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[Gentle Giant]

Am I missing something about Lae'zel, Vlaakith's Champion ? What is the benefit of having multiples of the same keyword counter on a creature?

Aren't we going to be moving them around?

There aren't a whole lot of cards that do that nicely, or at least, it'll require us to devote deckspace to that too. Is it necessary to start moving counters around? Can't we just slide Kathril, Aspect Warper Feels like we're trying to do a lot of things at the same time

[RxPhantom]

Well, there is Hex Parasite and Kinsbaile Borderguard, which seem kinda neat.

[kirkusjones]

Am I missing something about Lae'zel, Vlaakith's Champion ? What is the benefit of having multiples of the same keyword counter on a creature?

Aren't we going to be moving them around?

There aren't a whole lot of cards that do that nicely, or at least, it'll require us to devote deckspace to that too. Is it necessary to start moving counters around? Can't we just slide Kathril, Aspect Warper Feels like we're trying to do a lot of things at the same time

I agree. Sliding Kathril should be the move. Outlets for eating/moving counters seem inefficient/low profit. I'm not sure we're really doing too much. We're sliding Kathril and providing graveyard fodder with an itsy-bitsy reanimation package (maybe). Eerie Ultimatum has been discussed as a plan B and we've talked hatebears, but so far only Yasharn has been proposed.

Regardless, Slippery Bogbonder seems like a strong choice, even if it's just shifting Kathril's +1/+1 counters somewhere else in response to removal and giving hexproof. If Lae'zel, Vlaakith's Champion brought a relevant keyword to the party, I'd be more receptive.

[RxPhantom]

Alright. I semi-reluctantly switch my vote on Lae'zel, Vlaakith's Champion from yay to nay.

[Henlock]

Am I missing something about Lae'zel, Vlaakith's Champion ? What is the benefit of having multiples of the same keyword counter on a creature?

It doubles (and +1) the +1/+1 counters on kathril and counters accumulate every time Resourceful Defense moves them.

Kathril with Zetalpa in graveyard and Lezel on the battlefield can enter as a 14/14 with all of Zetalpa abilities.

I'll yay Sigarda.

I still think Dhalsim, Pliable Pacifist grants hexproof. Not that I am.dying to nominate it, but acording to Muraganda Petroglyphs gatherer ruling:

If an effect says that an affected creature "has" or "gains" an ability, Muraganda Petroglyphs won't apply to that creature because it has gained an ability. If an effect simply says that something is true of an affected creature (such as "target creature can't be blocked this turn") then that effect isn't causing the creature to gain an ability.

[Dunharrow]

@3drinks when you put up the tallies, can you make it so that I can read what the cards do? I know some of them, but definitely not all of them.

I will throw in a Yea for Oketra and for Vile Entomber
Nay on Rogue's passage, I think we will have plenty of evasion.

[Gentle Giant]

Am I missing something about Lae'zel, Vlaakith's Champion ? What is the benefit of having multiples of the same keyword counter on a creature?

It doubles (and +1) the +1/+1 counters on kathril and counters accumulate every time Resourceful Defense moves them.

Kathril with Zetalpa in graveyard and Lezel on the battlefield can enter as a 14/14 with all of Zetalpa abilities.

I'll yay Sigarda.

I still think Dhalsim, Pliable Pacifist grants hexproof. Not that I am.dying to nominate it, but acording to Muraganda Petroglyphs gatherer ruling:

If an effect says that an affected creature "has" or "gains" an ability, Muraganda Petroglyphs won't apply to that creature because it has gained an ability. If an effect simply says that something is true of an affected creature (such as "target creature can't be blocked this turn") then that effect isn't causing the creature to gain an ability.

I think it's a bit too optimistic to include a card which only really shines with another card in the 99 and not really adding value otherwise.

Concerning Dhalsim, this is what I could find in a Google search:
112.6. Abilities of an instant or sorcery spell usually function only while that object is on the stack. Abilities of all other objects usually function only while that object is on the battlefield. The exceptions are as follows:

112.6a Characteristic-defining abilities function everywhere, even outside the game. (See rule 604.3.)

112.6b-n [Can be summarized as "Abilities that must obviously function in other zones only function in those zones."]

Found it in a discussion about cairn wanderer, so I don't think it works for Kathril either. I haven't looked up the b thru n exceptions, but given that the poster summarised them for a similar discussion, I take it Dhalsim doesn't fit either.

