The Community Deck Build Project v2.0

[Gentle Giant]

I'm joining the fray this time!

Given the many small tappy critters, I suggest Harvest Season: ramp which is relevant/strong in the late game too and can be tapped towards with birds n' goose.

Into the North - yay if we're adding the coatl
Birds of Paradise - yay
Gilded Goose - yay
Sol Ring - yay
Maraleaf Pixie - yay
Skyshroud claim - what does our landbase look like? If it's a min-maxed one than yay, otherwise nay: we've got more deck specific ramp to play!

Concerning the goose: we can make it synergize enough that it's way better than a lotus petal for our deck.

[3drinks]

Into the North, Goose, and Ring have all been confirmed.

Yay to Skyshroud Claim. Getting a two mv rebate after fetching duals is too good to not play.

Nay to Maraleaf Pixie. Mana dorks are fragile. They're sought after for their speed thus at the two you get more stable land ramp or more explosive dorks that provide more than one mana. This is neither of those things. Contrast to, say, Bloom Tender that'd be a slam dunk.

Nay to Harvest Season. My god Bolas this card is terrible. At three you're already competing with Cultivate except you're conditional on having a large board (you need at least three creatures to make this better), and they all have to be tapped meaning you need to typically, have survived combat. It's a ramp spell you play late, which is...bad and very ill-timed. That makes this more like a {conditional} draw spell, making it more akin to Borrowing 100,000 Arrows or Keep Watch...both of which being cards that no one is exactly clamouring to slam into their decks.

For today's card, along with the aforementioned Skyshroud Claim, I'm nominating Three Visits to the list. What's not to love? One mv after rebate to find a dual or even just a forest makes this such an incredibly efficient card. Even moreso in comparison to some of the other cards submitted, such as the aforementioned pixie. Like night and day.

Into the North yay - 3 nay - 1
Gilded Goose yay - 3 nay - 2
Sol Ring yay - 4 nay - 0
Maraleaf Pixie yay - 1 nay - 1
Skyshroud Claim yay - 2 nay - 0
Harvest Season yay - 0 nay - 1
Three Visits yay - 0 nay - 0

[kirkusjones]

Nay to Harvest Season. Yea on Three Visits, Maraleaf Pixie and Into the North and a cautious yea on Skyshroud Claim. The only non-basics we can grab are the snowlands from Kaldheim (which we should probably be running) and Zagoth Triome, unless we splurge a little on the manabase and run Breeding Pool and Overgrown Tomb.

My suggestion for today is Crop Rotation. You never know when you're going to need a surprise Bojuka Bog.

[3drinks]

Nay to Harvest Season. Yea on Three Visits, Maraleaf Pixie and Into the North and a cautious yea on Skyshroud Claim. The only non-basics we can grab are the snowlands from Kaldheim (which we should probably be running) and Zagoth Triome, unless we splurge a little on the manabase and run Breeding Pool and Overgrown Tomb.

My suggestion for today is Crop Rotation. You never know when you're going to need a surprise Bojuka Bog.

WotC really, really needs to finish the Tango & Bicycle land cycles......

[3drinks]

Maraleaf Pixie has been confirmed. I'll yay that crop rotation while I'm here.

Maraleaf Pixie yay - 3 nay - 1
Skyshroud Claim yay - 2 nay - 0
Harvest Season yay - 0 nay - 2
Three Visits yay - 1 nay - 0
Crop rotation yay - 1 nay -0

[Dunharrow]

into the north - Yay (it is good enough, just barely)
Gilded Goose - Nay - card is trash
Sol Ring - Yay
maraleaf pixie - Yay
Skyshroud claim - Yay

I do not like Astrolabe either. We are a 3 color deck, so there are real chances of not having basics on turn 1. It is just a cantrip, and I would rather have cantrips that can dig or that ramp.
As such, I nominate Growth Spiral

[3drinks]

@Dunharrow are you looking a few pages back? Most of your votes are for dated cards already confirmed/denied. I'll wait to update the list until you see the current pool.

