30+ Creature Type Changeling Tribal

[materpillar]

I don't remember why, but Ur-Dragon was one of the two precons I bought that year (Inalla being the other), so he's just laying around. I like the idea of using the Ur-Dragon as a potential wincon. I'll ponder your suggestions. Not changes I have to make any time soon, and I'll incorporate your feedback about the manabase. Question - protection and resiliency was a concern in your deck. Steely Resolve have a place in there? Or is the loss of self-targeting too much.

I think in terms of sheer power level running Elephant Graveyard/Swarmyard is probably stronger since they are lands that do similar things (although they have a harder time protecting The Ur-Dragon). Personally though, Walker of Secret Ways is a pet card for me and I'd much rather run it than Steely Resolve.

That being said, I should definitely add that card to the primer it could be fantastic in certain metagames. I think its definitely worth a shot in your build, you'll just need a handful of different card choices than me.

[Tribbles]

Has anybody else seen Hofri Ghostforge? It's a bit of an anthem and gives some decent keywords to changelings, but it's really going to let us double our ETB triggers, provided we have some sacrifice outlet to make our creatures die. I see this being an amazing engine in combination with Haakon in those types of decks. He works well with Dwarven support, but doesn't have an activated ability to jam with Magda, unfortunately. Any other synergies I'm missing?

(It also fills a 5cmc creature slot I've been sorely lacking in my Haakon/birthing pod build!)

What other Strixhaven cards have people seen that might be relevant to our shenanigans?


(Aside: I pulled off The World Tree the other night in a game where I had Dragon Tempest already on the board. For those who might not be aware of the combo, it's basically a nuke.)

[materpillar]

Has anybody else seen Hofri Ghostforge? It's a bit of an anthem and gives some decent keywords to changelings, but it's really going to let us double our ETB triggers, provided we have some sacrifice outlet to make our creatures die. I see this being an amazing engine in combination with Haakon in those types of decks. He works well with Dwarven support, but doesn't have an activated ability to jam with Magda, unfortunately. Any other synergies I'm missing?

(It also fills a 5cmc creature slot I've been sorely lacking in my Haakon/birthing pod build!)

What other Strixhaven cards have people seen that might be relevant to our shenanigans?

Dwarven Recruiter finds him, but other than that I think you've got him pegged pretty well. He'll likely be a really solid addition to the Haakon, Stromgald Scourge builds.

(Aside: I pulled off The World Tree the other night in a game where I had Dragon Tempest already on the board. For those who might not be aware of the combo, it's basically a nuke.)

Yup, I've found activating The World Tree basically just kills the table, with Dragon Tempest and 15 changelings hitting the battlefield your clocking a sweet 225 damage. The funniest thing about activating The World Tree to me is that I also find The Scarab God on top of my pile of changelings.

[Tribbles]

Dwarven Recruiter finds him, but other than that I think you've got him pegged pretty well. He'll likely be a really solid addition to the Haakon, Stromgald Scourge builds.

I think a good card to pair with this would be He Who Hungers. You can make use of those spirits (changelings, your Elder Pine of Jukai, or even himself!) for some control, in addition to getting the Soulshift trigger to get a Spirit back to hand from the graveyard. Plus he'd be a 4/3 hasty flying trampler. Expensive though, as both would be at the 5cmc slot.

Yup, I've found activating The World Tree basically just kills the table, with Dragon Tempest and 15 changelings hitting the battlefield your clocking a sweet 225 damage. The funniest thing about activating The World Tree to me is that I also find The Scarab God on top of my pile of changelings.

Haha, yeah, just when your opponents think it couldn't be any more ridiculous. I've yet to pull this off with a Maskwood Nexus in play. I imagine dumping half your deck onto the board is a potent hit of dopamine.

[offspring]

Well. The tribal thing is out.

http://mythicspoiler.com/stx/cards/blexvexingpest.html

While I like the janky creature types listed, the card overall is meh I'm afraid. The team boost isn't what I'm here for, lifegain isn't my thing, and for carddraw I'd prefer Liliana's Contract probably. Bit of a letdown, unfortunately.

