Playing commanders that have aged badly

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Sinis
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Post by Sinis » 3 years ago

I love my old cards. It's one of the reasons I came back to Magic to play commander after ~10 years of not playing. However, I've come to a spot where there's no denying that many of my old cards are just kind of bad by today's standards. I don't necessarily mean that Jayemdae Tome|3ED is, for all intents and purposes worse than Arcane Encyclopedia.

I mean it like this:
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Cards like Adun at this point in Magic's life are just kind of bad. Investing 3 mana in a creature with an insignificant body, hoping to untap, and then paying another 3 mana for a one mana effect (with the intent of it being repeatable, but it rarely turns out that way) is... it's painfully bad.

At casual tables where you're relying on your commander instead of just playing it for the colours, this kind of disparity creates a huge barrier to being able to do anything. If I were to power up the maindeck (which I have done in the past to close the gap), I may never cast Adun, at which point, he's just kind of a figurehead.

So, old folks and collectors... what do we do when faced with modern designs while wanting to play old parts of Magic's history?

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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

This is an interesting topic. I mean, I have seen people play the old Vanilla Legends so there is still a place for nostalgia or niche decks. Choosing a commander solely based on power level is bound to leave a lot of older cards in the dust (especially if Wizards continues pushing things as hard as they have).

All in all, I like a lot of things WotC has done for card design and development *if I ignore the legendary creatures*. I enjoy getting things like Rambunctious Mutt (overcosted but finally the effect I want), Luminous Broodmoth, Elder Gargaroth, etc. I think a small amount of power creep is inevitable and most of these are fun cards because they have to go in your deck.

But Legends, the cards we have access to at all times, becoming more and more pushed starts to take a lot of the fun out of things. There is no longer this idea of taking a general like Adun and making him work. He is so far eclipsed by pretty much everything in those colors as to have become mostly irrelevant.

I think we, as players, just need to be more cognizant of these effects and not succumb to just playing with power. Too many things are the "best" things to be doing in certain colors nowadays so we just need to do the things that make things fun for us.

Though, the problem, as you stated, is more about what *other* people do. Playing a fun Adun deck, one that you tweaked to make somewhat competitive, just getting blown out with Zaxara isn't very fun. I had a game yesterday against it and I was facing down two 12/12 tokens pretty early thanks to the enormous value it provides. I am not really sure what the answer is to that. We can't expect others to limit their options based on our notions of fun and nostalgia which just leads to what you mentioned where a general may be more of a figurehead than anything else.

I guess I do more of what you have done: if I really want that general, I make the rest of the deck better. But, practically speaking, I have moved on from Adun, Xira Arien, Gwendlyn Di Corci, and the older cards. They are just far too narrow to be a lot of use anymore.

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Post by folding_music » 3 years ago

I would say stubbornly build decks at the power level you want to play at and keep playing them until other people break down and make decks at that level. giggle. I swear I heard someone say "the secret of the format is not to break it", or something?

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Post by Sinis » 3 years ago

WizardMN wrote:
3 years ago
Though, the problem, as you stated, is more about what *other* people do. Playing a fun Adun deck, one that you tweaked to make somewhat competitive, just getting blown out with Zaxara isn't very fun.
The real kicker is this though: My opponents are friends in a regular playgroup. Because of the pandemic, we play once (rarely twice) a week via webcam. My group is very sensitive to the topic of cards being overpowered or generals being pushed, and the kind of play experience we want. There are at least a few threads on Nexus where people talk about overpowered stuff (like the Ramp+Sink Commander thread), and while I understand them intellectually, my group doesn't play those. Not a single one. A pair of us played Korvold for a bit, and then gave up on it because it felt so broken compared to the games we wanted to play. We had this involved conversation about when it's okay to play Gravepact and Dictate of Erebos; there's this school of thought in my group that if you have sac outlets, you shouldn't play pact/dicate, and if you don't, it's okay.

So, Zaxara is already the negotiated endpoint. My group has already stepped back, and Zaxara is, like, the middle ground (and honestly, Zaxara isn't even that gross as commanders go; last night, several token hydras were dunked by Blessed Reincarnation, only for them to flip into 0/0 real Hydras with X in their cost).

