What bothers you most about the Walking Dead commanders?

[pokken]

I definitely agree that the godzilla treatment is better and the optimal way to do this type of thing. I would prefer not having any non-Magic magic cards anymore but it is what it is.

[Wallycaine]

I definitely agree that the godzilla treatment is better and the optimal way to do this type of thing. I would prefer not having any non-Magic magic cards anymore but it is what it is.

Sometimes I like to imagine the alternate reality where they went with the Godzilla treatment, and everyone is up in arms when they say they don't currently have a print lined up for "Gorthos, Tyrant King" and the rest, just like Zilortha, Strength Incarnate. And when it turns out to be even harder to get those printed, because they can't change the name they already put on it, people complain about why they didn't just print them without the names locking them down.

[pokken]

Sometimes I like to imagine the alternate reality where they went with the Godzilla treatment, and everyone is up in arms when they say they don't currently have a print lined up for "Gorthos, Tyrant King" and the rest, just like Zilortha, Strength Incarnate. And when it turns out to be even harder to get those printed, because they can't change the name they already put on it, people complain about why they didn't just print them without the names locking them down.

It's fair to say that basically everything they do polarizes people (like everything seems to polarize these days) - I generally see shops vs. players, distributors vs. shops vs. players, casual players vs. tournament players, etc etc.

But I think they could have just waited to time this with the release of a set (say, 2 weeks before or whatever to build hype, or 2-4 weeks after to reinvigorate, whatever works).

Fairly simple solution I think - if these cards were in the next set no one would be *that* upset.

[Wallycaine]

Sometimes I like to imagine the alternate reality where they went with the Godzilla treatment, and everyone is up in arms when they say they don't currently have a print lined up for "Gorthos, Tyrant King" and the rest, just like Zilortha, Strength Incarnate. And when it turns out to be even harder to get those printed, because they can't change the name they already put on it, people complain about why they didn't just print them without the names locking them down.

It's fair to say that basically everything they do polarizes people (like everything seems to polarize these days) - I generally see shops vs. players, distributors vs. shops vs. players, casual players vs. tournament players, etc etc.

But I think they could have just waited to time this with the release of a set (say, 2 weeks before or whatever to build hype, or 2-4 weeks after to reinvigorate, whatever works).

Fairly simple solution I think - if these cards were in the next set no one would be *that* upset.

The biggest issue with that is that means they no longer can design the cards to be the characters directly, which was one of their goals. If it has to fit into a set, that means they're limited to the mechanics in that set (so no stuff like Skulk to be flavorful), and they have to fit into the limited/standard environment of the set. The end result would likely be legends that feel more "generic", and complaints about them not fitting the characters showcased. It's possible that they'll explore that route more going forward, but it definitely comes with some major drawbacks.

[pokken]

The biggest issue with that is that means they no longer can design the cards to be the characters directly, which was one of their goals. If it has to fit into a set, that means they're limited to the mechanics in that set (so no stuff like Skulk to be flavorful), and they have to fit into the limited/standard environment of the set. The end result would likely be legends that feel more "generic", and complaints about them not fitting the characters showcased. It's possible that they'll explore that route more going forward, but it definitely comes with some major drawbacks

Yeah I guess. I think those are surmountable obstacles though.

[ISBPathfinder]

I still don't really care about the whole "non maigc universe" on magic cards thing. I think the Godzilla setup was better but I don't really feel strongly about this from that standpoint.

The price tag and distribution model are currently the only things I dislike. Oh also on top of that $50 product there is a very hefty shipping and handling fee. I think it was like $6-7 for shipping within the USA which given the price tag of the product really feels like them spitting in my eye. I was already mad that this was a direct from wizards where I have to pre order then they take their zero risk preorder money and order my product to be printed and sent straight to me so they get 100% of the profit and they kick me on my way past by charging me shipping and handling which I would not have to pay through amazon or my LGS.

Beyond all of that.... This product is like 6 cards. I pay for people to ship me cards on TCG all the time and they often send me cards at the cost of like.... $0.50 when I do even pay shipping or ignore shipping cost entirely. The fact that I am paying like $1 a card shipped when they are bundling and sending them all to me is insane.