[Gentle Giant]

Nay to Harvest Season. My god Bolas this card is terrible. At three you're already competing with Cultivate except you're conditional on having a large board (you need at least three creatures to make this better), and they all have to be tapped meaning you need to typically, have survived combat. It's a ramp spell you play late, which is...bad and very ill-timed. That makes this more like a {conditional} draw spell, making it more akin to Borrowing 100,000 Arrows or Keep Watch...both of which being cards that no one is exactly clamouring to slam into their decks.

Not really livin' up to your intentions of being less harsh about picks now are we?
You don't have to attack to have your harvest season work, tapping mana dorks works fine too. That's why the pixie and goose would be interesting as a more mana dorks oriented package that synergizes with the commanders. Aside from the fact that small fliers often don't have issue to poke someone early game.

Aside from that, I'd like to posit a question, seeing all the voting happen: what is the goal of this deck and the community challenge? I recall Dirk saying that he'd rather not join in on these things because they always tend to end up at middle of the road generic good stuff. Seeing the suggestions so far, I kinda feel the same way (although it's a bit early to outright say it). Stuff like skyshroud claim and growth spiral, while strong cards, don't really strive to fit this deck, (same goes for stuff like the astrolabe). Granted, I didn't really keep up with the previous thread, but hence the question: are we just going for the top 50 ramp spell package? Or something arguably worse, but more in line with what would fit the theme of the deck? (Like my suggestion)

Additionally, beginning with the ramp package feels a bit backwards: what are we ramping towards? Our ramp needs to service the game plan, not the other way around. Ramp that comes into play untapped helps us play small flyers in the same turn, but what about farseek/into the north? Slamming down the blue commander asap doesn't really do much for us...

Please note that I'm not salty or w/e, I just wanna know what these unspoken lines are so I can decide whether I'd like to continue to engage with this thread.

EDIT: The initial post outlines that we're going for the mythical 75%, with mid to high power level. There's such a wide gap between mid and high and people's perception of it. Is the top 10 sultai ramp cards high power? (And barring artifact ramp, what distinguishes those from cEDH?) If so, what constitutes mid? This also makes it hard to know what to expect or suggest towards. For example, your perspective on astrolabe already tells me that your mid is closer to my high.

[Crazy Monkey]

The most difficult part of a group activity like this is that everyone has their own opinion, whether fully formed or not, on how to accomplish the intention of the deck. It's like a movie or show; everyone says that you can really see the influence of the director, and at the same time many shows that were "by committee" are viewed with a negative slant. That, by design, will be how these threads work.

Now, a thought that we haven't really discussed here: why, exactly, are we ramping? I think that, contrary to earlier discussion, the ramp so far looks like we are ramping to land Siani, Eye of the Storm instead of Ikra Shidiqi, the Usurper. We also don't really have a cohesive plan, subtheme, or other guidance, and honestly Siana would help dig through the deck, so this is not inherently a bad idea.

To articulate that differently, we have ramp that is 1-2 MV, getting us to 4 mana early with the ability to cast Siana. Ikra is better ramped into with the Cultivate types of spells. I feel like we're a bit disjointed because we don't really have a curve yet beyond a couple of comments, and the ramp we are talking about looks better suited to ramp out the partner opposite to the one people wanted to build around more (I think?).

On the topic of Harvest Season, I am not entirely sure how this would end up curving out. I suspect that on turn 3 we might have 1 creature out to tap with any consistency, which is an on theme but worse Rampant Growth. The sweet spot is 2 creatures, and 3+ is excellent. I guess my understanding for the deck is to be relatively low MV evasive creatures and curving out. I would have voted nay on Harvest because of the mechanical plan not quite aligning well enough. It is definitely in the theme of the deck, but at least as I understand the direction, I think it's a bit clunky. If the planned curve went higher, or the ramp was intended to focus on mana dorks/early token swarm, then I would revise my assessment.

