Where do you stand on graveyard hate?

[Dunharrow]

I feel like the use of GY hate has gone down a bit over the last few years. Except a few specific decks I own, most of my decks are only playing Scavenger Grounds for GY hate.

I guess that my outlook is that I want to be able to slow down a GY deck, but I do not want to hate them out of the game. So most of my hate is limited.

I do not run Rest in Peace. I play Leyline of the Void in one deck. I just don't often feel like I want such narrow cards... and I do not like the sensation when a GY deck is hated out of the game. So when I do want a bit of GY hate it is usually Scavenger Grounds, then Relic of Progenitus. I could see running Ashiok, Dream Render.

[materpillar]

Landfall decks tend to be addicted to Crucible of Worlds. Dredge-style decks slip and slide around removal. Living Death is a common aristocrats win condition. Simic loves casting Cyclonic Rift multiple times with Eternal Witness and friends. Reanimation decks pop up with their Buried Alive combos. All those specific strategies aside and graveyard recursion loops are still the most common late game value engines that I stumble across.

I tend to run a handful of graveyard hate cards including narrow stuff like Rest in Peace and rarely feel bad about drawing it. I find myself playing against way more Chainer, Dementia Master and his Eldrazi friends than I do fun times flashback tribal.

[Candlemane]

Ugh. Eldrazi. I wish they had never printed them. Sick of seeing them myself.

Anyway more on topic I try to run some kind of hate for yards, especially if I'm playing W or B (or Rakdos charm in everything BR). Things with U I have a hard time, and G doesn't have much. Luckily there are artifacts that fit in okay everywhere.

[Mookie]

I run at least a bit of grave hate in all my decks. Not a ton - usually just 1-2 pieces - but it depends a bit on how high of an opportunity cost it is to include, and how well it fits into my gameplan. A lot of my own decks are pretty heavy on recursion and graveyard stuff, which means I usually avoid playing stuff like Scavenger Grounds and Relic of Progenitus, but Nihil Spellbomb and Scavenging Ooze are pretty solid.

That said, I have noticed myself playing a bit less grave hate recently. One reason is that it feels like there has been less of graveyard focus in my meta, but the other reason is I've been running more cards like Diluvian Primordial that run off of my opponents' graveyards. I'll also call out that depending on what grave hate you're running, it may or may not actually be effective against what your opponents are doing - Scavenger Grounds lines up great against a one-shot effect like Living Death, but much worse against an incremental effect like Crucible of Worlds. Meanwhile, Leyline of the Void is fantastic against everything if you can get it down early, but much worse if you draw it late and have to cast it for four mana.

[Serenade]

I think I've been running less...because I've been running more cards that use my GY (Underworld Breach, Eerie Ultimatum, Dance of the Manse, Finale of Devastation).

[pokken]

I always have a couple pieces and I really prefer targeted narrow stuff like Scavenging Ooze and Stonecloaker. It's usually enough to get it done and it's more fun.

I also look for excuses to run Rest in Peace and Leyline of the Void - replacement effects being the surest way to bork stuff - but I prefer it if there's a combo involved (e.g. helm).

[Toshi]

I think no deck of mine runs less than 2 ways to deal with (opposing) graveyards, but rarely more.

I like my own solutions to somewhat fit the deck they're in, like Stream of Consciousness in Talrand, Sky Summoner, Kaya's Guile in Kambal, Consul of Allocation, Angel of Finality in Archangel Avacyn // Avacyn, the Purifier or Loaming Shaman in Mirri, Weatherlight Duelist.

Overall i'd say Soul-Guide Lantern is one of the absolute best uncommons we've seen in a long time and likely the best graveyard hate card you could run anywhere.
As far as lands go, i shy away from Scavenger Grounds unless i'm in really akward colors. Going down a land and still virtually paying ? Phew.
Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus have been around since forever, but i rarely seen the them anymore. Just like with board wipes, my meta shifted away from including 4+ of them, with games going on for 2-3 hours battling through them. Now, we're down to 1-3 of each, with games going between 45 minutes and 1,5 hours and no feeling of too few interaction.

[Dunharrow]

Anybody averaging 4 or more pieces of GY hate per deck?