I think my real problem with it is that, I can enjoy losing games, as long as I felt I had an impact and that my deck kinda got to do what it was designed to do, even if it got disrupted. Last night, there was so much efficient exile removal, efficient graveyard hate, and overwhelming scaling power from the other generals (this was vs. Ephara, Aurelia 1.0, and Zaxara) that I felt like I didn't do anything at all.
folding_music wrote:
3 years ago
I would say stubbornly build decks at the power level you want to play at and keep playing them until other people break down and make decks at that level. giggle. I swear I heard someone say "the secret of the format is not to break it", or something?
This was my first thing to do. I mean, I built Adun. I have other terrible decks as well. I recently bought an Angus Mackenzie so I could play him. The difficulty is that I don't feel like my decks are enjoyable anymore. In terms of game design, games have some minimum criteria in order to be fun, and one of those criteria is that you need to feel like you have a chance to win. With many of my decks, I don't really feel like I have a chance, or that if I do, it was because my opponents made such egregious misplays that I could have been playing 99 Mountain Ashling the Pilgrim and never truly had any agency in it.

My playgroup is enjoying themselves. The Zaxara player (who made their deck pretty light) was *definitely* having fun just lobbing out hydras. They didn't take serious pains to protect them, main phase tapped out, didn't hold mana for countermagic. They're a technically good player, but they've built their deck to be pretty weak knowing that Zaxara is powerful. I think it would be silly for me to not enjoy myself while other people are enjoying themselves. I don't really have anyone to blame but myself for playing Adun; I like the nostalgia and old-school-cool factor, but it falls short everywhere else.

I guess, I feel like even middle-of-the-road generals printed in the last couple of years are so powerful that even naive and poorly played versions of them will outstrip anything something like Adun can do when you attempt to build around Adun (instead of just playing some brand of Jund combo that doesn't much care about the general).

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

You know, I've wondered this about even more recent commanders. Lately I've been giving my Glissa, the Traitor deck the side eye and wondering if it's too weak by today's standards and that makes me really sad because I love it.

I simply refuse to disband Dralnu, Lich Lord because I love it dearly and he can still wreak havoc, but there's an argument against him too.

For myself I prefer to be a boomer about this and choose to die in the hill of well rounded, well designed commanders. I'm also well aware that that Is a recipe for winning less games, but I don't care. I just cannot bring myself to play the latest simic/x degeneracy and be happy with that. It isn't me.
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Post by Sinis » 3 years ago

toctheyounger wrote:
3 years ago
You know, I've wondered this about even more recent commanders. Lately I've been giving my Glissa, the Traitor deck the side eye and wondering if it's too weak by today's standards and that makes me really sad because I love it.

I simply refuse to disband Dralnu, Lich Lord because I love it dearly and he can still wreak havoc, but there's an argument against him too.
I see where you're coming from. I think my enjoyment is being prevented by being unable to do anything meaningful with my general in a game.

Part of the Adun gameplay last night was that my creatures got irrevocably answered while I was playing catchup. Part of the problem is that the other generals are very proactive and make something out of nothing with few preconditions (Adun also makes something out of nothing, but the quality of that something is very dependent on an easily-hated resource). I saw Path to Exile, Curse of the Swine, Oblation and eventually, when I recast Adun for a lot of mana, Angel of Finality. Though these cards are of varying age, they're insanely efficient and just dab on Adun in particular super hard.

I did get to activate Adun once or twice, but, it didn't really matter. I'm not so much annoyed that I could have been playing a stronger Jund general, it's more that I was always on the back foot because other generals are more threatening and efficient, and the quality of answers is such that I really needed my general to do something rather than nothing.

I guess, maybe I just don't enjoy the game as much when I feel like I have no agency, or since Adun (and Angus) are so much older than Glissa/Dralnu, I'm just further along in feeling like my cards don't do anything.
For myself I prefer to be a boomer about this and choose to die in the hill of well rounded, well designed commanders. I'm also well aware that that Is a recipe for winning less games, but I don't care. I just cannot bring myself to play the latest simic/x degeneracy and be happy with that. It isn't me.
I mean, I get this sentiment. But, I'm approaching the point where I question if Magic is the game for me anymore. I have often felt that modern designs for legendary creatures are way too forced and clearly intended for command zone occupancy rather than as a design tool to prevent a stacking effect (as it was with Thalia, Guardian of Thraben).

