Unreleased and New Card Discussion

[Hermes_]

Anyone else disappointed that there seems to be so vanishingly little synergy between the old Kamigawa block and the new set? It's ninjutsu and a scattering of individual cards that don't actually fill any needed niche, and the aesthetics of the ninjas between the two clash horribly. I dunno, maybe I'm just too attached to nostalgia, but this set just feels so subtly wrong to me on so many levels, and it's killed any possible enthusiasm I could have had for a return to Kamigawa.

I think for you it's part nostalgia part and not really needing anything. To me, it seems like you might have expected Kamigawa to stay as it was when the original set was released (wow, I looked at the original's release and it was the year I graduated high school in 2004). Right now I'm looking at Cloudsteel Kirin,Mechtitan Core, Lizard Blades.

For better or worse when it comes to futuristic Japanese-inspired settings cyberpunk is part of it unless you deliberately avoid it by going down the Medieval Stasis route. (So, you have a Heroic Fantasy with a long history in order to account for the fact that the Sealed Evil in a Can has been forgotten. You fast forward about five thousand years and reveal a world… exactly like the one you started in! Same kinds of tools and devices, the same form of government, same language, same culture—you wouldn't even need to dress differently to fit right in.

Medieval Stasis is a situation in which, as far as the technological, cultural, and sociopolitical level are concerned, thousands of years pass as if they were minutes.)

[Jemolk]

@Hermes_ -- I mean, I'd be fine if it were just set in the past again, like last time. And it's not like it had to stay exactly the same, either -- I just wish there was more of a sense of continuity than there is. That's one of the major problems with massive, multi-millennium timeskips in stories like this, IMHO. But even lacking thematic consistency, mechanical consistency would be greatly appreciated. Arcane was probably a bit much to hope for, but at least a few spirit synergies would have been nice, you know?

[kirkusjones]

@Hermes_ -- I mean, I'd be fine if it were just set in the past again, like last time. And it's not like it had to stay exactly the same, either -- I just wish there was more of a sense of continuity than there is. That's one of the major problems with massive, multi-millennium timeskips in stories like this, IMHO. But even lacking thematic consistency, mechanical consistency would be greatly appreciated. Arcane was probably a bit much to hope for, but at least a few spirit synergies would have been nice, you know?

If we hadn't just returned to Innistrad, you might have had a better shot at seeing more Spirit-y stuff on this visit to Kamigawa.

[BeneTleilax]

I'd rather worlds evolve. Trying to make every return a rehash of the original is what gave us Return to Ravnica and Zendikar Resurgent, two of the worst sets for creative.

I am frustrated in the lack of mechanical synergies with original Kamigawa, especially after they bent over backwards to try and make the Innistrad revisits backwards compatible. The way I see it, they aren't really designing sets for Standard anymore, because then Channel would be backed up with some discard support so it could work with Blood decks, and there would be more spirit support in White and/or Blue, etc. If they want to design for EDH, they should at least tie the new mechanical archetypes back to their originals where possible. It feels like they're using the tension between the two, and the end of blocks, to design every set as though it were a standalone.

On the whole, though, this set looks real good. A bunch of solid effects in White, high pip counts on staples so they don't all go in 5C goodstuff, some solid (but not obnoxious) legends.

[Hawk]

I suspect WotC is extreme correcting (only time will tell if we're over-correcting) on the parasitism of OG Kamigawa:

- Because Samurai and Ninja can't be printed in just any old set, they're making sure all the new ones also synergize with Warriors and Rogues which appear in droves every set.

- To prevent the pasts' problems, they aren't printing any new Arcane spells - which makes sense from a "make this set play well with Standard and Historic" perspective, but is of course very sad for anyone who wanted new adds to their Arcane or Spiritcraft decks.

- "Enchantments and Artifacts Matter" has very little synergy with OG Kamigawa minus a few one-off cards like Tallowisp, but it's a clean way to do "Modern versus Tradition" and every set prints more enchantments and artifacts.

- So overall, the only continuity we're going to get are that Shrines are in the set and that there are lots of Spirits, Snakes, and Rats for folks who love those tribes specifically because of Kamigawa. Given how disastrous most of Kamigawa's mechanics polled, that makes sense to me even if I too weep that I won't get new tools to make some sort of durdly Tallowisp + Waxmane Baku spiritcraft spam deck any more powerful or useful in EDH.

[Hermes_]

Well, i did something i had never done before I ordered the cards I want.

[RowanKeltizar]

Well, i did something i had never done before I ordered the cards I want.

Well, congrats, although I hope you didn't order anything expensive from an unreleased set!

Kamigawa was definitely one of my favorite sets flavor wise even though I wasn't playing during release. I am just happy we are getting anything at all in terms of a revisit. Gives me hope for Lorwyn or Alara.

I personally appreciate the re-imagining. It's also worth pointing out that I think we only have about a third of the set spoiled right now. We may get some new goodies.