Edit: what I meant to say and forgot was that the plan here is much less commander centric, so I am try to figure out what ramp we want in order to hit what mana and when. We...don't have a curve yet, so this feels very disjointed and we will tend towards good stuff and flying dorks. But then why, exactly, are we ramping in the first place instead of planning to draw and hit land drops?

[Henlock]

I actually agrer that starting on ramp is a bit odd, I'm not voting on ramp carda because I don't have the cards there to better decide what we need.

[3drinks]

This doesn't feel like it's got the same magic of the first activity, people is all over with wildly different ideas of making a good deck or what a good deck even is. I'm not sure I feel like this should continue lest more drama unfold as tensions worsen and expectations vary wildly into a project no one even recognizes because it's not what we would have done. Idk. I'm just getting bad vibes because I'm not in the same bellpark as anyone else and i really don't want to further alienate the community. Maybe I'm misreading, I just get the sense that I don't fit here and maybe it's best if I step back, since it's me that has the problem.

[Crazy Monkey]

I definitely don't think that the hiccups on this thread have been due to the participants, much less the organizer @3drinks. The only point of disagreement I have is on the plan to start with a card category, and even there it's just which specific category for this case. The frustration/misalignment is mostly caused by the commanders that give very little direction, so there isn't a cohesive concept like the first deck.

I think if we could all be more diplomatic/intentional in how we support or shoot down cards, then we can work through the mud that is these commanders. Instead of autoincludes and trash, describe the why and what your personal vision for the deck may be. It's needed context that helps inform the reader on your logic. Basically, if anyone choses to give more feedback than yea/nay, try to give the full thought process.

I will agree with some of the feedback that 75%, to me, is a very open ended concept. I basically treat it as "as powerful as possible within the overall and sub themes" for a deck. Add some vague budget limits and you have a deck plan. For example in some of the mpre contentious cards so far, Arcum's Astrolabe is outside the theme that I understood, while Harvest Season is on theme but a bit under the mechanical/power target. Maraleaf Pixie is that sweet spot (imo) of hitting the flying theme, being low MV, and ramping.

I guess one method that we could take is try for a mulligan on one if the commanders, but within the same color identity? Just to see if that results in a more cohesive plan that people can see with sufficiently similar intent? Alternatively we could pause on ramp and go to card advantage or some other category.

[RedCheese]

The issue is that the picked commander(s) is ass. Maybe we should focus first on the deck's theme or goal. We decided on sultai fliers so maybe we should go for it first and fill the rest with the generic options when we satisfied with the deck's core.

[Legend]

I promised myself I wouldn't just nominate staples . . .

Me too. I'd rather have a lower powered deck than one that I could copy off of EDHR.

Maraleaf Pixie Yay. It ramps and jives with the blue commander. And it's the kind of card that typically goes unnoticed. Worst case scenario, someone gets suspicious and wastes a removal spell on it. Very nice find.

I nominate Spring // Mind. Preferable to a 3 rock because shuffling is good with scrying and so is drawing cards.

[Legend]

Maybe we're overthinking it. Let's just nominate cards, finish the deck, and move on to the next one. It's all good. 🙂

[duducrash]

The v01 of the deck didnt have the same debate because we had nowhere to run. We had to do a spellslinger deck with token subthemes.

I think if we have a v03 the first order of action should be to vote on themes and subthemes. And then go from there.

I like Harvest season. we are going wide and low to the ground yay.
Yay pixie.
Yay skyshroud and 3 visits.

I'll hold on crop rotation for now. I like the card but only if we have utility lands

[3drinks]

I could agree to respin the random wheel after work this evening. Because I agree this is such a vague theme and tbf underpowered set of commanders which is leading to our wildly different directions and thematic philosophies. Contrasted to Livaan that gave us a much more defined direction.