[Segrus]

I had a long, unproductive argument about this last night and I feel like I need an outlet. I don't do this with the expectation that everybody will agree with me; on the contrary, last night showed me I'm more alone on it than I'd like. Hopefully, though, I'll be able to better outline my thoughts to make my point at least understandable, since getting attacked by 2-4 people at once on a discord makes it difficult for legible logic flow.

I don't consider myself to be a Vorthos player, but I enjoy the flavor of the Magic universe to a large extent. I find it to be unique in many ways and one of my favorite ways to build Commander decks is using that flavor (or bending the flavor to make a flavorful deck). Very big on transparent themes, identities like tribal, and seeing those themes/identities come out directly over the course of a game. Honestly, that was one of the biggest draws to me as a new player. Magic, as a game, was presented to me as a game where you act/pretend/imagine yourself as a planeswalker within the universe of Magic. Your spells called upon creatures of new and old to fight for you and protect you from the deadly elements of opposing planeswalkers. When you decided to join the Mirran faction against the Phyrexians in FNM, you were acting as a real agent of the Mirrans to stop the corruption of the Mirrodin plane. The cards of Magic feel like more than cards because they feel like the story and direct representation of the Magic universe itself.

Of course, this lends itself to some problems. It means accepting P3K and Arabian Nights are problems, since they're more real life than they are "Magic universe." Or, for example, how Future Sight isn't exactly considered "canon" since they represent alternate timelines of the what-could-have-been. When it comes to Future Sight, I think I still consider it "canon" due to it not being too much of a stretch that we're also talking about a multiverse--adding parallel timelines isn't really stretching, fictionally speaking. And with P3K and Arabian Nights, I'd say some exceptions can be made due to when they were printed. They didn't really know what they wanted to do with Magic and experimented until they realized the cards/game of Magic could represent a compelling story.

So when it comes to black bordered cards with an official Magic backing, I'm of the opinion virtually anything printed with that border/backing (also technically white bordered as well) is considered canon. Again, it doesn't seem like most people agree with me here. That's how I was brought into Magic though: that the game of Magic and the story of Magic are inextricably combined. There is no separation. They are one and the same. Print a tournament legal card and that spell, land, creature is now a part of Magic somehow, somewhere. Sometimes there's hits and misses with this, where I have to scratch my head and just shrug my shoulders to accept it.

It isn't only other players who disagree with me though. WOTC also doesn't agree that the game and the story should have anything to do with one another (any longer? who knows?).

"Magic is actually two things...that are in many ways distinct but have been unified in ways that we've been seeking to untangle. Um, one of them is a game system...the other one is an intellectual property...
In the last few years we've taken great strides in attempting to take the intellectual property piece of that and peel it away from the game a little bit."
(from the stream on this Secret Lair)

I think the reason for saying something like this is to use later as their reason to print more and more of these collaborations with other franchises. If game and story don't have one to do with the other, then Magic is no different from Legos or Monopoly. It allows them to print Spongebob Squarepants alongside Pickle Rick with one of them carrying Lucille while the other wears Mickey Mouse (TM) ears, make them into tournament pieces you are coerced to purchase, and if you complain about immersion the company line is already prepared: "Game and story/flavor/lore mean nothing and are whatever we say they are at every given instant, even if it contradicts something I just said 2 minutes ago." There's no accountability in that.

Which is why TWD being black bordered is such a problem for me. Maybe not the biggest problem, but still a massive one. Because it means--despite what WOTC claims, despite the stupid symbol at the bottom of the card to mark is as a Secret Lair card--these characters are canon now. And that canon is whatever TWD comics and tv show has constructed, even if trying to combine them with Magic is like oil in water. A canon that comes with a lot of problematic behaviors from its characters not intended for the context of the Magic universe. And it affirms that WOTC and I fundamentally disagree when it comes to Magic: the game and the story are one wild thing combined together for me. You could say, "Well, if you disagree with WOTC about Magic, and WOTC is and forever will be the ultimate authority on Magic, then maybe this game isn't for you."