[Henlock]

On Laezel, I think any card that can put our commander on lethal while being within our gameplan is worth considering, that's why I nominated it. We already have Resourceful Defense in.

On.Dhalsim,.only thing I found is this. from keyword ability rulings:

702.1d An effect may refer to an object "with [keyword ability]" or "that has [keyword ability]." This means the same thing as an object "with a [keyword ability] ability" or an object "that has a [keyword ability] ability."[/card]

[Ertai Planeswalker]

Yay to Oketra, Sigarda and Vile Entomber.

I will state the obvious and propose Odric, Lunarch Marshal. Also, as I'm driving home from holiday all day tomorrow I would also like to propose Sylvan Caryatid in advance as it ramps, fixes mana and has a relevant keyword.

[3drinks]

Noted. I will update tallies when I'm home from work since it's easier to cardtag on my laptop than from mobile.

[RxPhantom]

Dhalsim, Pliable Pacifist has an ability that grants it hexproof under certain conditions. It does not have hexproof. For instance, you wouldn't be able to tutor up Dhalsim with Mwonvuli Beast Tracker.

@Henlock, Lae'zel, Vlaakith's Champion won't double Kathril's +1/+1 counters. She'll put an additional one on only.

[Henlock]

Dhalsim, Pliable Pacifist has an ability that grants it hexproof under certain conditions. It does not have hexproof. For instance, you wouldn't be able to tutor up Dhalsim with Mwonvuli Beast Tracker.

@Henlock, Lae'zel, Vlaakith's Champion won't double Kathril's +1/+1 counters. She'll put an additional one on only.

It will double the ability counters put on each creature through its replacememt ability, then when Kathril checks the number of countrrs put this way for its +1/+1 counters will see two counters being put this way for each ability. We will end up with creatures with two flying, hexproof, reach, etc counters. and Kathrill with double the counters plus ansn additional 1

[RxPhantom]

Dhalsim, Pliable Pacifist has an ability that grants it hexproof under certain conditions. It does not have hexproof. For instance, you wouldn't be able to tutor up Dhalsim with Mwonvuli Beast Tracker.

@Henlock, Lae'zel, Vlaakith's Champion won't double Kathril's +1/+1 counters. She'll put an additional one on only.

It will double the ability counters put on each creature through its replacememt ability, then when Kathril checks the number of countrrs put this way for its +1/+1 counters will see two counters being put this way for each ability. We will end up with creatures with two flying, hexproof, reach, etc counters. and Kathrill with double the counters plus ansn additional 1

My shame...it is vast and plentiful. I'm sorry.

I reverse my reversal. Yay on Lae'zel.

[Legend]

.
Nay on Eerie Ultimatum because I think that it brings back too much when I think some creatures need to stay in the graveyard.

It seems like this got yeeted due to misunderstanding. Oh well.

Lae'zel, Vlaakith's Champion Yay. An affordable alternative to Doubling Season, which I hear is good.
Odric, Lunarch Marshal Yay. Helpful when going wide.
Sylvan Caryatid Yay. Ramp, chump block, hexproof. Great find.
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord Nay. Seems to be heading in a different direction than discussed.

Oketra the True & Sigarda, Host of Herons Yay. Great abilities and decent cards in their own rights. Just what we want.

Vile Entomber Yay. Deathtouch plus Entomb. Excellent synergy.

Scryb Ranger Nay. Too weak.

I suggest The Ozolith. Good in general and could get crazy with the Astral enchantments.

[kirkusjones]

Jarad's probably been nay'd out at this point, but it synergizes with our current gameplan (having a yard full of critters) and allows us to drain the table for a whole lot of life with a fat Kathril. In a pinch, it's a sac outlet in the face of removal/theft. We all have different ideas of what fits with the plan and what doesn't, and that's okay.

EDIT - Y'all have convinced me on Lae'zel, Vlaakith's Champion. Put me down for a yea.

[3drinks]

We got a ton of updates here, First of which, because I noticed Eerie Ultimatum hit a 3-3 split in back to back posts, and I suspect people voted against it erroneously, I'm gonna let us decide why/why not it makes the deck, given the reason it was voted against in the first place was a misunderstanding in it's text.

As a reminder, remember we can't vote on sylvan caryatid yet as that was an early submission by a user unable to get to the computer tomorrow due to travel.