We talk about redundancy in EDH. So unless we have tutors (like land tutors for Scavenger Grounds), playing 1 or 2 GY hate cards are unlikely to do much.

I can see running one or two hate cards when you have a bunch of tutors for them... but what about decks that do not have tutors. Is it still worth running one or two cards? Or is it like me with Relic of Progenitus - it's a cantrip for the early game with the upside of sometimes overperforming.

[toctheyounger]

I think it's worth running if you can squeeze it in. Soul-Guide Lantern is my favourite option. For a very low cost it comes with a lot of utility and replaces itself in hand.

Otherwise, favourites of mine are Agent of Erebos, Loaming Shaman, Hallowed Moonlight and Scrabbling Claws. There's more or less options in a lot of archetypes now, so if it's in your meta it ought to at least be a consideration.

[ilovesaprolings]

I only play graveyard hate if it's synergic with my deck, like for example Deathgorge Scavenger in Gishath. I would never play something like Tormod's Crypt, Relic of Progenitus or Scavenger Grounds

[pokken]

Anybody averaging 4 or more pieces of GY hate per deck?

Remember that if there're 3 people and you're all running 2 pieces you're pretty likely to see one in a game between you (especially if there're tutors). It's a multiplayer game so your deck doesn't have to be able to answer everything forever. It's a lot less fun if you always have the answers too I think, so I tend to build my decks to sometimes have the answer rather than always.

[WolfWhoWanders]

I tend to run more targeted hate to try and avoid feelbads. Love Nezumi Graverobber // Nighteyes the Desecrator, Scavenging Ooze and the like. At the very least I prefer instant speed answers (which most of the better ones are). I have never tried Rest in Peace but did use Leyline of the Void in a short-lived Rankle deck. I'm sure they're good even outside helm combo, I'm sure I'd tech stuff in if graveyard shenanigans became a problem, but they generally aren't.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

It's meta dependent. I've played up to five before and seen occasion to run none without consequence. I keep about 15-30 extra cards for each of my decks for different scenarios, and once I know what people are playing in a given area, I will gear my deck to beat them in coming occasions. Lose a few today to win a thousand tomorrow, that's what I always say.

[RxPhantom]

I always try to run one or two pieces, but by far I'm most partial to Ashiok, Dream Render because it has additional utility and doesn't hate on my own graveyard.

[Ertai Planeswalker]

It's very prevalent in my meta. One player runs Scavenger Grounds in basically every deck and another player has an Emry, Lurker of the Loch deck that, while not going infinite, always has some shenanigans going on with playing Tormod's Crypt a few times per turn (an he always finds it). All in all, this has made running any kind of graveyard based deck too good effect in my meta nigh impossible.

By my own default I try to fit in 2-3 pieces in each deck but only if they're decent playable cards by themselves.

[BaronCappuccino]

I don't run anything I can't run in bulk. I was doing deck construction very similar to the 8x8 model before I even knew it was a thing. The notion is just what comes naturally to me. Experience has shown that I don't do well when I have to make decisions on the fly. I've never been a good control deck player. I do best playing at my opponents instead of with them. A deck that does the same thing every time is better for me. I need to spend weeks on a strategy at deck construction so that I don't mess up on strategy in a game. So, there's just no room for graveyard hate. I don't want to bother with hoping the stars align that in the particular game I'm versing a graveyard deck, I happen to run into my piece of graveyard hate.

[JWK]

I think I run at least 1 piece of graveyard hate in all of my decks, most probably run 2, but few run more than that. I used to run a little more, when it seemed about 1/3 of the people in my meta were running graveyard recursion decks, but there really isn't a local meta right now in COVIDworld, and the few people I play with in person and most of the people I run into playing via webcam aren't grave-focused enough to really warrant more. Same with spot LD. All of my decks run at least a Ghost Quarter and most run a couple pieces of targeted LD, but I don't favor MLD for various reasons and find what I run is broadly sufficient.