Part of me feels like a hipster about it, but, I also feel like there's nowhere else to go.

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

Sinis wrote:
3 years ago
toctheyounger wrote:
3 years ago
You know, I've wondered this about even more recent commanders. Lately I've been giving my Glissa, the Traitor deck the side eye and wondering if it's too weak by today's standards and that makes me really sad because I love it.

I simply refuse to disband Dralnu, Lich Lord because I love it dearly and he can still wreak havoc, but there's an argument against him too.
I see where you're coming from. I think my enjoyment is being prevented by being unable to do anything meaningful with my general in a game.

Part of the Adun gameplay last night was that my creatures got irrevocably answered. I saw Path to Exile, Curse of the Swine, Oblation and eventually, when I recast Adun for a lot of mana, Angel of Finality. Though these cards are of varying age, they're insanely efficient and just dab on Adun in particular super hard.

I did get to activate Adun once or twice, but, it didn't really matter. I'm not so much annoyed that I could have been playing a stronger Jund general, it's more that I was always on the back foot because other generals are more threatening and efficient, and the quality of answers is such that I really needed my general to do something rather than nothing.

I guess, maybe I just don't enjoy the game as much when I feel like I have no agency, or since Adun (and Angus) are so much older than Glissa/Dralnu, I'm just further along in feeling like my cards don't do anything.
For myself I prefer to be a boomer about this and choose to die in the hill of well rounded, well designed commanders. I'm also well aware that that Is a recipe for winning less games, but I don't care. I just cannot bring myself to play the latest simic/x degeneracy and be happy with that. It isn't me.
I mean, I get this sentiment. But, I'm approaching the point where I question if Magic is the game for me anymore. I have often felt that modern designs for legendary creatures are way too forced and clearly intended for command zone occupancy rather than as a design tool to prevent a stacking effect (as it was with Thalia, Guardian of Thraben).

Part of me feels like a hipster about it, but, I also feel like there's nowhere else to go.
Oh I totally get it. I don't really like the games I play against these pushed commanders. They're so one-sided it's almost masturbatory. And I just don't want to have those sort of games.

That being said, I think it's probably more of a problem with the pilot than the deck itself. Sure, the commander is nuts, be it Golos, Tireless Pilgrim, Chulane, Teller of Tales or Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy, or others. But it takes a particular personality to bring that sort of deck, which typically by merit of having a pushed commander probably lies at about a solid 8-9 outside of cEDH, to a game against casual 6-7s. It speaks to the sort of person who cares more about their own fun than anyone elses and isn't willing to play on an even field. Either that or they genuinely don't see how asymmetrical they're making the game - it sounds strange, but there are people out there that this applies to.

I don't know how much longer the social contract issue can be bandied about, but that's where the wiggle room is. It's just such a struggle presenting the social contract issue to the sort of person mentioned above, and that's the problem; the people who know about the social contract thing already are not the people who need to be apprised of it, and the ones who don't aren't really interested.
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Post by darrenhabib » 3 years ago

We've (forums) talked about power creep especially about last years legendary creatures. I mean you just need to sneeze with Chulane, Korvold, Urza, Yawgmoth and you end up with half the deck in your hands and the other half on the battlefield.
At casual tables where you're relying on your commander instead of just playing it for the colours, this kind of disparity creates a huge barrier to being able to do anything. If I were to power up the maindeck (which I have done in the past to close the gap), I may never cast Adun, at which point, he's just kind of a figurehead.
I feel like the solution is still in the deck making. You've said that you talk with your group about play desire, and so voice the problem that you feel like you are behind the 8-ball when it comes to power level from the command zone.
The way to power up the deck and have a sense of commander matters, is that you design around that.
I would have a large dredge engine (Life from the Loam, Golgari Grave-Troll) and really look to have key creatures that you can return.
And these key creatures can be busted. The reason this should be acceptable by your play group is that between Adun ability and finding those creatures are a slower process, so your play group has plenty of time to react (as you pointed out removal happens often) and you've expressed the power gap within command zones.
What are some key creatures? If you can't beat em, join em. Maybe it is Korvold and Prossh and you back this up with Food Chain and Squee, the Immortal/Eternal Scourge.
Hermit Druid with a very low basic land count and Dread Return to bring back one of these as well.
I'm just postulating ideas at the moment, what the final solution is remains to be figured truly out, but hopefully you get the general thought process.
So you power up the deck, but your commander is still really important to the plan. The deck is not over-powered however because you are not simply looking to get half your combo from the command zone like you would if you have Korvold or Prossh as your commander. So if that makes sense, if you did, then playing a Food Chain combo would be totally unacceptable from your play group because it would be too easy to assemble.