As the Professor said in his video, "And I can't help but feel this is us transitioning from the mentality of 'maybe this product isn't for you,' to 'maybe this game isn't for you.'" So maybe you're right.

[Kelzam]

So when it comes to black bordered cards with an official Magic backing, I'm of the opinion virtually anything printed with that border/backing (also technically white bordered as well) is considered canon.

I cropped away the rest the fluff and broke it down to the root issue because I'm tired of seeing this argument. And I'm here to tell you—and anyone thinking this way—that your unwillingness to budge despite what Aaron Forscythe or anyone at Wizards says, is on you. This is you causing yourself emotional and mental discomfort over this issue and on one else's responsibility because you've attached baggage to what it means to have a black border that is owned by no one but else y'all and that has never been true or any sort of hard philosophy on Wizard's part. If Aaron says that they're peeling the IP and the game system apart a little bit and you're unwilling to listen and begrudgingly hold on to now a now proven incorrect assumption about what does and doesn't make something canon, the onus of that is entirely on you and not WotC's responsibility. The baggage of black border meaning "canon" in the Magic multiverse is baggage that you and others have attached to what has—until now—been an entirely mechanical feature, that being the color of a border on a Magic card. People have repeatedly incorrectly stated that a card must have a silver border to exist as a Magic card and outside of the game's canon, when silver borders have also been nothing but a mechanical divide between what Wizards is willing to do and not willing to do in black border Magic cards mechanically that will see play across a wide berth of tables. Just as gold borders served a mechanical purpose in helping denote non-tournament legal cards, as well. We all know Aladdin and Ali Baba aren't hanging around in the multiverse somewhere, and that the real life Shakespear quotes and other real world references don't mean Shakespear is out there writing poems because his writing appeared on flavor text on normal cards. And while they've stopped using real world references, the point remains: Just because you say being black border makes something "canon" in Magic, does not make it so because that is not true. <You and people regurgitating this argument is about akin to the politicians claiming that COVID-19 isn't any worse than the flu. Both are patently false statements for the sake of spinning an emotional argument with zero factual basis. So, please, drop this absurd, false factoid and stop touting it as such.>

And with that, I've made my one post here because I've been over this topic for the last week, but I'm sick to death of seeing certain sentiments constantly pop up that aren't even based in reality (such as the "RC doesn't care anymore" , people need to pull their heads out).

Warning for flaming. - cryo

[Segrus]

You and people regurgitating this argument is about akin to the politicians claiming that COVID-19 isn't any worse than the flu. Both are patently false statements for the sake of spinning an emotional argument with zero factual basis.

This kind of hyperbole does nothing to change my mind nor does it serve any useful purpose other than allowing you to pat yourself on the back as if you've suddenly won an argument.

You're welcome to your opinion, and I'm just going to leave it at that.

[onering]

You and people regurgitating this argument is about akin to the politicians claiming that COVID-19 isn't any worse than the flu. Both are patently false statements for the sake of spinning an emotional argument with zero factual basis.

This kind of hyperbole does nothing to change my mind nor does it serve any useful purpose other than allowing you to pat yourself on the back as if you've suddenly won an argument.

You're welcome to your opinion, and I'm just going to leave it at that.

No, he's right that black (and white) bordered doesn't indicate canon in story. That's not opinion, that's established fact, and has been for years because P3K has never been canon.

