Y'all are building Liesa wrong

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Dunadain
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Post by Dunadain » 4 months ago

Liesa, Shroud of Dusk is some sweet card design and I think everyone knows it. I would have brewed her ages ago, but she's such a popular commander and I'm a special snowflake, so I've steered clear.

However, every Liesa list I've played and/or seen is brimming with head-scratchers. In particular, they're all chock full of low impact punisher effects: Ankh of Mishra, Underworld Dreams, Fate Unraveler, Polluted Bonds, the list goes on.

Now, there's not actually a right or wrong way to build a commander deck, I just chose an antagonizing title for %$#% and giggles, however, I realy don't think these effects belong in Liesa.

Their are a number of reasons to run these effects in a deck, in particular aggro decks and decks that can break parity on the effects. However, Liesa is not an aggro commander, her mana cost alone pretty much excludes her. Liesa DOES break parity on symetrical punisher cards simply by having lifelink, but, to be honest, her lifelink is usually only enough to negate her own effect + the cost of recasting her, she's nothing like Torbran, Thane of Red Fell who just gets better and better the more punisher effects you have out.

I specifically want to call out Blood Artist as a powerful card that has no business being in these lists.

I've played against Liesa at least a dozen times, and I don't think I've ever seen it win. Liesa usually throws out a bunch of hateful permanents, putting her tenuously ahead since she's gaining 5 life a turn, which just forces the table to gang up on her, and she quickly dies because she's fighting off the rest of the table and her own cards. to be honest, I suspect she's still trying to follow in Kambal, Consul of Allocation's footsteps. They do share a lot of surface-level similarities, but I think they're just that: surface level, Kambal is asymetrical and much cheaper, lending itself more to an aggro-punisher style deck.

Liesa is slow, she costs 5 mana, her punisher effect will take 20 triggers to kill the table, and her mana discount ability is only usefull if games are going long enough for you to recast your commander multiple times in a game. So let's slow the game down, let's run a bunch of wipes to make sure we're getting our money's worth out of her tax evasion, let's find ways to give Liesa haste and vigilance so that we can hunker down and outlive any hate we might incur, and let's wait until Liesa's punisher ability has whittled down the table enough and we've developed mana enough to finish the table off with a Torment of Hailfire.

We can still run group slug effects, but let's only run asymetrical effects, and let's only run high impact effects, something tells me Revenge of Ravens is never going to drain enough life to justify a card in our hand, Painful Quandary, on the other hand, is a groan-inducing card for a reason.

Is this all an excuse for me to brew another slow grindy control deck? Probably, but I bet it's going to be better than every Liesa deck I've played against.

(Also, the iconic Exquisite Blood + Sanguine Bond combo is actually pretty decent in this deck, as both halves are decent, but infinite combos are cringe, so I'm not running either of them).
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You'll note their is only 3 group-slug cards (and Wound Reflection arguably belongs in the finisher category) but that's kind of the point: most group slug cards are pretty awful stand-alone cards, so I can just run the select few stellar options.

Considering the deck is hoping to go long and hoping to cast lethal Exsanguinates, 1 mana ramp like Arcane Signet are pretty anemic, instead I want to set up ramp engines, like Sword of the Animist so that I can really pull ahead on mana.

In a similar vein, I realize the swamp count is suspiciously low for Cabal Coffers, but when you look at it as a late-game combo with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and Exsanguinate, it makes a lot more sense.

I'm irrationally happy that I've finally found a home for Silversmote Ghoul, that card is so cool, but hasn't really been a good fit in any other deck I've built.

Every single wipe in this list costs 4 mana to play. Against faster decks, minimally committing to the board in the early game, and only developing once you've cast a board wipe is a pretty great way to make sure you get set up before they run you over. Unfortunately, in most decks, you can't really build around this play pattern, because your commander probably costs <=4 and you probably don't have too many wipes to choose from anyways. However, in an Orzhov deck, planning to go long with a 5 MV commander,it makes a lot of sense to make sure t4 board wipe t5 commander is on the table as often as possible, doesn't mean you have to cast a board wipe just because you can, but having the option is pretty powerful.

I'm not too sure about the Liesa buffs package I came up with though. As I identified earlier, Haste and Vigilance are very desirable keywords, so I gave a lot of weight to effects that provide both, however, it also means that a lot of them are redundant effects. Imagine drawing Swiftfoot Boots, Lightning Greaves, and Haunted Cloak in one game. It might have been wiser to look for effects that also provide a stat bonus, even if that means we can't get vigilance and haste from the same card. We do have a couple of tutors to help you find any keyword you need. Sparring Regimen in particular stood out as a pretty sweet card if I want to go that route.
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Post by yeti1069 » 4 months ago

I also don't believe I've ever seen Liesa win a game, due to both swiftly becoming archenemy, and not having many ways besides the commander to mitigate both the life lost to their own effects and that doled out from other players. Liesa gets targeted for removal a LOT in my experience.

