Unreleased and New Card Discussion

[kirkusjones]

Cultivator Colossus seems like a decent mid-late game bomb for Lands decks…I'll definitely be giving it a whirl in Archelos.

[BeneTleilax]

Perhaps my phrasing was not particularly great, but "archenemy from any creature deck" is different than "archenemy." Lots of decks just don't care if you're killing all the creatures, or are willing to let you get out of hand because you're slowing the game down and they want to play slower.

Then that goes against your earlier point that this ruins the game for the whole table.

Grinding out a victory where no one gets creatures ever again and you slowly win with slug beat downs is substantially different.

That said, I think it's pretty feasible to either 1) occasionally win a game of archenemy due to a combination of good beat and bad beats for opponents, 2) win a game where people realize they need to pressure your life total too late, and not be pubstomping necessarily. People make a lot of bad decisions.

Do you see how we've gone from "toxic and uninteractible control keystone" to "sometimes wins games if it gets real lucky or the table all plays badly"? Or from "locks everyone out and slowly wins off commander damage" to "maybe hoses some creature decks too hard, but the other decks can cope"?

[Mookie]

My final thoughts re: Toxrill, the Corrosive - strong reanimation target (an upgraded mix of Sheoldred, Whispering One and Massacre Wurm), but I'm dubious of any 7-drop in the command zone.

As for new stuff....

• Inspired Idea is some interesting design. Better card draw spells exist, but I could see there being some decks with a low enough curve to not care about their hand size. Thirst for Knowledge seems easier though.
• Ulvenwald Oddity is mildly interesting as a beater that scales into the topend - as a 4 mana hasty 4/4, it draws comparison to Questing Beast, but its transform ability gives it additional relevance in the lategame. 7 mana is a lot though.
• Cultivator Colossus is sweet. I wouldn't expect to have many lands left in hand at 7 mana, but if you're playing something like Sasaya, Orochi Ascendant // Sasaya's Essence, this seems insane. Ulvenwald Hydra seems more consistent though.
• Horrifying Dollhouse is sweet. to activate is quite cheap for a repeatable source of reanimation, and if you're an artifact-based deck, the tokens can be quite threatening. Obviously also great in decks that want exotic tokens.
• Retrieve looks solid - most green double-Regrowth effects usually cost 5+ mana. It is a little narrow in what it can get back though.

[pokken]

Perhaps my phrasing was not particularly great, but "archenemy from any creature deck" is different than "archenemy." Lots of decks just don't care if you're killing all the creatures, or are willing to let you get out of hand because you're slowing the game down and they want to play slower.

Then that goes against your earlier point that this ruins the game for the whole table.

Grinding out a victory where no one gets creatures ever again and you slowly win with slug beat downs is substantially different.

That said, I think it's pretty feasible to either 1) occasionally win a game of archenemy due to a combination of good beat and bad beats for opponents, 2) win a game where people realize they need to pressure your life total too late, and not be pubstomping necessarily. People make a lot of bad decisions.

Do you see how we've gone from "toxic and uninteractible control keystone" to "sometimes wins games if it gets real lucky or the table all plays badly"? Or from "locks everyone out and slowly wins off commander damage" to "maybe hoses some creature decks too hard, but the other decks can cope"?

I think you're kinda stripping the discussion of all nuance here - there'll be all kinds of games. Some of them everyone will have creatures and the player will have a good hand and steamroll them slowly. Some games 2 of the 3 players will be shut off by Toxrill, the Corrosive leaving the Tox player to 1v1 the person who doesn't care. Some games will be functionally pubstomping.

I never said "uninteractible" - the point is that its design makes it so you can win the interaction battle by being a control bomb (drawing cards, killing the board).

"maybe hoses some creature decks too hard, but the other decks can cope" is close I guess, it's just a kind of questionable design

What are the good, memorable games going to be like with this commander? It isn't designed well to create good games. It's going to be:

* Archenemy my commander gets removed 3 times and I do nothing
* Archenemy I get aggro'd out by everyone with creatures who would like to get to play the game
* Archenemy I'm playing too many good control spells and become a pubstomper
* People realized too late but still have to sit there for a half hour while I kill them with slugs

It's a combination of whackamole commander with stax attached. It's crappy design for a commander.

as a bomb creature it's actually pretty damn cool

[folding_music]

someone at WOTC is trying to fill out a green stompy highlander deck solely with one drops that add +1/+1 counters to themselves

[BeneTleilax]

It's a combination of whackamole commander with stax attached. It's crappy design for a commander.

