Problem Commanders: Do You Play Them?

[pokken]

I think to some degree the problem is playing on a different level than your opponents.

Sure. But the point of this thread is about power and experiential floors that generals create.

A general like Korvold, Fae-Cursed King for instance is a great example of where unless you straight up ignore his ability, he'll dominate lower power games just by existing and being a cheap flying 9/9 that
draws cards.

Golos, Tireless Pilgrim is probably the most egregious one where the power floor is so high that you almost can't make a deck so bad that it can play with lower powered decks without being the focal point of the game.

These generals trick people into thinking the power of their deck is lower than it is.

[3drinks]

A general like Korvold, Fae-Cursed King for instance is a great example of where unless you straight up ignore his ability, he'll dominate lower power games just by existing and being a cheap flying 9/9 that draws cards.

I really don't think this is true. At least I'm not dominating games especially low power just because I have a white border Korvold. He's pretty fair, sans the Wildfire interaction (which is a win).

[pokken]

I really don't think this is true. At least I'm not dominating games especially low power just because I have a white border Korvold. He's pretty fair, sans the Wildfire interaction (which is a win).

I can't argue with your experiences but I'd be pretty surprised based on your deck that you wouldn't run roughshod over game shop jank. I'd expect that deck to punch way above the weight class of decks with similar card quality (neglecting some of the random expensive lands/tutors).

[3drinks]

I really don't think this is true. At least I'm not dominating games especially low power just because I have a white border Korvold. He's pretty fair, sans the Wildfire interaction (which is a win).

I can't argue with your experiences but I'd be pretty surprised based on your deck that you wouldn't run roughshod over game shop jank. I'd expect that deck to punch way above the weight class of decks with similar card quality (neglecting some of the random expensive lands/tutors).

If we're talking about gameshop jank, that's not really fair to Korvold because anything will turn jank into a punching bag. Just because I have a Hunting Cheetah, doesn't mean I'm punching above my weight class. In honesty, I'm somewhere between mid and high with it. Maybe closer to mid because there's a lot of synergies I miss out on that don't have a WB print.

[pokken]

If we're talking about gameshop jank, that's not really fair to Korvold because anything will turn jank into a punching bag.

The point is that it's really hard to play Korvold against upgraded precons and mid-low powered decks on a budget. He has a high power floor. You have to basically ignore his signposts for him to be capable of playing below a 5 (to use the arbitrary power level metric awkwardly).

Power floor. If your commander is Barktooth Warbeard your power floor is much lower than Korvold, Fae-Cursed King

[materpillar]

If we're talking about gameshop jank, that's not really fair to Korvold because anything will turn jank into a punching bag.

I think if you take your white boarder deck and slap Darigaaz, the Igniter at the helm instead of Korvold, Fae-Cursed King then pre-con level decks probably give you a run for your money. The main thing bumping your deck from a lower power deck to mid is almost singlehandedly Korvold, Fae-Cursed King (I suppose Living Death and Mindslicer to a lesser extent).

[edit]: lol @pokken

[BeneTleilax]

I really don't think this is true. At least I'm not dominating games especially low power just because I have a white border Korvold. He's pretty fair, sans the Wildfire interaction (which is a win).

I can't argue with your experiences but I'd be pretty surprised based on your deck that you wouldn't run roughshod over game shop jank. I'd expect that deck to punch way above the weight class of decks with similar card quality (neglecting some of the random expensive lands/tutors).

If we're talking about gameshop jank, that's not really fair to Korvold because anything will turn jank into a punching bag. Just because I have a Hunting Cheetah, doesn't mean I'm punching above my weight class. In honesty, I'm somewhere between mid and high with it. Maybe closer to mid because there's a lot of synergies I miss out on that don't have a WB print.

No offense, but based on your post history, I have my doubts about your ability to gauge the position of your own decks relative to the power levels and norms of your groups. I converted my mid-power Mazirek into Korvold by basically mashing it together with the precon, and accidentally created a monster. I tried to convert it into junkyard artifacts with things like Glissa, but it was still unfun for my opponents so I ended up taking it apart. He's a self-fueling draw engine that's also an evasive finisher and etb value. He's too self-enclosed.

[ISBPathfinder]

I think to some degree the problem is playing on a different level than your opponents.

Sure. But the point of this thread is about power and experiential floors that generals create.

A general like Korvold, Fae-Cursed King for instance is a great example of where unless you straight up ignore his ability, he'll dominate lower power games just by existing and being a cheap flying 9/9 that
draws cards.

Golos, Tireless Pilgrim is probably the most egregious one where the power floor is so high that you almost can't make a deck so bad that it can play with lower powered decks without being the focal point of the game.

These generals trick people into thinking the power of their deck is lower than it is.

I get that, my point was more that there are problem commanders outside of the few that get thrown around that can result from just combining a bunch of fast mana and draw together as well.

• My Kozilek, the Great Distortion deck got dismantled for being a deck chalked full of cheap ramp and my commander giving me draw. People had a very hard time fighting that deck and while I thought it was super amazing I dismantled it because it ended up being too powerful for most average games while being a bit weak to actual combo decks. It was at a weird place where it was a bit too powerful for casual games but not quite good enough for cEDH.
• I had to dismantle a Ghalta, Primal Hunger deck a while back where I would cast my commander for GG and then slap him into a Greater Good to just crazy power draw repeatedly. It was a little on the weaker side of super busted but it was enough that I didn't feel like I needed to keep doing it to people.
• I likewise have a Sai deck right now that I recognize as being a problem as well. I keep it together because the deck is super sweet but I also know that I can race a lot of proactive linear decks that don't interact with me with that deck to the point that I rarely pull it out anymore.