For your deck, I see that nearly all of your card draw costs life, and I only see a few ways for you to gain life, and 2 are on sorceries you want to be using as finishers, not shoring up your dwindling life. Going partial voltron with Liesa may work, but again, removal is going to be pointed her way, especially if you're wiping the board regularly and there aren't other targets for it. Even with her discount, I don't know that I'd want to rely on a 5 mana commander as my primary means of offsetting all of the damage I'd be doing to myself. Authority of the Consuls at least would probably be solid here--it gains you life to hedge against all the self-bleeding, and makes your board wipes stronger by turning off haste as a pressuring tool.

In a similar vein, Sword of the Animist looks out of place here. Sure, if you can have Liesa stick around for a few turns, they can pair for repeated ramp, and you're looking towards the long game, but I still think you're looking at the Sword through too hopeful a lens. Starting ramp on turn 6 (and relying on no intervening removal) doesn't seem like a winning strategy. Sword of Hearth and Home is kind of in the same boat, though the protection and bigger buff make it slightly more worthwhile. However, you aren't running other creatures to carry these equipment, so you can't use them to ramp into Liesa, and can't use them until the turn after you drop her, if she's coming out on curve.

While I that while the decks jam packed with life taxing effects draw more hate, and tend to fold under that pressure, not having them means that the life loss from your commander is going to be fairly irrelevant much of the time. I would consider including at least a few more taxing effects. Underworld Dreams is one-sided, can come down early, and helps punish the decks digging for answers to your game plan while they dig. Polluted Bonds is just too slow, I think. If you could get it down reliable on turn 3, I think it might be worth including, but it doesn't curve well with your commander, and can be too easily played around when dropped on turn 5 or 6, and becomes even less valuable/dangerous as the game goes on.

Leaning into the board wipes as you are, and running as few permanents as you are, I'm surprised you're not running the two best wipes in the format--Farewell and Austere Command. Sure, they are outside of your T4-wipe, T-5 commander line, but they are very powerful and flexible. At the very least you seem to have almost 0 downside to Farewell hitting everything but enchantments, and then only if you have 1 of your 4 or so important ones in play.

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Post by Ruiner » 4 months ago

My Liesa list is very minimal on these effects, I'm not huge on leaning all in on group slug myself either. I stand by running Ankh of Mishra and Kambal, Consul of Allocation as they are low CMC so they potentially drop early and mess with a number of strategies pretty decently. The damage those two can put in can end up being fairly significant in my experience. Sheoldred, the Apocalypse is another similar card I run, but it gains life and swings for decent damage (unlike Underworld Dreams and Fate Unraveler).

The higher CMC low damage ones like Polluted Bonds I'm not a fan of as they don't tend to come down quick enough to make a significant impact in this color combo in my opinion.

Your lack of mana rocks/relying on "ramp equipment" is a bit dicey to me when you are so low on creatures that can actually wield the ramp equipment. I'm guessing you are often going to have to wait for Liesa herself to hit the board, then pay the equip cost, before you can start ramping. I'm a big fan of those cards, but I think you may need some more creatures for them to be optimal.

Also, I'd consider running Command Beacon. I've had a number of games where my life total drops to the point where Liesa's life tax would kill me, and that simple land has made a difference.

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Post by Dunadain » 4 months ago

yeti1069 wrote:
4 months ago

For your deck, I see that nearly all of your card draw costs life, and I only see a few ways for you to gain life, and 2 are on sorceries you want to be using as finishers, not shoring up your dwindling life. Going partial voltron with Liesa may work, but again, removal is going to be pointed her way, especially if you're wiping the board regularly and there aren't other targets for it. Even with her discount, I don't know that I'd want to rely on a 5 mana commander as my primary means of offsetting all of the damage I'd be doing to myself. Authority of the Consuls at least would probably be solid here--it gains you life to hedge against all the self-bleeding, and makes your board wipes stronger by turning off haste as a pressuring tool.
The plan isn't to offset life loss with Liesa, Shroud of Dusk exclusively, the plan is to offset life loss with Liesa, Shroud of Dusk carrying a Blackblade Reforged =). It might still not be enough, but if it isn't I find it hard to imagine Authority of the Consuls is going to make the difference more often than not. Admittedly, I've never played the card, but I've only seen it recover meaningful amounts of life in token decks, or in games against token decks. The stax effect also seems a bit middling.

Honestly, that's the kind of card I'm talking about in the deck tech, it says "gain life" and it has a stax effect, but it doesn't really synergise with Liesa.

If I do want more lifegain, I'll probably lean harder down the voltron route honestly. Duelist's Heritage and Flaming Fist look like they'll give much more life than authority ever could. Yes, removal is a concern, but that's what all the haste effects are for.'

Edit: It occured to me if interaction still ends up being too much of a problem, I can run some stax effects that prevent opponents from casting spells on my turn. It'll guarantee that I can get in with a hasty Liesa, and make sure I can slam my Torment of Hailfire with impunity.