[Tribbles]

Mentor's Guidance looks interesting. It's almost a guaranteed copy in this deck for at least a bit more advantage. Might be interesting with a few Magecraft cards. Adding in a small Spirit engine might be interesting, given me now have Hofri Ghostforge, Orvar, the All-Form, Quintorious, Field Historian (in Haakon builds), and the like - chance to bring in Drogskol Captain too? Just something I've given a bit of thought to recently.

[materpillar]

Mentor's Guidance looks interesting. It's almost a guaranteed copy in this deck for at least a bit more advantage. Might be interesting with a few Magecraft cards. Adding in a small Spirit engine might be interesting, given me now have Hofri Ghostforge, Orvar, the All-Form, Quintorious, Field Historian (in Haakon builds), and the like - chance to bring in Drogskol Captain too? Just something I've given a bit of thought to recently.

I've never been a fan of Drogskol Captain and friends. In my experience no one bother using removal on Changelings (other than Morophon, the Boundless). I like Rattlechains though because giving Spirits flash has pretty huge upside more so than +1/+1.

Mentor's Guidance seems playable but week. Scry 2, draw 2 is fine. I think Glimpse the Cosmos is way way better as its very close to scry 6 draw 2.

In other news, we've got a really busted new toy.

[Tribbles]

That card is insane. Kill on sight or board wipe at minimum. Actually ridiculous.

[offspring]

Hahaha, oh boy. This is exactly the type of card that I dislike because it 'only' poops out dumb big bodies. But it just might be too good to skip. I just already know that I'll have a hard time cutting something for it.

[Tribbles]

It would work great with Serpent of Yawning Depths and Whelming Wave and the like. Maybe a small sea monster or combat-specific package is in order?

Quest for Ula's Temple looks like it might be spicy.

Also, could maybe also use a cheeky Koma, Cosmos Serpent as a sacrifice outlet for things like Hofri Ghostforge and Haakon

[Sefir]

Is mama kraken better than Utvara Hellkite though? I am not so sure and it is an available option since forever.

[materpillar]

Is mama kraken better than Utvara Hellkite though? I am not so sure and it is an available option since forever.

Utvara Hellkite has a better body, is easier to trigger and creates better tokens (since they trigger the hellkite much easier next turn). That being said 5U is a lot easier than 5RR/6RR (depending on general). Spawning Kraken is better to put into play off The Ur-Dragon because you miss the first wave of Utvara Hellkite triggers but won't miss the Krakens (assuming you're swinging in with Changelings also).


I personally don't run Utvara Hellkite because I think it's worse than for my build than Lathliss, Dragon Queen/Dragon Tempest/Spit Flame. Spawning Kraken isn't fighting with any of those cards for a slot.

[benjameenbear]

Congrats on achieving Primer status! Beautifully explained and visually appealing and I think I actually might give your list a try in the future!

[materpillar]

Congrats on achieving Primer status! Beautifully explained and visually appealing and I think I actually might give your list a try in the future!

Weeeeeeeeeeee! It's a blast to play, I'd definitely recommend giving it a whirl sometime.

[materpillar]

Played a game this evening vs Gargos, Vicious Watcher, Lazav, Dimir Mastermind and Pramikon, Sky Rampart

Game ended when I got attacked by a 72/72 Managorger Hydra (that grew so big because it was being held back by Peacekeeper. I responded to the attack by using Shapesharer to copy Nyxbloom Ancient twice. Then, I cracked The World Tree for a bunch of Changelings and The Scarab God and Moritte of the Frost (copying Nyxloom). Used The Scarab God to reanimate Patron of the Vein to save myself. The next player used Akroma's Vengeance to clear out my board, except for Moritte of the Frost that I regenerated with Swarmyard and a Mirror Entity that had a Darksteel Mutation from turn 4. Those two creatures plus The Scarab God were enough to kill Pramikon, Sky Rampart and get a concession from the Lazav, Dimir Mastermind. (Gargos, Vicious Watcher drew 61 cards with Return of the Wildspeaker in response to removal for fun and decked himself.)


