that it's worse than Expropriate, to pick an early example -- it's that it's about as bad as Expropriate while also being a Timmy card that shows up at least ten times more often than Expropriate. In terms of inadvertently forcing power creep within playgroups, I'd consider Craterhoof the individual worst offender, and that alone makes me dislike it more than the feeling I could ever muster up for ThOracle or Expropriate.

Basically this. Not sure that I have much else interesting to add, so imma duck out of this thread as enjoyable as trying to explain my vehement hatred of this card is.

[Legend]

This is going to sound pretty wild but I wouldn't mind if they thought about changing ETB effects so that they were countered if the creature wasn't still on the battlefield when they resolve

Sounds reasonable to me. Intuitive even. Would solve a lot of %$#%. I've thought this for decades. 😎

[ukkuhrmakhai]

Craterhoof is an okay combo card/alt wincon that pretends to be a fair card. Technically, it doesn't go infinite or win on the stack or guarantee a win when it resolves but it plays like it does since everyone loses if they don't have an answer 95% of the time. Once you include it, the best thing your deck can do is search for Craterhoof while building a board, which makes games very linear too. And then it warps the meta because other players either need to board wipe every turn or hold up an answer or risk dying to Craterhoof. And unlike noncreature based Overruns, you get to use the same tutors, protection and recursion you do with the rest of the creatures you are casting so it's surprisingly hard to answer permanently.

The problem with Hoof is a combination of all of the above -- it's functionally very near to a win on the stack, requires only numbers, comes out of nowhere most of the time, is such a thoroughly best-in-class card that it pushes out other options, requires remarkably low numbers compared to any other overrun effect (including Triumph of the Hordes if we're talking small creatures), and it's most common in metas that don't generally expect what amount to wins on the stack out of nowhere. All of that comes together to create a card that's just a massive pain in a fairly unique way. It's not that it's worse than Expropriate, to pick an early example -- it's that it's about as bad as Expropriate while also being a Timmy card that shows up at least ten times more often than Expropriate. In terms of inadvertently forcing power creep within playgroups, I'd consider Craterhoof the individual worst offender, and that alone makes me dislike it more than the feeling I could ever muster up for ThOracle or Expropriate.

This my experience. When you are playing in a high powered group where comboing out of nowhere is expected, Craterhoof is one option out of many, but for lower power groups Craterhoof is basically a way to play combo/alt wincon by accident which then forces the rest of the group to escalate their power or lose.

Sometimes I think people that say Craterhoof Behemoth is an "oops I win" card should pilot decks with Craterhoof Behemoth more often. Sure sometimes it's just topdeck Craterhoof Behemoth → win or Green Sun's Zenith for Craterhoof Behemoth → win.

Personally, I never realized how problematic Craterhoof Behemoth was until I started playing a deck with it. Then I realized that the text is basically

5GGG
Haste
When Craterhoof Behemoth enters the battlefield, at the end of the next combat phase if you attacked with 5 or more creatures you win the game.
5/5

a large amount of the time. At most, I've really only needed 10.

But more often it sits in my hand for a long time as I set up my board for the perfect alpha strike, then before I can cast it, someone wipes and I have to rebuild, then I have a window but the blue player suspiciously left mana open, and sure enough, Cyclonic Rift and it's a real challenge to thread the needle and fit the alpha strike in. So Craterhoof Behemoth wins rarely come out of nowhere. I think if you're surprised when someone wins off of Craterhoof Behemoth, your threat assessment is probably the culprit.

You could rewrite this for Thassa/Oracle easily but the last sentence is the key to two of the reasons so many people I know dislike Craterhoof Behemoth. Few people are playing in Thassa/Oracle except in games where you can expect your opponents to have good enough threat assignment to deal with it but Craterhoof Behemoth gets played in every level of game so you see people using it basically as a pubstomping card in groups/settings that can't deal with it.
Secondly, the threat of a board state changes significantly if you can expect Craterhoof or not (because you have to treat it as a combo most of the time rather than a potential overrun/combat trick). If I have a board of 10 0/1 goat tokens, Craterhoof will probably let me kill the table but Overrun or Triumph of the Hordes would n't do much. So just by being a possibility, Craterhoof Behemoth changes the threat assessment dramatically and in turn how aggressive boardwipes need to be.