If you want a solution, post your current deck list and the community can help design with the goal of evening the gap you seem to have on your game nights with the intention of making Adun function better.
Now of course the ideas in mind probably involve some expensive cards, so not sure how completely useful it'll be. But it won't harm to put the discussion out there as you've already posted a thread on this.

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Post by duducrash » 3 years ago

My favorite commander deck is Jori En, Ruin Diver I think it wasnt a powerfull commander ever, Ikoria has a second spell theme, it would be an okay card in that scenario. That being said I have a bunch of fun with it, and thats what matters the most. Without changing a single card I could make The Scarab God or a couple Niv Mizzets the commander and the deck would possibly be better. But thats not what I am after. I play the game to have fun, and the way I have fun is playing cards I enjoy the way I enjoy. I don't enjoy going infinite, I don't enjoy demolishing everyone, I also don't enjoy not being able to play if my commander isnt out on the field.


I'm not sure if I'm making my point understood. I'm not good with words and even worse in english. I think we should play to have fun, and sometimes its suboptimal cards.

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Post by RxPhantom » 3 years ago

I don't think I have much to offer when it comes to specifics, mainly because I think Adun kinda sucks from the jump. I do, however, understand the desire to play with older cards and generals. I have two commanders from the days of yore: Merieke Ri Berit and Lord of Tresserhorn. The former is still a force to be reckoned with, especially against decks that depend on creatures even a little bit. As for Tressy, I just really liked the challenge of getting the deck to work, especially given his drawback.

To the larger point of legendary creature design as of late, very seldom do new ones pique my interest. They just don't seem all that exciting to me, or they're so overwhelmingly self-synergistic that I'm bored to death. When I'm inclined to build a new deck, it's almost always because the commander itself just spoke to me. I can't quantify it; I just see it and know I want to build around it. In fact, the only new decks I've built in the last three years are Goreclaw, Terror of Qal Sisma and Yarok, the Desecrated (yeah yeah, sue me).
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Post by materpillar » 3 years ago

Sinis wrote:
3 years ago
Cards like Adun at this point in Magic's life are just kind of bad. Investing 3 mana in a creature with an insignificant body, hoping to untap, and then paying another 3 mana for a one mana effect (with the intent of it being repeatable, but it rarely turns out that way) is... it's painfully bad.

At casual tables where you're relying on your commander instead of just playing it for the colours, this kind of disparity creates a huge barrier to being able to do anything. If I were to power up the maindeck (which I have done in the past to close the gap), I may never cast Adun, at which point, he's just kind of a figurehead.

So, old folks and collectors... what do we do when faced with modern designs while wanting to play old parts of Magic's history?
Play your awesome, nostalgic old cards. If you really want to engineer a deck to make a terrible card feel overpowered it is really doable. That's my favorite thing to do in magic. You can't just haphazardly slot in old creatures and expect it to work out swimmingly though.

I'm still rocking my decade old Chromium EDH deck and she's been hilariously power creeped out of existence (lul Chromium, the Mutable). The deck was designed around equipping Chromium with Sword of Fire and Ice going to town. I still cast Chromium and she still kills people just as efficiently with three swords strapped to her as she did a decade ago (that is to say, very very inefficiently). I cast her slightly less, on average maybe 40-50% of the games I'm in instead of 80-90% but still a respectable percentage. If I can win a game with Chromium you can win a game with Adun Oakenshield.

It isn't going to be easy but it is very doable. I moved last year and hit a new game store up. The meta-game there is slightly spiky but not cEDH. My Chromium deck got blasted the first couple of times I played it (it's a mid-rangy artifact beatdown deck) but as I was getting blasted I was paying a bunch of attention to what the folks around me usually played and for their weaknesses. Turns out it was a lot of Eternal Witness-esque dredge abuse, ramp and glass cannon value based commanders. I cut the vast majority of my graveyard recursion engines and in went an additional 3 rest in peace effects. One of the players is addicted to Windfall and Time Spiral, so hello Narset, Parter of Veils and Notion Thief.