So let's call a mulligan on this and I'll come with a rewrite. I think there's also a pretty healthy discussion to be had about the approach to deck building, we use, such as the apparently hotly contested snow approach that I had assumed was just the hands down best way to build the framework. I'm open to the discussion. What are we trying to do here? I want our finished product to be something that anyone can follow my moxfield link and sleeve up and start playing, while contributing meaningfully at all stages of the game. That to me means a reasonably consistent level of interaction with all situations that would pop up.

I suppose earlier I made assumptions to expected power level, and that was my fault for not explaining that definition clearly enough.

[3drinks]

I promised myself I wouldn't just nominate staples . . .

Me too. I'd rather have a lower powered deck than one that I could copy off of EDHR.

I want our finished product to be something that anyone can follow my moxfield link and sleeve up and start playing, while contributing meaningfully at all stages of the game. That to me means a reasonably consistent level of interaction with all situations that would pop up.

I suppose earlier I made assumptions to expected power level, and that was my fault for not explaining that definition clearly enough.

I think this is our bottleneck.

[Crazy Monkey]

Upon reflection, I agree that there are at least two camps with different expectations for the result. I know that my own deckbuilding style would tend to agree more with the "build the without goalposts", as that is the method I tend to use in my own deckbuilding. I have a general idea of the type of game it should play, but where ever the themes limit me, that's just an acceptable loss in capabilities or power level. This is more aligned with the first of those two camps that were quoted, but that's just my personal, default deckbuilding method.

That said, I really like the concept of having all the community deckbuild results being able to play games against each other, which means that they would need some generic fenceposts, even if the actual cards try to avoid generic good stuff. I was planning to nominate Faerie Macabre in this iterations graveyard interaction, for example.

I think, if we do intend these decks to be a semi-intentional metagame of similar power, we should lay down a common set of expectations. My local group runs decks from sub-precon power level up to cEDH, and we pregame discuss things like critical turn, quantity and average MV of interaction, winning turn, and rate/interactability of wins. We could quantify the more general of these as a common target if we want these decks to result in some good games, to be more specific than 75%.

For example, I would estimate Livaan, Cultist of Tiamat + Cultist of the Absolute as "online" around turn 4, with options for interaction starting on turn 2. It starts threatening to remove a player on turn 5+, and only removes 1 opponent per turn. It is relatively easy to disrupt with instant speed creature removal.

If Ikra Shidiqi, the Usurper + Siani, Eye of the Storm is going to play into the same game, it would need to plan to land a card advantage engine by turn 4, have reasonable amounts of interaction either on board or less than 3 MV. This can definitely be done, but does drive the concept into a more good stuff direction.

I think the big question that everyone contributing should think about is whether these are a cohesive whole, or each one is an independent exercise. Both are fun to participate in, but I think we should have that discussion before we start asking what power level each individual deck is going to build towards.

[Legend]

I may reroll the random commander in some cases, because no one wants to see a full build for such all-stars as Tobias Andrion or Lord Magnus, of course.

The same can go for uninteresting partners/backgrounds AFAIC. The first community deck was a bit of a challenge, but still fun because the two cards at least had some synergy. The second one was a straight up nonbo. THAT was the problem, IMO. Not anything you did or didn't do.

As far as power level, strategies, etc. I'll adapt to the meta. 😎

[3drinks]

I may reroll the random commander in some cases, because no one wants to see a full build for such all-stars as Tobias Andrion or Lord Magnus, of course.

The same can go for uninteresting partners/backgrounds AFAIC. The first community deck was a bit of a challenge, but still fun because the two cards at least had some synergy. The second one was a straight up nonbo. THAT was the problem, IMO. Not anything you did or didn't do.

As far as power level, strategies, etc. I'll adapt to the meta. 😎

Good to know, a great learning experience tbh. So there's going to be a bit more control on my part in the future rather than just whatever the RNG says.