Patron of the Vein continues to perform. I got it in play with The Ur-Dragon to clear out a huge hydra blocker with reach. Emiel the Blessed blinked Patron to kill a hydra that was going to fight one of my creatures. Then, The Scarab God reanimated it to save me from a lethal swing.

[offspring]

It's weird, I just can not, in no way, see how Patron of the Vein can be good in this deck, like ever. Don't get me wrong: it's not that I don't want to believe you, it's just that 6 mana removal feels really cluncky and anthem effects have never done it for me. Might try it out some time though since you're so enthusiastic about it.

But most importantly: YAY PRIMER! Congrats @materpillar, keep up the good work.

[ISBPathfinder]

It's weird, I just can not, in no way, see how Patron of the Vein can be good in this deck, like ever. Don't get me wrong: it's not that I don't want to believe you, it's just that 6 mana removal feels really cluncky and anthem effects have never done it for me. Might try it out some time though since you're so enthusiastic about it.

But most importantly: YAY PRIMER! Congrats @materpillar, keep up the good work.

I am kind of in the same. The time to spin it up and make it relevant feels really slow I get that it can add up counters but on average a single +1/+1 counter on changelings doesn't feel like its going to be enough to make them impressive. Six mana sorcery speed creature spot removal that is a simple destroy effect is also a bit lackluster to me.

I see what it could do over a few turns in play, I just don't like what it brings immediately when it is cast.

[offspring]

Surely, the meta will make a big difference as well. My meta is pretty quick, so I have to run a tight list to keep up and still be janky.

[materpillar]

It's weird, I just can not, in no way, see how Patron of the Vein can be good in this deck, like ever. Don't get me wrong: it's not that I don't want to believe you, it's just that 6 mana removal feels really cluncky and anthem effects have never done it for me. Might try it out some time though since you're so enthusiastic about it.

But most importantly: YAY PRIMER! Congrats @materpillar, keep up the good work.

I am kind of in the same. The time to spin it up and make it relevant feels really slow I get that it can add up counters but on average a single +1/+1 counter on changelings doesn't feel like its going to be enough to make them impressive. Six mana sorcery speed creature spot removal that is a simple destroy effect is also a bit lackluster to me.

I see what it could do over a few turns in play, I just don't like what it brings immediately when it is cast.

I'm pretty sure Patron of the Vein would be pretty awful in your build ISB. Similarly, I don't know that it'd be great in your build either offspring. Basically everyone always says exactly what you guys are saying. It should be a lack luster, extremely slow removal spell.

Individually, I've found that spells in my build are extremely low impact until they hit a critical mass and then they become overwhelming. A vast majority of the cards in my deck are pretty underwhelming and don't provide much board impact when cast by The Ur-Dragon's trigger. Of my 5 drops+ Liliana's Contract is redundant because I'm drawing cards. Cryptic Gateway is redundant because I could have just played whatever with The Ur-Dragon and I probably don't have untapped Changelings. Kindred Discovery does nothing immediately, Lathliss, Dragon Queen, Reaper King, and Gilt-Leaf Archdruid need follow up. The Scarab God won't have any excess mana to sink into him. Sliver Hivelord and Tolsimir, Friend to Wolves are decent. The best two permanents for their board impact are Kogla, the Titan Ape and Patron of the Vein.

Off of The Ur-Dragon, Patron of the Vein provides immediate impact. Then, The Ur-Dragon is floating around as a huge threat. Patron of the Vein sitting around is a huge threat because if I've gone somewhat wide all my random 1/1 Changelings will start getting swoll. So it has immediate board impact and it doubles the amount of game ending threats on my board. Then, it also single handedly houses aristocrat decks. Putting it into play for free just provides so much value that I don't mind having it sit around in my hand until I line up an Ur-Dragon trigger.

Then, I've also got The Scarab God, Emiel the Blessed, Cryptic Gateway, Glasspool Mimic // Glasspool Shore and Moritte of the Frost to push its powerlevel more. Ignoring silly specific stuff like Maskwood Nexus + Moggcatcher/Didgeridoo. Sometimes you just need removal and the floor of killing a thing for 4BB is a pretty poor rate but I've done that a handful of times.