In a similar vein, Sword of the Animist looks out of place here. Sure, if you can have Liesa stick around for a few turns, they can pair for repeated ramp, and you're looking towards the long game, but I still think you're looking at the Sword through too hopeful a lens. Starting ramp on turn 6 (and relying on no intervening removal) doesn't seem like a winning strategy. Sword of Hearth and Home is kind of in the same boat, though the protection and bigger buff make it slightly more worthwhile. However, you aren't running other creatures to carry these equipment, so you can't use them to ramp into Liesa, and can't use them until the turn after you drop her, if she's coming out on curve.
Like I said, this deck is going to be glacially slow, ramping on t6 is far too slow for most decks, but if your deck has 8 board wipes and 15 spot removal spells, t6 is when the game is really getting started =). I might be taking the concept too far, but I like to start with extremes and reign the deck in after testing.
While I that while the decks jam packed with life taxing effects draw more hate, and tend to fold under that pressure, not having them means that the life loss from your commander is going to be fairly irrelevant much of the time. I would consider including at least a few more taxing effects. Underworld Dreams is one-sided, can come down early, and helps punish the decks digging for answers to your game plan while they dig. Polluted Bonds is just too slow, I think. If you could get it down reliable on turn 3, I think it might be worth including, but it doesn't curve well with your commander, and can be too easily played around when dropped on turn 5 or 6, and becomes even less valuable/dangerous as the game goes on.
Underworld Dreams is about the worst group slug card that I'd still consider running in this deck, but I just can't imagine the card being relevant unless your opponents are drawing 3+ cards a turn. It's reasonable to assume at least one person is going to be doing that, but all of them?

Idk, maybe I'm just allergic to cards that depend on my opponents deck. You'll never see me running Carpet of Flowers or Submerge and those are much more likely to be turned on by my opponents than Underworld Dreams or Authority of the Consuls.

Also, don't forget that Liesa, Shroud of Dusk beats can help whittle down opponents. taking a total stab in the dark, but I suspect ~25% of my damage will come from Liesa beats, ~25% from her punisher effect, and ~50% from a Torment of Hailfire.
Leaning into the board wipes as you are, and running as few permanents as you are, I'm surprised you're not running the two best wipes in the format--Farewell and Austere Command. Sure, they are outside of your T4-wipe, T-5 commander line, but they are very powerful and flexible. At the very least you seem to have almost 0 downside to Farewell hitting everything but enchantments, and then only if you have 1 of your 4 or so important ones in play.
Yeah, both of them will make it in eventually. It's that whole "start by taking as concept to the extreme" thing I was talking about earlier. If casting a board wipe on t4 every game ends up being the bee's knees, then I'll keep all the current wipes and add a few bigger ones, if it ends upnot being nearly as cool as I thought it would be, I'll trade some of the current wipes for bigger ones.

Ruiner wrote:
4 months ago
My Liesa list is very minimal on these effects, I'm not huge on leaning all in on group slug myself either. I stand by running Ankh of Mishra and Kambal, Consul of Allocation as they are low CMC so they potentially drop early and mess with a number of strategies pretty decently. The damage those two can put in can end up being fairly significant in my experience. Sheoldred, the Apocalypse is another similar card I run, but it gains life and swings for decent damage (unlike Underworld Dreams and Fate Unraveler).
Sheoldred, the Apocalypse falls firmly in the category of "good standalone group slug" you'll get no argument from me, I'm just not running her because I'm running an ungodly number of board wipes.
Your lack of mana rocks/relying on "ramp equipment" is a bit dicey to me when you are so low on creatures that can actually wield the ramp equipment. I'm guessing you are often going to have to wait for Liesa herself to hit the board, then pay the equip cost, before you can start ramping. I'm a big fan of those cards, but I think you may need some more creatures for them to be optimal.
Mana rocks are over rated, if you aren't capitalizing on your tempo gains, just hit your land drops instead =). (Poken has a great thread on this titled "First, hit your land drops.")

Also, I'd consider running Command Beacon. I've had a number of games where my life total drops to the point where Liesa's life tax would kill me, and that simple land has made a difference.
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Post by yeti1069 » 4 months ago

Dunadain wrote:
4 months ago

The plan isn't to offset life loss with Liesa, Shroud of Dusk exclusively, the plan is to offset life loss with Liesa, Shroud of Dusk carrying a Blackblade Reforged =). It might still not be enough, but if it isn't I find it hard to imagine Authority of the Consuls is going to make the difference more often than not. Admittedly, I've never played the card, but I've only seen it recover meaningful amounts of life in token decks, or in games against token decks. The stax effect also seems a bit middling.

Honestly, that's the kind of card I'm talking about in the deck tech, it says "gain life" and it has a stax effect, but it doesn't really synergise with Liesa.
So, again, my experience against Liesa is that she gets removed quickly and repeatedly. Certainly, I've gunned for her whenever she's been across the table. I feel like, for most games I've taken no more than 6 life from her effect (although there have been a few where I took more). I've found that she rarely gets to connect, because everyone recognizes how much value that life gain is. That experience may vary greatly at other tables. Still, it's not free to equip anything but Greaves, so you need to cast Liesa, paying life to do so, then equip her, swing, and connect. That's going to often be in a turn, and again, hope for no removal. Blackblade also is going to draw more removal toward itself and Liesa, as it represents a huge threat. You also have at least one board wipe that will destroy your equipment, and I don't see ways to get them back. I think if you want to learn on Liesa as your life gain, you could stand to lean more heavily into the voltron package.