[ISBPathfinder]

*cough* Silent Arbiter. That is all.

Might as well take this argument to it's logical extreme and tell us to resolve Platinum Angel. It stops Thassa's Oracle too!

These are also some of the most vulnerable to removal cards that exist. They don't die to like..... Lightning Bolt but otherwise almost everything that removes something and sees play kills these. I have always wanted to run these effects but they are too dang vulnerable to removal to reliably defend you. I would rather have a do nothing artifact creature that had a "sacrifice to Tef's Protection yourself" card by far because the issue is that when they die out of nowhere it results in you dying the same turn and that is a problem with the design of these cards.

I would love to see a "Sac to Angel's Grace until your next upkeep" card exist because it would bypass some of the issues with the design flaw of pillowfort cards.

[Dunadain]

Basically this. Not sure that I have much else interesting to add, so imma duck out of this thread as enjoyable as trying to explain my vehement hatred of this card is.

Think I'm gonna peace out as well.

The two takeaways for me have been

1. Didn't realize how often hoof was being cheated into play in other metas my meta usually just hard cats him.

2. Didn't realize how many people didn't have a problem with the card in a vacuum, but were just sick and tired of seeing the card.

Having reflected a bit more, I also think part of the reason I'm okay with hoof is that he is a good card for the kind of decks I like. I suppose that might be a bit selfish, but it's the truth. Additionally, I do think some strategies are more fun to play against than others and I don't really mind giving green stompy decks a way to race combo decks.

So... Yeah, I'd say I understand where y'all are coming from a bit more, but you ain't gonna see me cutting hoof anytime soon.

[NZB2323]

*cough* Silent Arbiter. That is all.

Might as well take this argument to it's logical extreme and tell us to resolve Platinum Angel. It stops Thassa's Oracle too!

These are also some of the most vulnerable to removal cards that exist. They don't die to like..... Lightning Bolt but otherwise almost everything that removes something and sees play kills these. I have always wanted to run these effects but they are too dang vulnerable to removal to reliably defend you. I would rather have a do nothing artifact creature that had a "sacrifice to Tef's Protection yourself" card by far because the issue is that when they die out of nowhere it results in you dying the same turn and that is a problem with the design of these cards.

I would love to see a "Sac to Angel's Grace until your next upkeep" card exist because it would bypass some of the issues with the design flaw of pillowfort cards.

I think the closest thing I have to this is my cleric deck where Suture Priest and Battletide Alchemist protect me from some die out of nowhere cards, I have Mother of Runes, Giver of Runes, and Selfless Spirit to protect them, and Ravos, Soultender to recur them.

[materpillar]

Having reflected a bit more, I also think part of the reason I'm okay with hoof is that he is a good card for the kind of decks I like. I suppose that might be a bit selfish, but it's the truth. Additionally, I do think some strategies are more fun to play against than others and I don't really mind giving green stompy decks a way to race combo decks.

I think Craterhoof Behemoth being used as a "fair" way to race linear combo decks is pretty reasonable usage. If I was in a meta that aggressively tries to combo out turn 4-6 and you hoofed the table turn 4-6 I'd have no complaints.

It's been an interesting discussion for me too. I'm going to happily go back to my meta where I'll slam Akroma, Angel of Wrath and hope my opponent slams Worldspine Wurm on their turn not Craterhoof Behemoth.

[hyalopterouslemur]

*cough* Silent Arbiter. That is all.

Might as well take this argument to it's logical extreme and tell us to resolve Platinum Angel. It stops Thassa's Oracle too!

I mean, there are solutions, but they're not instant-speed solutions. So, you end up doing something akin to Stax and preemptively solving the problem.