My point in all of this is that I don't think that the problem is specifically a commander or two but a type of playstyle or level of play and discussion with opponents. There are commanders that have an easier time leaning into the high end of gameplay yes but the issue is one of a few things which might be a ban discussion of if they should be legal but even with them legal there will always be busted things you can do that will go over the top of what other players are doing without communication of what level players want to play at.

[FenrirRex]

Of my collection of 32 decks I run the following "problem" commanders:

Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
Meren of Clan Nel Toth
Edgar Markov
Korvold, Fae-Cursed King
Chulane, Teller of Tales
Atraxa, Praetors' Voice

So, about 1/5th of my decks are headed by problems, though of these six only two of them are anything resembling optimal: Kozilek is just mana rocks and beats with the commander to refuel, but that's all it needs, and Markov is really hard to do anything but the linear play vampires and win.

Meren I've hamstrung by making it an all-permanents/Primal Surge deck, which isn't all that much of a reduction in its effectiveness but it at least prevents some nonsense. Korvold is an all-flavor deck running only things that make him food, would be tasty to eat, or would otherwise be included in a noble dragon's kingdom... though he tends to power the deck all by himself even if he's just eating what's on hand. Chulane is a Dungeons and Dragons theme deck that has to be the most fair I've ever seen the guy, and Atraxa is weird counters and +1/+1 counters rather than the usual (boring) superfriends, though again just doing her thing she can run games over on her own.

I'm a strong proponent of tinkering with decks to make their power level fit the play you want, and excluding a few very big problems (I'll highlight Golos, Tireless Pilgrim as being very hard to make anything but goodstuff) the issue is with deckbuilder homogenization and optimization- less of people building what's fun or what they have out of their collection, and more relying on the printed power from wizards and the easy resources available.

[kirkusjones]

I've been brainstorming a Korvold treasure/fight/fling themed deck with stuff like Old Gnawbone, Xenagos, God of Revels, etc. where I never plan to cast Korvold. I plan on calling it "Don Korvold's Fight Club" where the fighters earn treasure via stuff like Gnawbone. I know going into it that the deck will draw hate regardless, but what's the opinion about decks that rarely or never cast their commander?

[PrimevalCommander]

I've been brainstorming a Korvold treasure/fight/fling themed deck with stuff like Old Gnawbone, Xenagos, God of Revels, etc. where I never plan to cast Korvold. I plan on calling it "Don Korvold's Fight Club" where the fighters earn treasure via stuff like Gnawbone. I know going into it that the deck will draw hate regardless, but what's the opinion about decks that rarely or never cast their commander?

If you don't plan on casting your commander, then you will draw less hate picking a less hated commander to "not cast". Something like Shattergang Brothers or Adun Oakenshield or Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund would all be good commanders that don't draw the eye of everyone at the table. Though flavor may not be as strong with these for your theme.

If I saw a Korvold player going on a treasure theme (like I might do), I would pay very close attention because treasures are just stupid broken with Korvold.

[JovialJovian]

Yeah, I've sat down many a time and assessed threats with only the commanders to go on, seen an obviously dominant threat and targeted that player to death first, before they could get off the ground. At which point they complained that they hadn't built the busted version of the deck, and why am I picking on them?
The commander has the potential to take over if left alone, I have no way of knowing what's in your deck at the start of the game, unless we've played lots of games prior, so if you've got one of those high threat potential commanders, it's going to draw attention from the word go. If you want a commander just for the colors, pick something quirky and fun, it'll draw attention, but less ire, and when you start doing odd things, there will be less of an attitude of suspicion than one of curiosity.

@kirkusjones I suggest Xira Arien for your "just need jund" commander. She's a delightful combination of nonthreatening, strange, and cheap, and can still serve to draw cards in a pinch, which is a nice backup mode in case your deck stalls.

[UnNamed1]

At 1 point or another I have had pretty much all the problem commanders. I've ran multiple instances of Golos and Kenrith. I currently have an Esika, God of the Tree // The Prismatic Bridge deck with Kenrith as the secret commander. I used to run Urza, Lord High Artificer, and have been in the process of rebuilding the deck. I currently run a Najeela cEDH deck, and she is considered a problem outside cEDH. I even briefly had a Zur the Enchanter deck.

I play anything and everything that I enjoy, and I don't feel bad about doing so. If a deck is consistently too strong, i will hamstring it in a way. Like Urza had no stax pieces until I was targeted to the point of not playing. Kenrith had no counterspells. The cards aren't the problem, the players are.

[UnNamed1]

Yeah, I've sat down many a time and assessed threats with only the commanders to go on, seen an obviously dominant threat and targeted that player to death first, before they could get off the ground. At which point they complained that they hadn't built the busted version of the deck, and why am I picking on them?

Maybe try talking with the player and understanding their deck before solo targeting a player and ruining the game?

I played an Urza artifact deck that the entire goal was to win through combat using artifacts, and blinking Urza to allow for more constructs. There was not a single infinite in the entire deck. I had the deck like this for 3 months, getting hard targeted. I sat down and got all the cards to make it a full stax/control/drag out the game style deck Urza was known for, and I played only that deck for one night. I never lost a game that night and EVERYONE hated it. I had to explain they did it to themselves by purposefully targeting me based off what the commander could do and not using proper threat assessment to accurately look at the board state. I made the very thing they hated, because they refused to listen and actually see the deck and instead made assumptions.