[ISBPathfinder]

So, for me it varies based on the strategy I am using. My faster more proactive decks will run less grave hate as little as zero where as my more midrange / control decks tend to have more. My Bruna deck for instance runs Phyrexian Furnace, Scrabbling Claws, Soul-Guide Lantern, and Hallowed Moonlight as dedicated graveyard hate but beyond that it also runs a number of effects to stop activated abilities which will often hit commanders with recursion built in.

I think it depends a lot on what kind of speed you plan to have. If your gameplan is to kill everyone on or by turns 5-7 then graveyard hate is a lot less important. If you plan to play a game of control you probably need to not ignore graveyards.

[Dunharrow]

Anybody averaging 4 or more pieces of GY hate per deck?

Remember that if there're 3 people and you're all running 2 pieces you're pretty likely to see one in a game between you (especially if there're tutors). It's a multiplayer game so your deck doesn't have to be able to answer everything forever. It's a lot less fun if you always have the answers too I think, so I tend to build my decks to sometimes have the answer rather than always.

Contrary to what we see in this poll, I find that in most games I play nowadays nobody is running any graveyard hate. But I guess that is more about the people I play with and less about the norm for commander since this poll really suggests that most people are playing a couple pieces of gy hate.

I wonder though if your theory hold water - if 3 people are each running two pieces against a graveyard deck, then is it enough to ensure the GY deck stays in check? If I am a gy deck I am running some ways to thwart hate cards.


I guess part of the reason why I started this thread is because I wonder if all decks should be packing 5-6 pieces of GY hate. But not Rest in Peace effects - cards that are more versatile:

I guess if I made a rule to include 6 GY hate cards in each deck, ignoring any specific synergies (helm combo, the new boros general), I would include these cards:

1. Relic of Progenitus
2. Scrabbling Claws
3. Soul-Guide Lantern
4. Scavenger Grounds

These 4 can go into pretty well any deck with no downside (though if you have GY synergies you may not want them)
Then I would include some on-color cards like Nihil Spellbomb, Scavenging Ooze, shuffle effects, etc.

I just wonder if making a point to include 6+ of these effects in every deck would it make decks stronger?

Not that I want to. I much prefer playing a cool synergistic card than a hate card. And I like GY strategies. It would suck if every game had multiple GY hate cards.

[ISBPathfinder]

@Dunharrow some of the challenge has been that a lot of decks use graveyards themselves so some cards like Relic of Progenitus while very good can be harder to include. I think that since the addition of Soul-Guide Lantern, a lot of people haven't really come back to running it and sufficient graveyard hate in general. Scrabbling Claws / Phyrexian Furnace for example are great supplemental tools for graveyard hate that can be thrown away as cheap cantrips when not relevant. I think that Tormod's Crypt is a great card but the fact that it lacks a card draw option when it isn't what you need makes it far too all or nothing. Tormod's is an amazing effect but the fact that its only ever grave hate and never a cheap cantrip makes it a lot harder to make room for in decks.

I think people overlook Scrabbling Claws / Phyrexian Furnace far too much. Its true that they don't have the raw power of a lot of the other tools but my argument is more that you should run them alongside other graveyard hate and not just running them.

When it comes to playing as a graveyard deck, I think far too many people go too deep on graveyard effects. I always ask myself how I play through a game where Rest in Peace has stuck. If your deck rolls up and dies to graveyard hate then you might be a touch too committed.

[Cyberium]

I always have Wasteland in my deck, so similarly I'd always pack some GY hate.

[pokken]

I just wonder if making a point to include 6+ of these effects in every deck would it make decks stronger?

Not that I want to. I much prefer playing a cool synergistic card than a hate card. And I like GY strategies. It would suck if every game had multiple GY hate cards.

I don't think so. There's a reason those cards are in the sideboard in most competitive formats. They're often dead and just terrible tempo even when they're "cantrips" (2 mana to get 1 card with relic is poor for example).

I think you're better off playing more universal things - removal, sweepers, etc. Or much broader hate like Archon of Emeria or Drannith Magistrate which have some splash damage on GY strategies while having more general power.

I have found myself really liking exile removal - more than once I've dropped a Winds of Abandon on a graveyard deck and they couldn't recover even with all the mana, because all their bombs were gone.