Again, offsetting life loss is going to be a burden when all of your draw comes with life loss, and your primary strategy for mitigating hate from the other players is wiping the board then paying life-as-commander tax.

As for Authority, I don't think I've played a game with it where it gained less than 10 life (outside of it getting removed immediately), and have played many games where it has gained upwards of 30 life. If you're looking to go long, this card puts in a ton of work for 1 mana. It shuts off decks that rely on haste (I HATE seeing this when I'm playing Henzie, for example, or Ur-Dragon), which aside from pulling the claws from some strategies, also helps mitigate one of your weaknesses here. You're leaning heavily on board wipes, and then are packing a bunch of spot removal, but all of that comes with life loss for you--whether from commander tax, or your commander's trigger--and you have virtually zero other defenses, along with few ways to give Liesa vigilance. Therefore, you're left in a position where, casting interaction hurts, and you can't defend against swarms. I've lost many games to opponents who went from 0 to 60 dropping threats with haste to eliminate me from nowhere. 1 mana negates that entire strategy unless it ALSO comes with enchantment removal.

If you haven't played with Authority ever, you should try it, and this seems like a great spot for it.


Edit: It occured to me if interaction still ends up being too much of a problem, I can run some stax effects that prevent opponents from casting spells on my turn. It'll guarantee that I can get in with a hasty Liesa, and make sure I can slam my Torment of Hailfire with impunity.
I think you should be running some of those anyway, but most are creatures, and you're set up to be kind of hell on creatures. Stax effects and pillowfort effects would probably synergize well here--every spell costs 2 life AND more mana, or more life, AND you're limited in what you can do? That's a way to go to a long game.

Like I said, this deck is going to be glacially slow, ramping on t6 is far too slow for most decks, but if your deck has 8 board wipes and 15 spot removal spells, t6 is when the game is really getting started =). I might be taking the concept too far, but I like to start with extremes and reign the deck in after testing.
Mana rocks are over rated, if you aren't capitalizing on your tempo gains, just hit your land drops instead =). (Poken has a great thread on this titled "First, hit your land drops.")
I don't think this is an argument for replacing lands with rocks, but replacing glacially slow, inefficient ramp (Animist and H+H) with rocks. The rocks can help you wrath, drop Liesa, or equipment sooner, and make it easier to drop Liesa and equip her in the same turn, while the Swords are specifically exacerbating this strategy. Another argument against the Liesa+equipment+interaction angle is that you may often have turns where you're forced to decide between casting and equipping your commander or using/holding up mana for removal. You've only so many resources to work with, and contorting your ramp to work within that already strained shell isn't going to do you any favors, I believe.

Underworld Dreams is about the worst group slug card that I'd still consider running in this deck, but I just can't imagine the card being relevant unless your opponents are drawing 3+ cards a turn. It's reasonable to assume at least one person is going to be doing that, but all of them?

Idk, maybe I'm just allergic to cards that depend on my opponents deck. You'll never see me running Carpet of Flowers or Submerge and those are much more likely to be turned on by my opponents than Underworld Dreams or Authority of the Consuls.

Also, don't forget that Liesa, Shroud of Dusk beats can help whittle down opponents. taking a total stab in the dark, but I suspect ~25% of my damage will come from Liesa beats, ~25% from her punisher effect, and ~50% from a Torment of Hailfire.
I don't think her life tax on its own is all that relevant. Most decks/players are happy to pay 2 life to draw a card, so paying 2 life to play a card isn't (necessarily) much different, and the ones that care most about it are also likely to have answers. Underworld Dreams I think of as being pretty lackluster outside of wheels.dec, but having additional life taxing effects makes your commander's (and each other) taxing effect more relevant. Sheoldred is much better, obviously, but won't survive your wipes.

As for your math, you're looking at a baseline of 2 swings/opponent to be doing 25% of their life, so that's 6 turns of open attacks and no interaction. Fewer turns if you have equipment on her, obviously, but starting from your baseline. Then you're looking for 5 spells cast/opponent. That may very well be 5 turns, but is more likely to be 3-4. Those overlap, but you're still looking at several turns of being permitted to do whatever you like to get to those figures. Underworld Dreams helps cut into those numbers for a low cost.

Also, who ISN'T drawing extra cards these days? Looking at my own commanders, only about 1/3rd of them don't come with card draw in some fashion, and many are going to be drawing multiple cards a turn.

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Post by Ruiner » 4 months ago

A couple of other quick notes:

If you are wanting to guarantee you are hitting g land drops, why not run things like Tithe, Land Tax, Archaeomancer's Map, and/or Weathered Wayfarer? I still think some cheap rocks are valuable (I run these cards and rocks in my deck) but if you aren't in on rocks, I'd probably be running a few of these at least.

Entomb feels sort of lackluster in this deck. From what I see it is just to utilize Silversmote Ghoul?

Mithril Coat is pretty great for Liesa as an instant speed auto equipping response that also makes her not die to most wipes, since you are leaning that direction anyway.