But I think that simple argument doesn't really capture the gist of your opinion. Without getting hung up on black border not being tied to canon, the broader point your making about outside IPs being immersion breaking stands and should be addressed on its own. I agree with you, seeing these cards would be immersion breaking and feel fake. The MLP cards were already that for me, so wash the Transformer's card. The Godzilla cards I felt a bit differently about because Ikoria was the Kaiju plane so they actually fit the tone and flavor of the set they were released in, so they didn't feel that out of place even being a well known outside IP. That's kind of the same reason I'm ok with P3K and Arabian Nights, because even though they are outside IPs they fit with the feel and tone of early magic, which was essentially random fantasy tropes and D&D campaigns thrown together at the time. I feel like I can stomach outside IPs that really fit the theme and aren't a jarring juxtaposition against what magic is. But TWD, like MLP and Transformers, takes it further in a direction that undermines the feel of the game. At least MLP and Grimlock were silver bordered, which isn't what makes them non canon but does make them essentially custom cards. I don't have to play against them, and can ignore their existence. Skins like the Godzilla cards are basically alters. Unique, brand new, tournament legal cards of outside IPs is a new and troubling step that badly breaks the immersion and spoils the experience of magic. And like you, I never want to see the day where Spongebob beats Iron Man to death with Lucille, unless its in goofy ass silver border land.

[Ginuqu]

revising my chief hang-up to being the way I can't find anyone who wants to play really weird freestyle casual Magic, so I'm forced to build a commander deck, and then that format promptly starts to fragment and be dominated by biz gossip which I deeply don't care about. think I'm gonna suspend my idea of getting into EDH and just use the cards I'd ordered for other things, write some articles about solo play or something.

[Segrus]

You and people regurgitating this argument is about akin to the politicians claiming that COVID-19 isn't any worse than the flu. Both are patently false statements for the sake of spinning an emotional argument with zero factual basis.

This kind of hyperbole does nothing to change my mind nor does it serve any useful purpose other than allowing you to pat yourself on the back as if you've suddenly won an argument.

You're welcome to your opinion, and I'm just going to leave it at that.

No, he's right that black (and white) bordered doesn't indicate canon in story. That's not opinion, that's established fact, and has been for years because P3K has never been canon.

That wasn't mean to be a refute on the topic of what constitutes canon, but I do see how it looks that way. When I said, "You're welcome to your opinion," I was thinking more about the insinuation that I'm stupid, an idiot, and unworthy of being allowed a voice. That I'm on the level with people who are considered to be trying to cause society as a whole to be killed by a widespread virus. That I'm so unbearably ignorant for having feelings about the flavor of the game. I've been aggressively told about black/white border's lack of connection with canon more than once now, it's just unfortunately the only place I can begin to express where I'm coming from. It's what I believed when I was brought into Magic--even if it was wrong--and that experience formulates a part of the basis for one of the reasons I have problems with these TWD cards. Obviously I do place value in my emotional connection to the game and story, so I'm going to disagree with somebody's opinion that those things are worthless or at best delusions.

[toctheyounger]

revising my chief hang-up to being the way I can't find anyone who wants to play really weird freestyle casual Magic, so I'm forced to build a commander deck, and then that format promptly starts to fragment and be dominated by biz gossip which I deeply don't care about. think I'm gonna suspend my idea of getting into EDH and just use the cards I'd ordered for other things, write some articles about solo play or something.

Totally get it, but I do want to say it's a shame that you've made this decision. All the current release drama aside, I strongly believe this format is the greatest one available to Magic consumers in general. It's social, malleable, non-competitive and can be absolutely wonderful. Where else could I create decks to emulate a series of books I like? There's no other format where zombie tribal can be as fun as I'd like to think my Varina build is.

Don't give up on the format just yet, give it a fair shake at least. Generally, our community is pretty unified, supportive and generally pretty great people that'll go out of their way to help you do what you want to do, and our format is a lot of fun. At the very least if you don't like the game play you can always take whatever deck you end up creating apart and trade it for value. This whole drama will pass, and while it's a bit of a bleak scenario, you don't need to buy into it. Just grab yourself some cards, make a deck and have some fun, it really doesn't have to pervade your games any more than you let it.

[Treamayne]

No, he's right that black (and white) bordered doesn't indicate canon in story. That's not opinion, that's established fact, and has been for years because P3K has never been canon.

That is technically, partially correct.