I think the only thing that would make this set complete for me is reprints of things like Nature's Will Sensei's Divining Top Forbidden Orchard Uba Mask Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni or Oboro, Palace in the Clouds as bonus type cards outside of the main set in collectors packs or something. So many of those cards are in dire need of a reprint in some form. I would even be happy with the new showcase frames for these.

[Hermes_]

Well, i did something i had never done before I ordered the cards I want.

Well, congrats, although I hope you didn't order anything expensive from an unreleased set!

My pre-order total was 14 due to getting some of them foiled or the showcase ,I just ordered

• Cloudsteel Kirin
• Light-Paws, Emperor's Voice
• Lizard Blades
• Mechtitan Core

[Serenade]

The alternate Lizard Blades art is adorable.

[Serenade]

Sorry for the double post, but all I want to do is Curse of the Swine or Heliod's Intervention with Hinata, the Dawn's Crown.


Probably pairing HI with Enchanted Evening.

[Crazy Monkey]

Sorry for the double post, but all I want to do is Curse of the Swine or Heliod's Intervention with Hinata, the Dawn's Crown.

I want to add Sakashima of a Thousand Faces and Comet Storm for unnecessary levels of cost reduction.

[Mookie]

Speaking as a person that didn't play during the original Kamigawa block, I'm largely content with this revisit. It isn't a plane I have a strong attachment to, and they have hit most of the things I would want from a revisit - more specifically, ninjas and callbacks to the more iconic legends like Azusa, Lost but Seeking and Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker. Beyond those things, I don't have much attachment to many other things the original block - most of the mechanics were... pretty bad, and incredibly parasitic.

...of course, I've also been following the discussion on Maro's blog for ages, so a lot of these changes I saw coming. There are a few things I would have liked to see - legendary matters, spirit tribal synergies, and arcane - but I also don't consider them to be key to Kamigawa mechanically. Honestly, with how pushed things are for EDH these days, I'm sort of thankful we don't have a legendary subtheme in the new set - quarantine that to Commander Legends and leave the rest of the sets alone, plzkthx.

Anyway....

• Hinata, the Dawn's Crown looks amusing. Meteor Blast tribal? Crackle with Power?
• Nashi, Moon Sage's Scion is the obligatory 'WotC plz no more free spells' card of the set. Random + life cost makes it pretty high variance though, so probably fine. Seems like an amusing alternative to Gonti, Lord of Luxury if you want to play with your opponents' stuff.
• Reckoner Bankbuster is amusing. I don't think it's better than Mazemind Tome, but it is an interesting alternative if you want to be able to attack with it.
• Cloudsteel Kirin is sweet. Turns any creature into Platinum Angel, which I'm sure will be used for shenanigans. Otherwise seems pretty fair.

[Wallycaine]

I suspect WotC is extreme correcting (only time will tell if we're over-correcting) on the parasitism of OG Kamigawa:

- Because Samurai and Ninja can't be printed in just any old set, they're making sure all the new ones also synergize with Warriors and Rogues which appear in droves every set.

- To prevent the pasts' problems, they aren't printing any new Arcane spells - which makes sense from a "make this set play well with Standard and Historic" perspective, but is of course very sad for anyone who wanted new adds to their Arcane or Spiritcraft decks.

- "Enchantments and Artifacts Matter" has very little synergy with OG Kamigawa minus a few one-off cards like Tallowisp, but it's a clean way to do "Modern versus Tradition" and every set prints more enchantments and artifacts.

- So overall, the only continuity we're going to get are that Shrines are in the set and that there are lots of Spirits, Snakes, and Rats for folks who love those tribes specifically because of Kamigawa. Given how disastrous most of Kamigawa's mechanics polled, that makes sense to me even if I too weep that I won't get new tools to make some sort of durdly Tallowisp + Waxmane Baku spiritcraft spam deck any more powerful or useful in EDH.

You hit the nail on the head fairly well. Mark's article goes into more detail, but they basically looked at all the Mechanics of the original Kamigawa and said "yeah, none of this is salvageable other than Channel and Ninjutsu" (and even Channel got called out as a mechanic they'd typically make a more restricted version of, but the limited options meant it was the best of the bunch). For Arcane specifically, they don't include non-creature subtypes unless they matter mechanically, and there wasn't a good mechanic to make use of Arcane that fit into the set.

[BeneTleilax]

they don't include non-creature subtypes unless they matter mechanically, and there wasn't a good mechanic to make use of Arcane that fit into the set.

That was an interesting caveat though, as previously they've said they wouldn't use instant and sorcery subtypes at all. I wonder if they've got plans for a new subtype that is mechanically relevant.

Also, Hinata seems like a decent general for the Feather+Orvar deck.

Also also, Isshin is a bit boring, but a solid Mardu samurai general, and Mardu combat general overall. Could get obnoxious with extra combats though.

[5colorsrainbow]

And the fact is OG Kamigawa for many reason, both in mechanics AND cards, was a failure. Originally this set was just gonna be a cyberpunk set until they talked on having a traditional vs modern themed and the Kamigawa fans in wotc was able to reason that Kamigawa should be the plane to help reflect that. As Mookie said, for years on Maro's blog he talked on that the debate over Kamigawa was, as it was a flop, they couldn't really sell a return unless they gave it a new mechanical identity and a new flavor rework. And here we are are, a return to Kamigawa now with a mew mechanical identity of tradion vs modern with half the plane reflavored with cyberpunk.