The only time can see more than 2-ish pieces I can tutor for is if they're synergistic with my strategy (e.g. I'm running Eldrazi processors or Helm of Obedience, or they're artifacts I can sac to Krark clan ironworks)

[JWK]

I think 6+ grave hate cards would be more than is necessary in most metas. A lot of the time you would be drawing into dead, or less than optimal, cards. Sure, you can sacrifice Relic of Progenitus to draw a card in a pinch, but it might be better to include fewer grave hate cards and better card draw to improve your odds of drawing into those along with other things you need.

[Toshi]

As for the point of redundancy, 8x8 model yada yada, once should keep in mind not all decks, metas and playstyles are alike.

My Edric, Spymaster of Trest deck runs no graveyard hate aside from Return to Nature because by default i'm outpacing all graveyard decks it commonly faces - no exceptions. Sure there's a Kess, Dissident Mage floating around, but she casts stuff from her graveyard instead of just targeting, so counterspells work just fine as well.

A few years back our meta ran close to no graveyard hate at all. But once Alesha, Who Smiles at Death, Tasigur, the Golden Fang, Marchesa, the Black Rose and others popped up in our pods that had to change. But since ETB abusing decks and landfall decks came more into rotation, so graveyard hate decreased slightly and we're starting to see more and more Hushbringers and LD than before.

Given what i pointed out above, there's just no room for extensive silver bullet suites in my decks. Overloading my deck with answers and so called staples would mean i'm giving up slots for my own game plan.
On average i'm running at least 35 lands, 7 ramp cards, 2 sweepers, 3 creature removals, 3 disenchants, 2 graveyard hate cards, with the possibility of more of them in my deck core slots - of which i "only" have a maximum of 47 left at that point. So every other card in my deck advances my game plan.
Let's just say i'd go with 35 lands, 10 ramp cards, 4 sweepers, 5 creature removals, 5 disenchants and 4 graveyard hate cards, i'd be down to 36 core slots. Now only about every 3rd card in my deck advances my own game plan. One could offset that by including more draw, but that either means you run some off choices just because they cantrip or you're losing out on even more core slots.
My experience is, that i much rather see an opponent overloading in that department with me advancing my game plan (and being less reliant on pieces) and if a huge symmetrical problem comes up i'm just as happy if i have a sweeper/hate/disenchant or someone else. I'm commited to dealing with neck breakers for my deck, not each and every little thing everytime.

I'm not convinced by the take that if you can't add something in redundant numbers, it might not be worth it.
Would you not consider Chaos Warp in mono red or rakdos decks, just because it's on of the rare Disenchants you can run and hard to tutor?
How about Memory Plunder in dimir decks? Aside from being CMC 4 that's a very versatile card and one of your best chances to get rid of resolved artifacts and echantments.

TL:DR As with all things, graveyard hate can't be examined in a vacuum.

[Hawk]

I vacillate, and I put most decks run 1 or 2 pieces but that isn't really accurate. I keep feeling it's necessary but it's so hard to justify the slots; it is easier if there is some overlap in deck themes. For instance, Sai, Master Thopterist and Alela, Artful Provocateur are thrilled to run stuff like Nihil Spellbomb, Soul-Guide Lantern, Tormod's Crypt, and/or Relic of Progenitus as they have no special graveyard synergy but do have artifact synergy. I believe both decks are running at least one and possibly two such cards each, as they are a nice safety value and also come with a 1/1 flier for the trouble. Meanwhile, Varina is running Withered Wretch, Cemetery Reaper, and Necromancer's Covenant to help ensure she can break the symmetry of Living Death, but it sure helps that those cards make zombies as well. Heliod runs Stonecloaker but Stonecloaker fills many other functions including a durdly way to keep triggering Oketra's Monument and the Soul Sisters and a cheap flier that can also "rescue" Heliod or other key creatures from lock-up spells like Darksteel Mutation.

I think the only decks that go out of their way for graveyard hate are Samut (which has Angel of Finality as part of its "get two steps ahead with hasty EtBs plan so it's not really out of the way) and Phelddagrif (which has to be ready for anything so runs Stonecloaker and Scavenger Grounds alongside a few exile-based removal pieces to be able to stop graveyard shenanigans).