TL;DR - I'll keep monitoring Patron but I haven't been unhappy with it yet. It fills a pretty specific niche of "fantastic with the Ur-Dragon" which most of my other cards just don't, has a handful of blink/clone synergies and it's tolerable without support. If you're not running the Ur-Dragon, have no additional synergies or have a ton of bomb hits already it will probably not perform nearly as well.

Surely, the meta will make a big difference as well. My meta is pretty quick, so I have to run a tight list to keep up and still be janky.

I mostly play in "low" on PlayEDH. It seems like most decks can goldfish the table out around Turn 8 with a decent draw and games really last past turn 14, usually ending closer to turn 10. Not the 20+ turn craziness of really low power voltron stuff but not extremely efficient wincons either.

[ISBPathfinder]

I am curious as to where you are at on Crux of Fate. I looked back and early in your list you were running it but at some point it seems to have gone away. In looking for it I also stumbled across Widespread Brutality and now I need to make room for that (on top of ordering one cus lol I don't own that).

Being that your commander is a dragon it feels like it would fit your list fairly good being something you could cast on commander + changelings and still preserve your board. I guess if you see a ton of dragon decks in a meta it could also be bad but I could see it being good otherwise. You do run a lot more tribal buffs than I do but it seems like a good commander + changeling kind of card.

[materpillar]

I am curious as to where you are at on Crux of Fate. I looked back and early in your list you were running it but at some point it seems to have gone away. In looking for it I also stumbled across Widespread Brutality and now I need to make room for that (on top of ordering one cus lol I don't own that).

Being that your commander is a dragon it feels like it would fit your list fairly good being something you could cast on commander + changelings and still preserve your board. I guess if you see a ton of dragon decks in a meta it could also be bad but I could see it being good otherwise. You do run a lot more tribal buffs than I do but it seems like a good commander + changeling kind of card.

There's a handful of reasons I don't run it. The easiest is I have a hard cut-off of 4 cards per creature type and I think it is lower impact than all of the ones I'm running.

If I remember correctly I eventually replaced Crux of Fate with Widespread Brutality but I was having a ton of trouble casting Brutality as a result of my bad manabase. Brutality is hilarious by the way, especially with Changeling Hero/Cairn Wanderer because the creature does the damage, so you can gain a massive pile of life with lifelink. Anyway, since the mana cost was too rough I cut Widespread Brutality for Realm-Cloaked Giant // Cast Off which is basically the same card. However, I just found that I didn't like drawing it basically ever. I found it significantly more effective to commit more to the board and outpace other decks than to try and board control at the cost of my own creatures. Hence, I'd rather have Spit Flame which I can use to pick off multiple creatures if needed.

From a strict power-level perspective Crux of Fate is likely better than Endemic Plague. Endemic Plague just gets significantly higher style points and has the very real upside of blowing out random elf/sliver tribal decks. I have also used Amoeboid Changeling to make The Ur-Dragon have no creature types before casting it which is stupid funny.

Another thing that I've noticed is that because my deck commits to the board so heavily it incentives other people to wrath. As such my opponents take a lot of collateral damage wraths that are primarily targeted at keeping me down.

So between Endemic Plague, Knowledge Exploitation (which can pretty consistently wrath if I need it to), other people wrathing me, and my pile of spot removal I rarely find myself wanting any more wrath spells.

On a side note: getting Crux of Fate cast against me can be a pretty huge beating.

[ISBPathfinder]

Have you ever given any consideration to Omnath, Locus of the Roil? I kicked the idea around a little bit in my Sliver Hivelord build but I have the 10 fetches, I am also ramping lands, and +/+ counters probably matter a little more in a build with wraths and indestructible creatures. I just thought that the ETB removal and later card draw / pump off of land drops all seemed fairly good for the mana.

I felt like for the mana I was paying that even just doing 2-3 damage on ETB was kind of fine. Plus its more potentially tribal effects that also has draw to it. I think I like it a lot more than some of the random when a creature of this type enters draw given how many more lands and land ramp / getting effects I have in the deck. I might have to pick up a copy and test it out at some point.