I'd blank a ton of their decks with Rest in Peace while forcing their commander tax way way up. When everyone has burned all their removal and has no value engine on the table to speak of down comes Chromium.


A lot of the older creatures don't provide the massive swings or value they used to compared to today's insanity. They need to be built around very differently. You can't just hard ramp into them, slam them down, and expect to win with them if it hits your upkeep with a massive train of cards like with Chulane, Teller of Tales or Korvold, Fae-Cursed King. You can't drop him turn 4 and fly ahead with insane mana value like with Zaxara, the Exemplary. You need to build your deck with the intent of killing Zaxara, the Exemplary until he costs 8 mana. Then, you play Adun Oakenshield and ride his sweet sweet recursion to victory.


I have a deck that unironically runs and wins with Eater of Days, Phage the Untouchable and Masticore (I'm really stoked to add in Phyrexian Devourer once I find one). You can make Adun Oakenshield work.
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darrenhabib wrote:
3 years ago
And these key creatures can be busted. The reason this should be acceptable by your play group is that between Adun ability and finding those creatures are a slower process, so your play group has plenty of time to react (as you pointed out removal happens often) and you've expressed the power gap within command zones.
...
I'm just postulating ideas at the moment, what the final solution is remains to be figured truly out, but hopefully you get the general thought process.
So you power up the deck, but your commander is still really important to the plan.
I find this amusing. I effectively said to just lean harder into control to maximize Adun Oakenshield. You said to lean in harder to combo. I'm very pleased that it appears that there's multiple threads to pluck at to make Adun Oakenshield be busted.

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Post by Sinis » 3 years ago

Thanks for the replies, everyone! I had another game last night with a different group, and Adun played fine in that one.

I think you're all mostly right; it's a matter of tuning some of the choices, and being a bit more merciless against things like Zaxara with my removal.

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Post by Treamayne » 3 years ago

I say play the Generals you like.

I still have Karn, Silver Golem, Xira Arien, Zuberi, Golden Feather, Lord of Tresserhorn, etc.

All for fun and fun for all...
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Post by Sinis » 3 years ago

If anyone's curious, the list has been posted for a while: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=29199

I think part of the problem is that it was intended to be low powered, and as my group adopted the latest hot-off-the-press technology from 2019 and 2020, this deck got buried. I'm going to look into making it more focused instead of being a bucket of dead guys.

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Post by 3drinks » 3 years ago

Relevancy; link to Trynn/Silvar old face in sig.

While the game will keep moving, growing, and becoming ever-more powerful, and this is especially true of commanders, you might consider doing something similar to what I've done. Imagine the bombtastic Jund cards back in the day, but led by, say, a Korvold or Karthus, or even Thantis. Or, flip it. You got your Oakenshield and that's clearly a bragging point to enter into a table, but then what if you build only from Origins on (when the newest card face entered)? You get the best of both worlds that way as you explore how old cards interact with newer ones and you get to experience some nostalgia. If you're at all like myself, you also get a deck with all the card faces match, but I'm sure only a few are that OCD about it.

At the end of the day however, you have to recognize that your old card isn't good. Not by today's standards, but as a whole, Adun Oakenshield was never a good card. Even in the day, you've got a three mana Squire and a three mana activated ability that replicates a one mana sorcery - one that hasn't ever really been playable since it's inception anyway. But you've been playing for as long as I have, you already knew that this was not going to be a strong card. And that's OK - after all we're not playing for money, right? And even if it was, this commander is still just one card, right? It's not making the deck revolve around it (I don't see how it could anyway).

It sounds like there's a cross between the deck's identity crisis, and a longing for something more powerful but nostalgic in the CZ. My suggestion would be to just discover what you want to do with the commander, and what you want this deck to do, then focus on building that and don't worry about what others are doing. When I played Adun back in...oh god, this had to be 2012, I played Jund Slivers. And it worked out just fine. Sometimes Adun would get activated when I was desperate for a play, sometimes when I needed a key card back, or often because Hivestone making it say Human Knight Sliver always made me laugh. You see what I'm saying though, I hope - I feel like I'm talking in circles here. Someone once had quoted in a signature that "you just have to stop worrying and love the bombs", in regards to this format. Let them do what they will. You do what you will. If they want to Ezuri's Predation into Warp World, that's fine - if you (re: me) want to Ruination and Manabarbs the table, then that's fine too. You just need to find this deck's calling, and just follow it to the fullest extent that you can.