Back before the block paradigm, Mr. Garfield had intended major releases to be entirely separate and played independently (starting with Ice Age - which was the first "expansion" to release with it's own basic land - so you could play *just* Ice Age). After IA, when the block concept took over (Mirage), was when they looked back and said (paraphrase) "Let's stop using real world references, everything printed is now from a plane in the multiverse, or different continents/eras from a given plane." This is also when they ret-conned "planes" for previous sets (such as Rabiah for Arabian Nights - by adding Suleiman's Legacy to Visions and adding flavor text to the 5th edition version of Sorceress Queen|5ed - and eventually a plane card in Planechase).

A few years later, when they were trying to make the game more accessible to new players, they made Portal (Jun 97 - and P2 in 98 and P3K in 99). That's when they ret-conned their stance to be (paraphrase) "Normal releases are cannon, Portal is not Cannon, because it's meant to be a "stepping stone" for teaching Magic." So, yes, P3K was never cannon, but not because Black and White bordered sets were not considered to encapsulate the Cannon; but because Portal (and other teaching products) were specifically exempted (they were also not legal for tournament play until 2005 when they were ret-conned into Legacy and Vintage).

Later still came Silver Bordered land (Unglued - Aug 98, and eventually its sequels), which were also specifically exempted. Not just because the mechanics were things they did not want to have in traditional Magic (though that is true too), but because they wanted to include homages (Richard Garfield, Ph.D.|unh) and other random things (Look at Me, I'm the DCI|ugl)where they knew it would not affect the stories and cohesion of the main game.

Fast forward a few decades and you can see why people who began playing between 2000-2019 would think that black bordered is the same as "representative of a canon Magic plane, or planar region/era." In all that time (From when they stopped making portal and firmly followed the block paradigm), Black Bordered meant "part of the Magic Multiverse", White Bordered meant "reprint for Core Set" (until Tenth when they admitted nobody liked white bordered cards and reprinting core sets in black bordered didn't appreciably affect the first printing's value) and Silver bordered meant "outside the Magic Multiverse."

So, yes. Early MtG did not have a "Cannon" IP, nor did it denote that with borders. Yes, there are releases in Magic's history that were both Black Bordered and non-cannon. That does not obviate that WotC's policy for decades was what the players now feel to have been violated by the "crossover IP in black bordered" issue. That policy was reinforced with the Pony and Transformer's releases as Silver Bordered crossovers, now this release overturns all of that and it is natural for players to feel bewildered and betrayed.



PS: For the record, I started playing in Jul 94 with Legends, Dark and Revised. I admit that I was not playing when Arabian Nights was released.

[Card Slinger J]

There's literally no reason that this is the case. One member of the RC works for Wizards, the rest do not. If that's your evidence, it's hardly new and it isn't particularly compelling.

Aside from that, they're not the bad guys here, they take enough %$#% in general, so honestly this just feels like projecting that you didn't get what you wanted. No offense, it's just a bit reactionary.

Okay okay I get it. Knowing that only one out of the rest of the Rules Committee works for Wizards of the Coast puts my mind at ease. I have nothing against the Rules Committee when I'm more disappointed with Wizards of the Coast in regards to how they allowed this situation to occur by putting the Rules Committee on the spot like this.

I get it, though. You want to be able to vent your frustration at someone who can actually take your frustration. It's just that it's not their fault at all. I can see how they arrived at the decision myself and I'm pretty disappointed that they didn't take a firmer stance, but yeah, it's a scenarion their ban criteria doesn't really cover.

What If Wizards of the Coast actually paid each member of the Rules Committee not to ban the Walking Dead Secret Lair cards? As crazy as it sounds I can't rule out the possibility of this happening. Imagine If you were one of those members in the Rules Committee and Wizards of the Coast pays you to be quiet when the only two things on the line is your reputation and the overall health of the EDH / Commander format. What would you do in that kind of scenario?

Warning for baseless conspiracy theory. - cryo

[Yatsufusa]

No, he's right that black (and white) bordered doesn't indicate canon in story. That's not opinion, that's established fact, and has been for years because P3K has never been canon.