[Gentle Giant]

Agreed with the discussion following my post: theme needs to be clearer (Sultai flyers was still too loose apparently). We can try to drill down on power level, but I'd hesitate to say that we need to keep them in the same ballpark: that's another criterium which will make building these more difficult than it needs to be.

Concerning power level: you are definitely not the issue @3drinks, not is anyone else in this thread. You've undertaken something very cool and as the previous posts have shown we're here for it

I want our finished product to be something that anyone can follow my moxfield link and sleeve up and start playing, while contributing meaningfully at all stages of the game. That to me means a reasonably consistent level of interaction with all situations that would pop up.

I do have some questions after reading this, and please don't read anything behind them, see it as me playing a naive bystander:
- What is, in your eyes, a meaningful contribution to the game? Being in pole position for a couple of turn cycles? Answering table-wide problematic permanents?
- What's a reasonably consistent level of interaction? Do we need to be able to answer someone's Chulane each turn cycle for example?
- What are 'all situations'? How hypothetical can the situation be for us to be able to need to answer it?
- What kind of decks should our decks be able to handle? A stockpile Korvold/Prosper/Koma?

I'm asking this because you quoted your answer and someone else's as though they are different, but on a surface level, they aren't necessarily different. Even a low powered deck can contribute meaningfully to a game at all stages and have interaction for a myriad of situations. It might have to eschew progressing their own game plan for a turn to do so, but it can have interaction nonetheless.

[RxPhantom]

I think if we could all be more diplomatic/intentional in how we support or shoot down cards, then we can work through the mud that is these commanders. Instead of autoincludes and trash, describe the why and what your personal vision for the deck may be. It's needed context that helps inform the reader on your logic. Basically, if anyone choses to give more feedback than yea/nay, try to give the full thought process.

I think this is the crux of the problem. Calling things trash or taking things personally just doesn't make for a fun or productive collaboration. Harvest Season, for example, is dope, has a high ceiling, and is just different than the Cultivates of the world. Why would I want to put an idea out there if it's just going to be crapped on? Feels bad, man.

Other than coming to a consensus on Sultai skies, we really didn't discuss what else we wanted the deck to do. We didn't listen to each other, we just spoke into the void. If I have an offbeat or not-so obvious nomination, I make a point to give an explanation that I hope is read and not immediately dismissed out of hand for not being a staple. Similarly, if I'm going to nay something, I'll give a polite explanation, normally one that includes a caveat that I may change my vote after more discussion.

All we need to do is listen and be cool to each other.

[3drinks]

Okay, that's what I meant then. How is Harvest Season something we can rely on? It's a variable card they wants us to have typically attacked but not strictly speaking creatures, in order to utilize it. When I want to ramp, I want to do it early to get ahead. When I just want cards late, I want cards in hand, not an assortment of lands on board to overflood my board. When I read harvest season, I don't get that. I don't understand the justifications others had for it, of everything I could do, it reads the worst of any effect it's trying to provide. But everyone was clamouring for it. I got the impression that more and more people wanted it solely because it's not in {deck ×}, and to me that sounded a lot like some anti net deck rhetoric rather than if the card fit and was correct to play.

If we're wanting swingy, or effects that can yield different results every time they're cast that's fine, but knowing that ahead of time would help someone like me to better tailor suggestions.

That's an awful lot of text to say "I don't understand why this card is good and/or best in class to justify the slot over another more guaranteed card. Please explain the reasoning."

I think I've done that right?

[RxPhantom]

Perhaps ramp/fixing should've been our penultimate concern (before lands, of course). In the case of Harvest Season specifically, its utility would only become clear once the rest of the deck came together. As for something being "best in class," I didn't think the bar was that high. We're aiming for 75%-ish, right? Also, if it gets nayed into oblivion, that's fine too. I'd prefer if nays are supported with the logic behind them, however brief. If you don't like it, nay it. If you do, yay it. But let's have some polite, substantive discussion.

Good golly does this combination suck though.