Authority of the Consuls is almost always a stellar card in my experience. Just wanted to echo other's sentiments on this. It can be a very significant amount of lifegain and slows people down.

You seem to be valuing Vigilance. Would Reconnaissance have a place here?

Duelist's Heritage could increase Liesa's clock and lifegain significantly.

A lot of my other suggestions would be creature based like Vito, Thorn of the Dusk Rose, but I don't think you want that angle with your wipe heavy style (check my deck list if you happen to be interested though).

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Post by duducrash » 4 months ago

I think she should be Orzhov midrange godstuff. She works specially fine with equipments for the voltron finish as you wont have to deal with command tax taking you out of the game.

Best removal you can find, general good stuff and see the wrath of an angel carrying 6 different swords coming at you

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Post by TheGildedGoose » 4 months ago

Loran's Escape, Blacksmith's Skill, Teferi's Protection, Mother of Runes, and Giver of Runes are super important for protecting your commander since you're so reliant on her. She may cheat the commander tax to a large degree but she's also a lightning rod for removal. I also think it's a mistake to expect to windmill slam a wipe on turn 4. Wipes are dependent upon the board state unlike, say, ramp or hand sculpting, which are generally always good. Because of this you can afford to play the better wipes like Farewell and Tragic Arrogance and Hour of Revelation.

If you need more vigilance, Brave the Sands is really solid.

I'm skeptical about your card draw package As has been pointed out, there's a lot of pain involved with the entire suite, which is going to add up quickly without a way to stabilize your life total. While adding in the protection spells will go a long way towards sustaining your life total due to more hits with Liesa, I would look into more painless options like Mask of Memory and Sword of Fire and Ice to help round things out. Speaking of the swords, I was genuinely shocked to not see more of them. They a) protect b) generate incremental advantage and c) get Liesa to the magical 7 power threshold. I suspect you're looking to avoid similarities to your Ebondeath list, but hey, this is fundamentally a similar deck.

I like Stinging Study here.

Finally, I would reevaluate your stance on ramp. If you're not going to be playing mass artifact destruction, 2mv rocks give you something to do in the early game besides wrath, because not doing anything until turn 4 in a non-Phelddagrif deck doesn't seem like a winning proposition. Given your large amount of mana sinks, I don't think you'll be disappointed with some good ol' ramp.

Otherwise, sweet deck.

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Post by Dunadain » 4 months ago

So I played 4 games (with some minor edits) and won all 4. lol

I expect the winrate will drop once people wisen up to the deck. One of the games, two aggro decks were in a headlock, so I just made land drops until turn 6 (I think I cast a Noble Heritage or something before then) where I cast a board wipe, then took over the game from there. Smart players will pressure you so that you're forced to use your wipes earlier.

Noble Heritage was in 3/4 games and was bananas, I only drew Authority of the Consuls once, and the game ended 3 turns later, with it gaining me a grand total of 4 life, I'll keep it in for now, but I really don't think the card is all that good without support.

Anyways, I'll try to tackle some of your suggestions now.
TheGildedGoose wrote:
4 months ago
Loran's Escape, Blacksmith's Skill, Teferi's Protection, Mother of Runes, and Giver of Runes are super important for protecting your commander since you're so reliant on her. She may cheat the commander tax to a large degree but she's also a lightning rod for removal.
Idk about the Moms, but the others are really good, I found room for Loran's Escape and Blacksmith's Skill already.
I also think it's a mistake to expect to windmill slam a wipe on turn 4. Wipes are dependent upon the board state unlike, say, ramp or hand sculpting, which are generally always good. Because of this you can afford to play the better wipes like Farewell and Tragic Arrogance and Hour of Revelation.
Right but the games where playing a wipe on t4 is a bad idea are the kind of games I'm already favored in.
If you need more vigilance, Brave the Sands is really solid.
Was on the list, seems sweet.
I'm skeptical about your card draw package As has been pointed out, there's a lot of pain involved with the entire suite, which is going to add up quickly without a way to stabilize your life total. While adding in the protection spells will go a long way towards sustaining your life total due to more hits with Liesa, I would look into more painless options like Mask of Memory and Sword of Fire and Ice to help round things out. Speaking of the swords, I was genuinely shocked to not see more of them. They a) protect b) generate incremental advantage and c) get Liesa to the magical 7 power threshold. I suspect you're looking to avoid similarities to your Ebondeath list, but hey, this is fundamentally a similar deck.
I'm kind of intentionally avoiding treading old ground with my Ebondeath list, if I go that route, I'm just making a worse Ebondeath.
I like Stinging Study here.
No, this card is bad and I will die on this hill :mad:
Finally, I would reevaluate your stance on ramp. If you're not going to be playing mass artifact destruction, 2mv rocks give you something to do in the early game besides wrath, because not doing anything until turn 4 in a non-Phelddagrif deck doesn't seem like a winning proposition. Given your large amount of mana sinks, I don't think you'll be disappointed with some good ol' ramp.
I mean, Phelddagrif is probably the slowest deck I've ever played, but it's not the only deck that can take it slow. Honestly, my early game plays are pretty reasonable:
Lieasa mana curve.png
Sure a lot of those spells are reactive, but if my opponents aren't forcing me to playing reactive spells, then, once again, that favors me anyways.
Ruiner wrote:
4 months ago
A couple of other quick notes:

If you are wanting to guarantee you are hitting g land drops, why not run things like Tithe, Land Tax, Archaeomancer's Map, and/or Weathered Wayfarer? I still think some cheap rocks are valuable (I run these cards and rocks in my deck) but if you aren't in on rocks, I'd probably be running a few of these at least.
Drawing cards is just a better way to hit land drops, the Sword of the Animist and co. are different because they are pulling you ahead on mana.