But I think that simple argument doesn't really capture the gist of your opinion. Without getting hung up on black border not being tied to canon, the broader point your making about outside IPs being immersion breaking stands and should be addressed on its own. I agree with you, seeing these cards would be immersion breaking and feel fake. The MLP cards were already that for me, so wash the Transformer's card. The Godzilla cards I felt a bit differently about because Ikoria was the Kaiju plane so they actually fit the tone and flavor of the set they were released in, so they didn't feel that out of place even being a well known outside IP. That's kind of the same reason I'm ok with P3K and Arabian Nights, because even though they are outside IPs they fit with the feel and tone of early magic, which was essentially random fantasy tropes and D&D campaigns thrown together at the time. I feel like I can stomach outside IPs that really fit the theme and aren't a jarring juxtaposition against what magic is. But TWD, like MLP and Transformers, takes it further in a direction that undermines the feel of the game. At least MLP and Grimlock were silver bordered, which isn't what makes them non canon but does make them essentially custom cards. I don't have to play against them, and can ignore their existence. Skins like the Godzilla cards are basically alters. Unique, brand new, tournament legal cards of outside IPs is a new and troubling step that badly breaks the immersion and spoils the experience of magic. And like you, I never want to see the day where Spongebob beats Iron Man to death with Lucille, unless its in goofy ass silver border land.

I won't deny there's a layer of hypocrisy when we excuse/accept Arabian Nights & P3K in mostly because they were that old when MTG was in its infancy, but at least they were folk tales / historical events, not modern pop-culture things. Ever since those two the game has actively distanced from direct references to even those and proceeded with putting their own unique spin on the various historical/cultural aspects they draw from. Even when they started direct collaborations with modern-day culture, measures were taken to make sure they didn't directly interject into the comprehensive rules, be it sending them to Silver-Border-Dimension (where nothing really matters) or sculpting the Godzilla-Alter-style system. To some degree perhaps we should have foreseen that they'll eventually determine that decade-long effort for immersion is worthless to them, ever since they were willing to directly reference modern-day culture.

I'll be blunt - Magic's lore has always been a fragile thing and while the Black-Border = Canon thing was never really pronounced (and its precursor era being contradictory), the effort exerted around it over the decades gave the game's lore a structural shape (of immersion) to base itself on, even during disastrous periods like Test of Metal / War of the Spark. That shape at least sustained a good number of Vorthos who at least try to restructure the internal mistakes (such as the Mirrodin Retcon). Then again, the bulk of players even back then didn't really know or care about the lore and their percentages might have increased with the Arena influx, so maybe they just decided to just throw it all out the window. They'll continue to generate stories, backgrounds, characters and so on for sure, but sculpting the multiverse itself other than "It's there and this is maybe part of it or not" is no longer a concern.

Then there's double-layering with the realism of the TWD cards (which makes this problem doubly obvious) - I don't watch/read TWD, I don't see Daryl on the card, I see Norman Reedus (and I don't even know him from the acting circle, I just happen to know him due to Death Stranding), at least with non live-action/extreme-fictional sources like MLP/Transformer Robots/Godzilla the character is the character for sure even if I don't know the source material. With live-action, if I recognize the actor/actress but not the series, it'll straight up imprint a vanity card in my mind regardless of ability.

I can't even be too upset at the whole scenario, hypocritical as I am, my EDH decks essentially seek for aesthetical themes from outside MTG (music, sleeves, characters) because while functionally they're a ragtag bunch of misfits across the multiverse, I like to seek what represents the deck/idea as a whole and since I messed it up in-universe I have to look outside. But ultimately that's my luxury as a single consumer and being aesthetical it's mostly in my head/designs, functionally nobody could tell it when I play at my LGS outside my sleeves (and one alter) and even then they won't understand it unless they've been through my design process anyway. I guess WotC got jealous of that part of the pie and wanted in.

Ultimately though, as per my final thoughts post (this is just an aftermath post because my thoughts got itchy again), they essentially undid two decades of work to preserve the overall structural shape of their lore, by directly injecting a modern-day culture crossover into the most legal of gameplay. I emphasized on the word "sanctity" (although it wasn't very sacred as we've already woven Arabian Nights and P3K) in, but with the blatancy of modern-day culture directly inserted it is essentially broken to no repair.