I'm going to nay Sunblade Angel because it doesn't do anything except get pitched into the yard. And as we already have both Whitekroma and Zetalpa to do that job better, I don't think we need a dumb six drop that's third at best in class.

I'm going to yay Jarad anyway, because sac outlets are important and he is a recurrable threat. I think I can yay Odric too, as well as The Ozolith for obvious reasons.

I think I'm with Scryb Ranger too. Untapping for free is a really, really under rated ability and it still provides an ability in the yard.

Eerie Ultimatum yay - 3 nay - 3
Oketra, the True yay - 7 nay - 0
Lae'zel, Vlaakith's Champion yay - 4 nay - 1
Rogue's Passage yay - 0 nay - 2
Scryb Ranger yay - 2 nay - 1
Sigarda, Host of Herons yay - 6 nay - 0
Vile Entomber yay - 5 nay - 0
Sunblade Angel yay - 1 nay - 1
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord yay - 1 nay - 1
Odric, Lunarch Marshal yay - 2 nay - 0
Sylvan Caryatid (can't vote until tomorrow) yay - 0 nay - 0
The Ozolith yay - 1 nay - 0

[Dunharrow]

I will Yea Scryb Ranger because it can bounce a Indatha Triome or a Scattered Groves to be cycled for an Astral enchantment
Nay Sunblade Angel
Yay Ozolith
Yea Odric, makes sense in this deck

Nay Jarad. I love Jarad, and sac outlets, but Jarad likes quantity over quality. This deck is happy to put Zetalpa in the yard and have it be enough. The inclusion of Yasharn, Implacable Earth also really makes me hate sac outlets. For me the only reason to play sac outlets in this deck is if you want to be using it as an alternative to flickering with the Slides. I would prefer a sac outlet + recursion strategy over hatebears, but since we are playing hatebears I think it's too much to have a sac + recursion subtheme too. Honestly, Stonecloaker makes more sense in this deck if we are just using sac to protect creatures from theft/exile. But I won't submit that because I think it's very narrow. We have a lot of redundancy and hatebears, we do not need sac outlets unless it is a core part of the deck.


I want to submit Stinkweed Imp. Dredge 5 is strong in this type of deck. I assume we will have ways to discard Akromas and Zetalpa, so this works well with discard. Also works well with Cycling to dredge multiple times per turn. And it has flying.
Unfortunately, no deathtouch.

[Crazy Monkey]

We got a ton of updates here, First of which, because I noticed Eerie Ultimatum hit a 3-3 split in back to back posts, and I suspect people voted against it erroneously, I'm gonna let us decide why/why not it makes the deck, given the reason it was voted against in the first place was a misunderstanding in it's text.
Eerie Ultimatum yay - 3 nay - 3

I definitely misread. Please reverse my nay to yea here. It's a good curve topper.

Yea Odric, Lunarch Marshal and Sunblade Angel. Keyword soup is a significant portion of the deck. That said, I don't want to add too many ability enablers that don't have multiple functions.
Yea The Ozolith for token storage and more flicker token stacking.
Yea Stinkweed Imp because dredge is potent and keywords are good.
Yea on Scryb Ranger, I like the idea of using it to pick back up cycling lands. Either just the triome or with something to enable the forest land type.

Nay Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord, I am fine with some sacrifice abilities because we won't have Yasharn, Implacable Earth every game. That said, I don't know that we'll have large enough creatures to mulch people's life totals efficiently here.

I'm going to nominate Valentin, Dean of the Vein next. It's a low MV creature which shuts off most dies triggers and graveyard loops while also having 2 keywords that fill in the gaps for our other keyword soup creatures. There were some other options for similar keywords, but the MV is what solid it for me.

[Gentle Giant]

Rogue's Passage yay: some evasion for clogged boards seems quite useful to me, especially with a souped up Kathril.
Scryb Ranger yay: returning cycling lands is a really cool synergy.
Sunblade Angel kinda torn, it really depends on how we choose to fill the yard. If we're using buried alive et al., then this card feels a bit underwhelming in terms of usefulness outside of its keywords.
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord yay: saccing our Kathril for massive damage seems like a solid play. Jarad himself might remain small, but his sac ability is strong. If he doesn't make it that's fine too.
Odric, Lunarch Marshal yay, just a solid card for this deck
Sylvan Caryatid (can't vote until tomorrow) yay (it's tomorrow where I live )
The Ozolith yay! No comment necessary.