I am frustrated in the lack of mechanical synergies with original Kamigawa, especially after they bent over backwards to try and make the Innistrad revisits backwards compatible.

Yeah cause Innistrad was a success while OG Kamigawa seemed un-returnable.

The way I see it, they aren't really designing sets for Standard anymore, because then Channel would be backed up with some discard support so it could work with Blood decks, and there would be more spirit support in White and/or Blue, etc.

This seems like a rather shallow evaluation. Channel supports the graveyard decks in Innistrad and is even gonna be UG which works rather well with the self-mill/flashback deck they had with Innistrad, the samurai and ninja tribal being backward working with the warrior and rogue decks, the artifact theme working with Strixhaven and likely The Brothers War, Kaldheim having the small vehicle and equipment theme that works with modify, the equipment creatures and vehicles, Innistrad having the minor enchantment theme with the spirits which, ect. Lot of stuff that meshes with other sets in standard currently.

[kirkusjones]

TEZZERET! I HAVE THE HIGH GROUND!

[BeneTleilax]

Yeah cause Innistrad was a success while OG Kamigawa seemed un-returnable.

That makes sense from a very superficial, repeat what's profitable, standpoint, but neglects the fact that many of the people that wanted this set to exist have decks based on original Kamigawa, and were looking for new cards for those. You don't need to repeat the mistakes of the past to consider backwards compatibility.

the artifact theme working with Strixhaven

That didn't exist. There are two cards (Galazeth and Storm Kiln Artisan) from that set that care about artifacts.

Innistrad having the minor enchantment theme with the spirits which

Which would have been a perfect theme to bring forwards, given that Neon Dynasty has both themes, but very few of the enchantment-matters cards here are spirits, and those that are are mostly green.

Channel supports the graveyard decks in Innistrad and is even gonna be UG which works rather well with the self-mill/flashback deck

Channel doesn't work with either self-mill or flashback, so I'm not sure what you're getting at.

[Mookie]

Discover the Impossible looks quite nice - a bigger Impulse that you can dig up Counterspell with. I like it.

It's somewhat interesting to compare Isshin, Two Heavens as One to Wulfgar of Icewind Dale. Isshin also triggers off opponents' creatures attacking, which makes him somewhat amusing with Revenge of Ravens effects. Beyond that... there are plenty of powerful attack triggers to copy. Passes the Sun Titan test on multiple levels!

[duducrash]

Discover the Impossible is a good card and I will play it in Veyran, Voice of Duality I guess. Upside is 2 casts triggers with the worst case scenario being a draw 1.

Reforged Ronin[card] I think its modern playable. Great early game that replaces itself in the later!

[card]Isshin, Two Heavens as One seems easily breakable. Weird seeing the ability going from Gruul with Wulfgar to mardu

[ZenN]

Isshin, Two Heavens as One seems easily breakable. Weird seeing the ability going from Gruul with Wulfgar to mardu

It's actually an even better ability than Wulfgar of Icewind Dale, because Isshin, Two Heavens as One doubles your triggers from opponents attacking as well, so for example something like Blood Reckoning would double trigger, which is beautiful.

Isshin is the first new legend in a while to get me kind of excited. My very first thought when I saw him was Hero of Bladehold. Time to brew, methinks.

EDIT: Oh yeah, Annihilator is a triggered ability on attack... Oh boy.

[Hermes_]

Isshin, Two Heavens as One almost makes me wanna dip into black for a voltron build.....all them swords of x and y

[materpillar]

Isshin, Two Heavens as One almost makes me wanna dip into black for a voltron build.....all them swords of x and y

X&Y trigger of player damage not attacking so I don't believe this works unfortunately

[Serenade]

I never completed a Jolrael, Mwonvuli Recluse enchantress deck. Maybe I'll revive it with Shigeki, Jukai Visionary, who might end up being too slow or too mana-intensive….but I still love the idea of this guy slithering from zone to zone.

Every few sets now we get interesting 2cmc enchantment matter critters. (I also am thinking of Weaver of Harmony in NEO.) I love it.

[Hermes_]

Isshin, Two Heavens as One almost makes me wanna dip into black for a voltron build.....all them swords of x and y

X&Y trigger of player damage not attacking so I don't believe this works unfortunately

You're right not sure what I was thinking

[Mookie]

Yeah, Shigeki, Jukai Visionary looks quite fun. I like the idea of Frontier Guide, but four mana is a bit too much to use repeatedly. Shigeki is also four mana to use repeatedly, but being split up over two payments should make it easier to squeeze in activations. Cheaper overall too - four mana total for the first activation instead of six. Plus, a ton of additional value from filling the graveyard and providing a mana sink / recursion effect in the lategame to make use of all the ramp and dredging. I'm definitely going to give it a shot. Fetching non-permanent cards is quite nice too - I feel like a lot of green's recent big recursion effects only get permanents.