Land Tax is so efficient that it might still be good though.
Mithril Coat is pretty great for Liesa as an instant speed auto equipping response that also makes her not die to most wipes, since you are leaning that direction anyway.
Yeah, I ended up adding it, and it was stellar, thanks :+1:
Authority of the Consuls is almost always a stellar card in my experience. Just wanted to echo other's sentiments on this. It can be a very significant amount of lifegain and slows people down.
Still perplexed by this, but I've succumbed to peer pressure and I guess I'll wait and see.
You seem to be valuing Vigilance. Would Reconnaissance have a place here?
I don't think so, the whole point of Vigilance is to get my lifelink swing in everyturn while still leaving up a blocker. Reconnaissance is good for decks that just want the attack triggers and don't really care if the creatures actually do damage or not.
Duelist's Heritage could increase Liesa's clock and lifegain significantly.
Yeah, this and Flaming Fist look sweet, I'll try to find cuts.

yeti1069 wrote:
4 months ago
So, again, my experience against Liesa is that she gets removed quickly and repeatedly. Certainly, I've gunned for her whenever she's been across the table. I feel like, for most games I've taken no more than 6 life from her effect (although there have been a few where I took more). I've found that she rarely gets to connect, because everyone recognizes how much value that life gain is. That experience may vary greatly at other tables. Still, it's not free to equip anything but Greaves, so you need to cast Liesa, paying life to do so, then equip her, swing, and connect. That's going to often be in a turn, and again, hope for no removal. Blackblade also is going to draw more removal toward itself and Liesa, as it represents a huge threat. You also have at least one board wipe that will destroy your equipment, and I don't see ways to get them back. I think if you want to learn on Liesa as your life gain, you could stand to lean more heavily into the voltron package.

Again, offsetting life loss is going to be a burden when all of your draw comes with life loss, and your primary strategy for mitigating hate from the other players is wiping the board then paying life-as-commander tax.
I think you misunderstand, I don't expect to need to wipe if my commander is out, it's certainly possible, but, in general, a giant flying, vigilance and lifelink body can stabilize most boards, so you don't wipe until some sucker removes liesa, then you wipe and recast Liesa. Sure, you can blow up your own commander, and you might have to from time-to-time, but it's unlikely to happen too often.
As for Authority, I don't think I've played a game with it where it gained less than 10 life (outside of it getting removed immediately), and have played many games where it has gained upwards of 30 life. If you're looking to go long, this card puts in a ton of work for 1 mana. It shuts off decks that rely on haste (I HATE seeing this when I'm playing Henzie, for example, or Ur-Dragon), which aside from pulling the claws from some strategies, also helps mitigate one of your weaknesses here. You're leaning heavily on board wipes, and then are packing a bunch of spot removal, but all of that comes with life loss for you--whether from commander tax, or your commander's trigger--and you have virtually zero other defenses, along with few ways to give Liesa vigilance. Therefore, you're left in a position where, casting interaction hurts, and you can't defend against swarms. I've lost many games to opponents who went from 0 to 60 dropping threats with haste to eliminate me from nowhere. 1 mana negates that entire strategy unless it ALSO comes with enchantment removal.

If you haven't played with Authority ever, you should try it, and this seems like a great spot for it.
If you say so, I'm not seeing the light, but I also try to acknowledge that the masses are often smarter than me XD



I don't think this is an argument for replacing lands with rocks, but replacing glacially slow, inefficient ramp (Animist and H+H) with rocks. The rocks can help you wrath, drop Liesa, or equipment sooner, and make it easier to drop Liesa and equip her in the same turn, while the Swords are specifically exacerbating this strategy. Another argument against the Liesa+equipment+interaction angle is that you may often have turns where you're forced to decide between casting and equipping your commander or using/holding up mana for removal. You've only so many resources to work with, and contorting your ramp to work within that already strained shell isn't going to do you any favors, I believe.
I'm confused, the swords and the ramp are one and the same (with the exception of Blackblade Reforged), they aren't competeing cause they're one and the same.
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Post by Ruiner » 4 months ago

Dunadain wrote:
4 months ago
You seem to be valuing Vigilance. Would Reconnaissance have a place here?
I don't think so, the whole point of Vigilance is to get my lifelink swing in everyturn while still leaving up a blocker. Reconnaissance is good for decks that just want the attack triggers and don't really care if the creatures actually do damage or not.
Not trying to sell you on it (I'm not running it myself) but in case you are unaware, you can remove the creature in question from combat and untap it with Reconnaissance after combat damage has been dealt (a lot of people don't seem to know this). There is a portion of the combat step past damage being dealt, where it is still an "attacking creature", you activate Reconnaissance then before your next main phase begins. It's essentially a way to have vigilance without worrying about an aura that will be lost when Liesa dies or equip costs or anything like that. It does however require Liesa to be targetable.