Once broken, forever gone. Honestly since the blunder is already made, I'd honestly they'll just wholeheartedly embrace the route, it'll be even more awkward for TWD to be the only blunder of its kind and unfair to every other potential collaboration out there if only TWD fans get to directly embrace their characters while the rest of us have to play imagine/alter. WotC should find out which anime series gets the most alters and get a collaboration out there, it'll be quite the entertaining uproar, honestly.

Also, like plenty of times when WotC rears its ugly head the community does as well and this time it's darn obvious - all the blame to the RC under the guise of "you can speak for us" sound more and more like "I don't want to be the bad guy who tells the TWD fan to GTFO out of my games so I want you, the RC, to set it as a default so I don't look like a bad guy and can just use you as a scapegoat" every other extra time I hear the same "reasoning". Extra disgusting when they layer it with "RC is WotC's scapegoat if they're not my scapegoat". The more WotC churns out these products unapologetically, the less it seems the RC would be like a scapegoat. Churn it out until the community itself reacts well enough to WotC to notice what they want, not for a vocal lot to just hide behind the RC playing "I'm WotC #2!".

Me? I'm just going to continue playing EDH like I've always had, if someone shows up with a TWD deck, I'm not going to reject that person, I do play imagine-aesthetically-theme my own decks after all. But the lore is dead the way WotC wanted it, now I'll just tell new players the gist of planeswalkers frolicking about and there's no real need to immerse in the multiverse. In fact, you'll need more collaborations for an easier time to get people in now, the same way I introduce people to mobile games that are collaborating with series they like. If you started and stopped with only TWD you just walked yourself into the corner, "friend".

This may sound overly passive-aggressive because of the way I worded it, but change from "I love/play this game for immersion-passion" to "it's just flavored cardboard business now" is real, even if I might have ran the aesthetic-wording mile by a bit.

[Card Slinger J]

To add onto my point earlier, I'm not sure If money changed hands directly between the Rules Committee and Wizards of the Coast. It is possible that the Rules Committee was profiting off of their decision to rubber stamp anything Hasbro wants to do to the players. Jobs, interview fees, merchandise, playing Magic: The Stock Market, are all some of the ways that the Rules Committee members could profit from selling the community's integrity for access in the corporation.

Other people with power and access have been known to profit off of their positions and it'd be much preferable If the entity running EDH / Commander had real transparency and ways to prove that they were on the up and up instead of just having to trust a company employee and fellow committee members that they are ethically distancing themselves. Speculation in regards to the Rules Committee financially profiting themselves off of the EDH / Commander Banned List is shady at best.

Baseless nonsense. - cryo

[toctheyounger]

To add onto my point earlier, I'm not sure If money changed hands directly between the Rules Committee and Wizards of the Coast. It is possible that the Rules Committee was profiting off of their decision to rubber stamp anything Hasbro wants to do to the players. Jobs, interview fees, merchandise, playing Magic: The Stock Market, are all some of the ways that the Rules Committee members could profit from selling the community's integrity for access in the corporation.

Other people with power and access have been known to profit off of their positions and it'd be much preferable If the entity running EDH / Commander had real transparency and ways to prove that they were on the up and up instead of just having to trust a company employee and fellow committee members that they are ethically distancing themselves. Speculation in regards to the Rules Committee financially profiting themselves off of the EDH / Commander Banned List is shady at best.

Look, the only ones that can confirm or deny this for you are the RC themselves, and/or the CAG. If this or thoughts similar are ones that worry you, I'm not sure there's any point in arguing the point back and forth. Without trying to be rude either, it makes me wonder if this format is for you, too. At least in other formats the rules come from directly above rather than from an outside party that you might need to wonder about.