Sorry in advance if there is some in depth discussion on this card somewhere. I will admit right now I haven't read all of the comments here lol.

[materpillar]

Have you ever given any consideration to Omnath, Locus of the Roil? I kicked the idea around a little bit in my Sliver Hivelord build but I have the 10 fetches, I am also ramping lands, and +/+ counters probably matter a little more in a build with wraths and indestructible creatures. I just thought that the ETB removal and later card draw / pump off of land drops all seemed fairly good for the mana.

I felt like for the mana I was paying that even just doing 2-3 damage on ETB was kind of fine. Plus its more potentially tribal effects that also has draw to it. I think I like it a lot more than some of the random when a creature of this type enters draw given how many more lands and land ramp / getting effects I have in the deck. I might have to pick up a copy and test it out at some point.

Sorry in advance if there is some in depth discussion on this card somewhere. I will admit right now I haven't read all of the comments here lol.

I considered Omnath, Locus of the Roil briefly when it came out but I never tested it. I guess my easiest comparison is Patron of the Vein. Patron costs 2 more but at the same time is less color intensive. Patron is guaranteed to kill anything I want as opposed to 2-5 damage. Patron immediately puts a +1/+1 counter on every changeling. If you want those counters immediately, Omnath is closer to a 5-drop making his comparison even worse, and in the best case scenario he'll only max out at 3 +1/+1 counters a turn which is a way worse ceiling than Patron's. Patron also randomly houses graveyard decks.

Omnath, Locus of the Roil can go face, which can be very relevant. He has that and draw a card for landfall if you have 8 lands. My deck only has Bounty of Skemfar (which is still just in "testing") and The Ur-Dragon triggers (pretty poor but I have done it) to land ramp. I don't think my deck consistently hits 8 land drops enough for Omnath to be worth it.

He also is competing with Tolsimir, Friend to Wolves. Tolsimir is similarly removal but also life gain, part of an infinite combo and tutorable with Skyshroud Poacher. I think those upsides will benefit me more than drawing cards in the super late game.

TL;DR: Omnath seems worth if you can trigger his landfall draw a card bit. I don't think my deck can do that nearly often enough. A side note, Dragon Tempest gives all your Changelings Omnath's ETB. That card is way strong. It's strong enough that I think Omnath is better than I originally gave him credit.

[ISBPathfinder]

Omnath is fairly self contained though which is what I like about him. He is a mix of multiple effects and at most stages of the game he pays for himself quite quickly. I know you are fond of it but Dragon Tempest requires you to cast changelings / dragons after it which means having more in hand as well as adding a tax of two mana and a card to doing so. That isn't the end of the world but its not self contained and it requires multiple factors to work 1) more dragons / changelings to be cast and 2) a dragon / changeling count in play. It does almost nothing on its own which is why I am not a big fan of it. I get what it "can" do but I always try to look at cards from the standpoint of if I can't stick anything other than this card + my commander is it impressive. Its better for you than it would be for me given your commander is a dragon and sort of a draw engine but I still find it to be a bit slow given how much casting your commander is.

A bit more on topic though, I like omnath because at most every stage of the game I see very relevant things that he does. Like you said, he on his own triggers some removal but he still has two more modes and I think all of the things he does are all decent effects. Its possible that the +/+ counters are a little better for me than they would be for you given the sticky nature of my creatures via my commander choice.

[MeowZeDung]

Just saw that this got Primer status. Congrats! It's obvious to anyone who's paid any attention in a variety of threads that you really put your heart and soul into this deck and thinking through changeling tribal in general. Well-deserved.

I also noticed you included my General Tazri take. I really loved the idea of that deck, but boy did it need some more tuning. Especially now that Kaldheim is a thing. Plus, there's the reality that Tazri is probably just better off as a cEDH commander or doing other wonky stuff like hidden commander Zada, Hedron Grinder. The ol' changeling tutor trick is probably better left to the sliver general and Tazri can be about her Hagra Diabolist/Halimar Excavator wins elsewhere