I think it will work as a top-end threat among other top-end threats in a general UB control deck, where it potentially pulls removal away from other bombs. Also, as a wincon for slug tribal meme decks. All of my decks are creature decks, to some or another extent, and I'm not really concerned about this guy. If anything seems problematic, Millicent seems like she might be a bit hard to meaningfully remove given her cost reduction.

[Hawk]

So far, this set is a total snooze for me. The only card that's even piqued my interest thus far is the most recently spoiled Honored Heirloom - I despise 3 CMC rocks as much as most folks, but this is graveyard hate on a Manalith. I'm into it specifically because in Quintorius, that ability is "2T: Make a 4/2 spirit".

[darrenhabib]

Necroduality has some infinite combos with either Bladewing the Risen, Phyrexian Delver, Rot Hulk. You need a sacrifice outlet to respond to the Necroduality trigger so that the token can target these in graveyard.
Obviously Phyrexian Delver is going to kill you unless you have some way of gaining life through the process i.e. you need return something like Gray Merchant of Asphodel as well.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

Toxrill seems like the type of commander who will hopefully end up an elk, a coward, or totally useless. I know I'll be saving my removal up if I see it.

[toctheyounger]

Toxrill seems like the type of commander who will hopefully end up an elk, a coward, or totally useless. I know I'll be saving my removal up if I see it.

Throw it in the moon, I say.

[Mookie]

Toxrill seems like the type of commander who will hopefully end up an elk, a coward, or totally useless. I know I'll be saving my removal up if I see it.

Throw it in the moon, I say.

It's technically a mollusk, but I suspect many will confuse Toxrill for a bug.

[Myllior]

I think it will work as a top-end threat among other top-end threats in a general UB control deck, where it potentially pulls removal away from other bombs.

This is my thought on Toxrill as well. I like that it won't lead to all-or-nothing decks that are solely dependent on their commander to function. I think it would be fun to build a UB control shell with a horror sub-theme, since many of the good horrors are within the Dimir colour identity.

Throw it in the moon, I say.

I will hereafter refer to this as The Celestial Yeet.

[Mookie]

More stuff....

• Headless Rider is Xathrid Necromancer for zombie decks. Only triggers off nontoken creatures though. (also, I just noticed that the tokens from Xathrid Necromancer enter tapped - who knew?)
• Glorious Sunrise is... interesting. Five mana is a little clunky for any of these effects, but flexibility is good. It also sort of provides a mana discount due to its second ability, assuming you still have lands untapped.
• Henrika Domnathi amuses me, if only as an enabler for Vampire Nighthawk tribal. I feel like I've seen a lot of 'start of combat / end of turn' effects recently - given how slow upkeep effects tend to be in EDH, I won't complain.
• Thirst for Discovery is Thirst for Knowledge // Compulsive Research, but you need to discard a basic land, which makes it seem a bit weaker. I may test it in Thada though - seems better for monocolor decks.
• Hero's Downfall is getting a rarity downfall to uncommon.
• Stensia Uprising is one of those previously-mentioned end step triggers. Sacrificing it for seven damage seems underwhelming in EDH, and I'm not sure if this effect is worth four mana in red. Hmmm...

[Gashnaw]

Toxrill is very appealing to me. At forst i was meh. Now i am interested.

[Hawk]

Thirst for Discovery is "strictly better than Compulsive Research" assuming you've got a sufficient amount of basics (and most 75% monocolor and two-color decks will, most likely). I'm a big fan.

Headless Rider seems incredible in Zombies.dec. The 3-slot tends to be really packed for Zombie decks - 3 is the magic number for most zombie lords with Lord of the Undead, Death Baron, Lord of the Accursed, Diregraf Captain, and Cemetery Reaper all at 3. Diregraf Colossus and Liliana's Standard Bearer are also on three, and the two premier zombie tribal commanders in Varina, Lich Queen and Wilhelt, the Rotcleaver really want you to curve into them with a nice board. But this thing is just so strong, and a strong contender.

Glorious Sunrise would be amazing if it was "choose two". Choose one feels pretty weak.