For myself I don't wonder because I've seen enough communication directly from Sheldon and Toby here, and enough discussion from the CAG to know that my voice is represented. That's partly because of who's in the group; Shivam and Olivia are very much casual gamers and they're pretty vocal about it. That is me, and I simply can't see people like that discarding their moral compasses for the almighty dollar - I wouldn't, and I'm not a wealthy man. I didn't know either one pre-CAG, but I was absolutely delighted to discussions and gameplay from Olivia after the fact, because so many of my thoughts and views are represented by someone like her, likewise Shivam, he's just such a nice guy.

I think there's a temptation to see cloaks and daggers whenever this sort of thing happens because it is a bit disappointing. but I think we need to keep in mind that in most scenarios outside of the X-Files or American politics, the norm or standard state of affairs is that there is no conspiracy and no collusion.

[JWK]

What If Wizards of the Coast actually paid each member of the Rules Committee not to ban the Walking Dead Secret Lair cards? As crazy as it sounds I can't rule out the possibility of this happening. Imagine If you were one of those members in the Rules Committee and Wizards of the Coast pays you to be quiet when the only two things on the line is your reputation and the overall health of the EDH / Commander format. What would you do in that kind of scenario?

What if you're secretly a shapechanging Martian vampire unicorn? We can't rule out that possibility, either. It's almost as likely as the one you suggest.

[brainface]

I think what bothers me most is that... this is the type of thing we'd normally see on someone's The Walking Dead fansite forums or whatnot, and it'd be good for a "that's neat!" reaction. Maybe some people play with custom commanders, as well?

And it's taking something that's neat homemade fan type material and putting a fifty-dollar price tag on it, blackbordering, and making it limited edition? That's... crazy. It feels crazy!

It reminds me of when I played Star Trek Online. We were limited to Klingon and Federation starships, but at some point they came out with a Cardassian Galor. That's a neat starship! I'd wanted one for a while. They released it as part of random gamblingly lock-box promotion... and the price worked out to "probably 80$." And that killed every anticipation I might have had for cool new starship coming out.

This feels the same! If I'm paying money for a product, I want to get the feeling I'm spending some sort of money for enjoyment, not... like it's a predatory business practice? And this is ticking off my "predatory business practice" sense I suppose.

[toctheyounger]

And it's taking something that's neat homemade fan type material and putting a fifty-dollar price tag on it, blackbordering, and making it limited edition? That's... crazy. It feels crazy!

To add to this, and this is totally a subjective thing that some might not agree on, but I hate the art. All of them are very pedestrian, to the point that I personally think they almost look like homemade custom cards. I just can't help it, I hate them. A lot. Art is subjective of course, but I don't know of anyone raving about the art on these.

[materpillar]

And it's taking something that's neat homemade fan type material and putting a fifty-dollar price tag on it, blackbordering, and making it limited edition? That's... crazy. It feels crazy!

To add to this, and this is totally a subjective thing that some might not agree on, but I hate the art. All of them are very pedestrian, to the point that I personally think they almost look like homemade custom cards. I just can't help it, I hate them. A lot. Art is subjective of course, but I don't know of anyone raving about the art on these.

The art is exceptionally generic. I didn't notice how much so until I saw some alters.

[toctheyounger]

And it's taking something that's neat homemade fan type material and putting a fifty-dollar price tag on it, blackbordering, and making it limited edition? That's... crazy. It feels crazy!

To add to this, and this is totally a subjective thing that some might not agree on, but I hate the art. All of them are very pedestrian, to the point that I personally think they almost look like homemade custom cards. I just can't help it, I hate them. A lot. Art is subjective of course, but I don't know of anyone raving about the art on these.

The art is exceptionally generic. I didn't notice how much so until I saw some alters.

They're SO vanilla right? After the last few SL's being actually quite beautiful alt-art, these are very, very pedestrian.

[cryogen]

There is absolutely no evidence that the Rules Committee in the pockets of WotC or that their decisions are being driven by WotC. I know it's only been two people spreading this nonsense, but this is a general warning that posts of that nature without any evidence to back it up (i.e. useless spam posts with no substance) will be warned.

[Cyberium]

None of the above.

What bothers me is that WotC is setting up potential continuation for such decision.