I guess you could run Brave the Sands or Serra's Blessing instead to make that less complicated, but they cost a little more mana.

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Post by Dunadain » 4 months ago

Ruiner wrote:
4 months ago
Dunadain wrote:
4 months ago
You seem to be valuing Vigilance. Would Reconnaissance have a place here?
I don't think so, the whole point of Vigilance is to get my lifelink swing in everyturn while still leaving up a blocker. Reconnaissance is good for decks that just want the attack triggers and don't really care if the creatures actually do damage or not.
Not trying to sell you on it (I'm not running it myself) but in case you are unaware, you can remove the creature in question from combat and untap it with Reconnaissance after combat damage has been dealt (a lot of people don't seem to know this). There is a portion of the combat step past damage being dealt, where it is still an "attacking creature", you activate Reconnaissance then before your next main phase begins. It's essentially a way to have vigilance without worrying about an aura that will be lost when Liesa dies or equip costs or anything like that. It does however require Liesa to be targetable.

I guess you could run Brave the Sands or Serra's Blessing instead to make that less complicated, but they cost a little more mana.
Really?!?!?

So is the reminder text:

That creature neither deals nor recieves combat damage this turn

just lying? or am I misunderstanding what it is trying to say?
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Post by Ruiner » 4 months ago

Dunadain wrote:
4 months ago
Ruiner wrote:
4 months ago
Dunadain wrote:
4 months ago

I don't think so, the whole point of Vigilance is to get my lifelink swing in everyturn while still leaving up a blocker. Reconnaissance is good for decks that just want the attack triggers and don't really care if the creatures actually do damage or not.
Not trying to sell you on it (I'm not running it myself) but in case you are unaware, you can remove the creature in question from combat and untap it with Reconnaissance after combat damage has been dealt (a lot of people don't seem to know this). There is a portion of the combat step past damage being dealt, where it is still an "attacking creature", you activate Reconnaissance then before your next main phase begins. It's essentially a way to have vigilance without worrying about an aura that will be lost when Liesa dies or equip costs or anything like that. It does however require Liesa to be targetable.

I guess you could run Brave the Sands or Serra's Blessing instead to make that less complicated, but they cost a little more mana.
Really?!?!?

So is the reminder text:

That creature neither deals nor recieves combat damage this turn

just lying? or am I misunderstanding what it is trying to say?
The combat phase has the following steps:
1) Beginning of combat step
2) Declare attackers step
3) Declare blockers step
4) Combat damage step
5) End of combat step

A creature declared as an attacker in Step 2 is considered an "attacking creature" as long as you are in the Combat Phase or until it is somehow removed from combat.

So, if you activate Reconnaissance in Step 5, the damage has already been dealt and there is no clause on the activation saying "if you've already dealt combat damage, you can't activate this". So, the creature won't deal or receive any combat damage during the "End of combat step".

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Post by Dunadain » 4 months ago

Huh, learn something new everyday.
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Post by tstorm823 » 4 months ago

Dunadain wrote:
4 months ago
Really?!?!?

So is the reminder text:

That creature neither deals nor recieves combat damage this turn

just lying? or am I misunderstanding what it is trying to say?
You are understanding exactly what it is trying to say, but it doesn't function as printed anymore because the rules have changed so much. When they printed Reconnaissance, the stack didn't even exist, and damage worked in a weird way where it would tally up on creatures but then sit and wait for other things to happen before the rules checked if the creature died. In combat, damage would be marked, and then people had a chance to respond before the game checked who or what should be dead from damage. In that rule set, if your creature dealt and received damage, and then you activated Reconnaissance, it would retroactively remove the damage that had been marked before it accomplished anything, so that reminder text was accurate.

The next major rule update after they printed the card, they changed the rules enough that it works exactly as @Ruiner described, and with the exception of a brief period where they tried errata'ing it back to the original functionality, that's how its been ever since.
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Post by TheGildedGoose » 4 months ago

Dunadain wrote:
4 months ago
Right but the games where playing a wipe on t4 is a bad idea are the kind of games I'm already favored in.
I would think you're soft to noncreature decks, actually, even with a punisher commander.
I mean, Phelddagrif is probably the slowest deck I've ever played, but it's not the only deck that can take it slow. Honestly, my early game plays are pretty reasonable:

<snip>

Sure a lot of those spells are reactive, but if my opponents aren't forcing me to playing reactive spells, then, once again, that favors me anyways.
Hmm. My own experiences with Phelddagrif and other control decks as well as you saying this are making me wonder just how important early game plays actually are. Clearly, it's super important in cEDH with an actual critical turn, but in casual EDH without one where games frequently go long, does the early game really matter that much? This is definitely outside the scope of this thread, but...