So far, the most exciting cards to me are the downshifts and improved art of Abrade and Hero's Downfall.

[Mookie]

I've been keeping an eye out for disturb cards to run in Brago, and Mirrorhall Mimic looks fantastic. Obviously, a four mana Clone effect isn't that exciting, and the flip side triggering on upkeep is a bit slow... but I'm a sucker for recursion loops, and flickering the aura to get a fresh clone whenever it dies seems very sweet.

....I wish any other of the disturb cards were worth consideration though - I've been pretty underwhelmed by the other options so far.

[Ulka]

I'm so excited for Bramble Wurm for Trostani, Selesnya's Voice Wurm Tribal. I'm going to love populating token copies of this.

I also think Mirrorhall Mimic will be an excellent addition to my The Unspeakable deck for a group's Worst of the Worst Commanders League. Turns out Making more copies of Spirits for my Arcane and Spirits matter deck will be amazing.

[darrenhabib]

Cultivator Colossus + Ghost Town let's you draw your whole deck. You either need to flash in Cultivator Colossus during an opponents turn somehow or use a blink effect to get the ETB.

[pokken]

Cultivator Colossus + Ghost Town let's you draw your whole deck. You either need to flash in Cultivator Colossus during an opponents turn somehow or use a blink effect to get the ETB.

I don't think that works because the trigger happens all at once. It doesn't generate a new trigger it repeats the process, so you need to have another land in your hand (for each repetition). You never get priority to activate ghost town anywhere in here afaik

[Crazy Monkey]

Cultivator Colossus + Ghost Town let's you draw your whole deck. You either need to flash in Cultivator Colossus during an opponents turn somehow or use a blink effect to get the ETB.

I don't think that works because the trigger happens all at once. It doesn't generate a new trigger it repeats the process, so you need to have another land in your hand. You never get priority to activate ghost town anywhere in here afaik.

Agreed. It would need to be something similar to "if you do then copy this ability". I am looking forward to the colossus in 69 lands meme chulane though.

[tstorm823]

I think Abundance is the meme you're looking for with Cultivator Colossus. Put every land in the library into play. Then when there aren't any lands left, stack the entire deck in whatever order you like. Then, if you had multiple lands in hand, draw a few cards from your stacked deck. There's almost certainly a way to make that deterministic if you start with like 4 lands in hand and draw any 3 cards from your library. I'm thinking Crumbling Vestige pays for Twiddle to untap Lotus Field, so you can cast Early Harvest to pay for something like Primal Surge into every creature in the deck + Concordant Crossroads.

[pokken]

Hey, an 11 mana A+B combo with a new powerful effect that drives interest in some slightly obscure old card(s)! That'll sell some packs

[Serenade]

I guess if you don't like the food angle of your BG Academy Manufactor deck led by Gyome, Master Chef, you can switch it to Old Rutstein.

I'd be fine with a Happy Mask Salesman version of the latter.

[kirkusjones]

I think Abundance is the meme you're looking for with Cultivator Colossus. Put every land in the library into play. Then when there aren't any lands left, stack the entire deck in whatever order you like. Then, if you had multiple lands in hand, draw a few cards from your stacked deck. There's almost certainly a way to make that deterministic if you start with like 4 lands in hand and draw any 3 cards from your library. I'm thinking Crumbling Vestige pays for Twiddle to untap Lotus Field, so you can cast Early Harvest to pay for something like Primal Surge into every creature in the deck + Concordant Crossroads.

An untapped Archelos, Lagoon Mystic gets the job done too. I've been looking for something convolute-ish to do with my lands build and this, along with Meloku the Clouded Mirror, Patron of the Moon, Yavimaya, Cradle of Growth and Baru, Fist of Krosa are it! Or, ya know, just Field of the Dead…

[pokken]

An untapped Archelos, Lagoon Mystic gets the job done too. I've been looking for something convolute-ish to do with my lands build and this, along with Meloku the Clouded Mirror, Patron of the Moon, Yavimaya, Cradle of Growth and Baru, Fist of Krosa are it! Or, ya know, just Field of the Dead…

Probably a Deserted Temple + something combo in there (Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx, Cabal Coffers, Gaea's Cradle, etc.). Infinite land untaps off Deserted Temple does a lot of work. With everyone's favorite Rings of Brighthearth.