I also yay Dunharrow's Putrid Imp and Crazy Monkey's Valentin, Dean of the Vein // Lisette, Dean of the Root. Dredge is what we want and Valentin is an amazing find for this deck!

I'm pondering about our hate bear package (as that's not something I'm all too familiar with): we will be drawing extra cards and searching our library too often to shut those things down (imo), same goes for etb-effects. Kunoros, Hound of Athreos is my proposal. Yes, it shuts off our own creature-related graveyard shenanigans, but it has a lot of keywords and shutting off others' graveyards is strong too. I'm really warming up to the slide-side of this deck in combination with hatebears, as it allows us to turn them off on our own turn

[RedCheese]

Rogue's Passage : Yay. Its a land so is not an issue of an inclusion and more evasion doesn't hurt
Scryb Ranger : Nay. I don't know about this tbh. Seems so narrow in applications
Sunblade Angel : Also torn. If it had 1 more keyword i would nominate it, I'll go with nay for now
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord : Nay. I love him Jarad, but hes definitly in a different stratergy and i don't think our commander will be that big to worth the inclusion of Jarad's sac ability.
Odric, Lunarch Marshal : Yay. Keywords for EVERYONE
Sylvan Caryatid : Yay. Mana dork with an useful jeyword. Great inclusion
The Ozolith : Yay. Very important to stock up on those counters.
Putrid Imp ; Yay. Cheap discard outlet to get rid of bricks like the giant keyword creatures stuck in our hand.
Kunoros, Hound of Atheros ; Yay. Hatebear with keywords lets go.

What about the Astral Slide plan? Will the cycling lands be enough to make it worthwhile? Going to nominate Titanoth Rex in case then

[3drinks]

Lots of confirmations here.

I'm gonna yay both Caryatid and and the stinkweed imp that people have been misreading as putrid imp the last couple posts for the confirm. I'm taking the assumption that people would have voted as such anyway, and it ties into my suggestion today.

Right, I yay'd Kunoros and Valentin as well.

I'm going to nay titanoth rex because it was already said these kinds of effects would get nay'd if astral slide made the cut.

Today's card needs no introduction; Golgari Grave-Troll. I really wanted to suggest Wurmcoil Engine but I'm trying to get away from playing 6mvtribal.dek.

Rogue's Passage yay - 2 nay - 2
Titanoth Rex yay - 0 nay - 1
Golgari Grave-Troll yay - 0 nay - 0

Scryb Ranger yay - 5 nay - 2
Sunblade Angel yay - 2 nay - 4
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord yay - 2 nay - 4
Odric, Lunarch Marshal yay - 4 nay - 0
Sylvan Caryatid yay - 3 nay - 0
The Ozolith yay - 5 nay - 0
Stinkweed Imp yay - 3 nay - 0
Valentin, Dean of the Vein yay - 3 nay - 0
Kunoros, Hound of Athreos yay - 3 nay - 0

[kirkusjones]

Yea to the grave troll. My nomination for today is Fauna Shaman. While it's a much slower version of Survival of the Fittest, it allows us to bin keywords and tutor hatebears/utility creatures.

[3drinks]

It's also a much cheaper version of Survival of the Fittest.

Rogue's Passage yay - 2 nay - 2
Titanoth Rex yay - 0 nay - 1
Golgari Grave-Troll yay - 1 nay - 0
Fauna Shaman yay - 0 nay - 0

[Gentle Giant]

Oops, my bad about the smelly imps, I meant stinkweed of course.
Yay to Golgari Grave-Troll and Fauna Shaman : both do exactly what we want.

EDIT: While I agree we need to take a look at how many cyclers we want, I'm not sure we want Titanoth Rex per se. It kinda depends on how badly we want big fatties to reanimate too. If so, I like it, otherwise I'd rather play some cards like Sylvan Reclamation.

[Crazy Monkey]

Yea Fauna Shaman and Golgari Grave-Troll Discard and mill enablers sound very good here.

Yea on Titanoth Rex. We've dedicated two slots and a subtheme to cycling as a source of more counters. I would usually play 15 to 25 cards that enable those engines. With Life from the Loam and cycling lands, I feel confident that the minimum other cards can be run. In my mind, this still leaves 5 cycling creatures, ideally 5 with different abilities. We have flying, so added a cycling card for trample fits to me. The Rex has some minor upside.

I guess the idea that the other 5 are creatures is a preconceived notions, so if we can fit those cycling cards into interaction slots, I am also on board with that.