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Post by schweinefett » 3 years ago

I'll just echo what most people have said here. I've a lord of tresserhorn "when this dies" tribal. And a rakdos the defiled suicide aggro deck. And a zedruu the voltron deck. None are competitive in the sense that they'd win tonnes, but they have their moments!
I'm sure there are better generals to be used than the ones I've chosen, but hey... they're cool and they fit the decks well.

I used to wanna tune my decks to the brim. but I've found that, Having sat on the other side, that they get really boring quickly. It's the same play patterns Over and over. And that's not what I want out of edh (at least for now).

I will say though, I tune my mana to the best of my ability. There's something about making sure I can curve my blood pet into a thalakos seer into elemental augery that feels good. I don't have to play the best payoff cards, but at least I will hit my colours more often than not.

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Post by motleyslayer » 3 years ago

my Sharuum the Hegemon deck is still my baby, even though Breya, Etherium Shaper is probably just better than Sharuum because red has more combos available to it.

I've had Sharuum for over 6 years and I slowly acquire foils for it, I'm pretty attached to it

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 3 years ago

New card design has unfortunately gone through a very big power push for their standard releases of late. I am glad to see them showing some level of restraint on the commander front of late though because if you ask me, some of the most outrageous power levels were actually some of the first commander products they released.

I don't know what to say though. There are still a number of really powerful old commanders. They exist but yes, the more medium ones are starting to show more so as the commander pool gets deeper. People tend to go to anything new as far as design goes so unfortunately seeing less Adun whom is more than $50 and more of the new shiny thing is just going to be natural.

I have also found that you will see more discrepancy on average if you are trying to make a proactive linear gameplan and less of an issue when trying to play a slower control strategy. Fast linear strategies have gotten much faster and better with newer cards but if your plan is Angus Mackenzie...... you can probably do that just fine still regardless of his insane price tag.
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Post by Sinis » 3 years ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
3 years ago
Fast linear strategies have gotten much faster and better with newer cards but if your plan is Angus Mackenzie...... you can probably do that just fine still regardless of his insane price tag.
I have an Angus Mackenzie; I think I'm going to build him as Persistent Petitioners, since Angus likes the same sorts of untap effects as the Petitioners, and the Petitioners aren't exactly well suited to combat without a lot of help.

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Post by 3drinks » 3 years ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
3 years ago
New card design has unfortunately gone through a very big power push for their standard releases of late.
I'm not entirely sure I agree with the spirit of this. New cards still aren't better than grim monolith, they still don't fetch answers as well as demonic tutour, and animate dead + worldgorger dragon is still an efficient two card combo, with the humble fireball a viable outlet for said mana that kills the table.

New cards are shiny and new, but I for one have no issues "keeping up" with my old pool - it's just more research for the right deck mix.

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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 3 years ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
3 years ago
New card design has unfortunately gone through a very big power push for their standard releases of late.
I think there's been a pardigm shift in design; old noncreature permanents and spells are much better than newer noncreature spells but newer creatures are waaaaaaay stronger on average than old ones. This does affect our format in a weird way considering the centrality of the legendary creature to deckbuilding, but hermit druid and thassa's oracle never needed a commmander to bust things in half anyway.

Personally, I'd rather eat a malignus to the face than stare down a mind's desire with storm count 4+. I'd rather slog it out against elder gargaroth and questing beast than try to survive an armageddon supported by brown-bordered fast mana.

Is the format faster and more consistent with WotC designing with edh in mind? Absolutely. But is it more fundamentally broken than it was 10 years ago? I don't think so. Necropotence was and is still legal, and if that's not the high water mark we're measuring by, then I don't even know what game you're playing.
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Post by ilovesaprolings » 3 years ago

New cards are more easily "broken" even by players who aren't trying. A Korvold will be more broken than a grim monolith in a casual list.

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