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Post by yeti1069 » 4 months ago

Dunadain wrote:
4 months ago

I mean, Phelddagrif is probably the slowest deck I've ever played, but it's not the only deck that can take it slow. Honestly, my early game plays are pretty reasonable:

Sure a lot of those spells are reactive, but if my opponents aren't forcing me to playing reactive spells, then, once again, that favors me anyways.
If you're spending turns not casting spells because all you're holding are reactive spells you don't need, you're not being very efficient with your mana, and will likely run into having to discard to hand size. Not the worst thing in the world, but also not ideal. Having proactive early plays (like rocks) means that you're advancing your position instead of twiddling your thumbs. Not the most critical items, but I view using mana as worthwhile.
You seem to be valuing Vigilance. Would Reconnaissance have a place here?
I don't think so, the whole point of Vigilance is to get my lifelink swing in everyturn while still leaving up a blocker. Reconnaissance is good for decks that just want the attack triggers and don't really care if the creatures actually do damage or not.
Recon is worse than Brave the Sands in only a couple of scenarios, really:
1) You need that double block ability
2) Your target has shroud (Lightning Greaves)
3) Your target has protection from white

Otherwise, it's 1-mana vigilance that can also save your creature(s) from combat tricks while on offense.
I don't think this is an argument for replacing lands with rocks, but replacing glacially slow, inefficient ramp (Animist and H+H) with rocks. The rocks can help you wrath, drop Liesa, or equipment sooner, and make it easier to drop Liesa and equip her in the same turn, while the Swords are specifically exacerbating this strategy. Another argument against the Liesa+equipment+interaction angle is that you may often have turns where you're forced to decide between casting and equipping your commander or using/holding up mana for removal. You've only so many resources to work with, and contorting your ramp to work within that already strained shell isn't going to do you any favors, I believe.
I'm confused, the swords and the ramp are one and the same (with the exception of Blackblade Reforged), they aren't competeing cause they're one and the same.
[/quote]
The swords are NOT the same as other ramp, like rocks. A Talisman, for example, is 2 mana, and produces 1 right away, essentially costing you 1 mana, and then putting you at +1 mana every turn after--you achieve a sort of mana parity after 1 turn, in that you've gotten back your investment, but it also allows for a more advanced play (in terms of CMC) on the following turn. Rocks can also often be dropped elsewhere along the curve when your play for that turn would have not used all of your available mana. Sword of the Animist, for example, is 2 to play, 2 to equip, so it isn't providing any value the turn you drop it until you have 4 mana available. The mana it provides isn't available the same turn at all. It also depends upon having a creature to equip it TO, as well as being able to attack with that creature.

Based on the number of creature you're running, the most likely/favorable scenario for Animist is you drop it on turn 2 when you have nothing else to do, and it does nothing for turns 3, 4, and 5--where you've deployed Liesa. Turn 6 you spend 2 mana, and ramp 1, available on turn 7. Compared to a mana rock, you've spent twice as much mana, and had 5 turns with 0 mana benefit. The alternative, is it sits in your hand until you've deployed a creature, then you spend 4 mana and attack that turn for your ramp. I'm just not seeing how this is going to be beneficial to you in most games. Sure, you're looking to go long, but once you're at 6 mana, there's quite the drop off in value of continuing to ramp--you aren't looking at making very many plays per turn, making big plays, nor stringing together a combo. It helps to have mana up for multiple pieces of interaction, and to play and attach other equipment, and further to keep mana up for interaction while doing it, but that looks like a soft cap at 8-9 mana unless you're looking for multiple pieces of interaction in the turn cycle on top of the equipment.

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Post by Dunadain » 4 months ago

yeti1069 wrote:
4 months ago

If you're spending turns not casting spells because all you're holding are reactive spells you don't need, you're not being very efficient with your mana, and will likely run into having to discard to hand size. Not the worst thing in the world, but also not ideal. Having proactive early plays (like rocks) means that you're advancing your position instead of twiddling your thumbs. Not the most critical items, but I view using mana as worthwhile.
Discarding to hand size shouldn't be a problem, even ignoring the reactive spells the deck has a very low curve. This is a control deck, it's not about being mana efficient in the early game, it's about surviving the early game so you can overrun the opposition in the late game with superior card quality and quantity.
The swords are NOT the same as other ramp, like rocks. A Talisman, for example, is 2 mana, and produces 1 right away, essentially costing you 1 mana, and then putting you at +1 mana every turn after--you achieve a sort of mana parity after 1 turn, in that you've gotten back your investment, but it also allows for a more advanced play (in terms of CMC) on the following turn. Rocks can also often be dropped elsewhere along the curve when your play for that turn would have not used all of your available mana. Sword of the Animist, for example, is 2 to play, 2 to equip, so it isn't providing any value the turn you drop it until you have 4 mana available. The mana it provides isn't available the same turn at all. It also depends upon having a creature to equip it TO, as well as being able to attack with that creature.
That's not what I meant. You said the Sword of the Animist was adding extra stress since I needed to cast Liesa, equip my equipment, and equip my Sword of the Animist, but that's redundant, my Sword of the Animist IS my equipment. Sure, I might have some hands where I draw too many equipment, but that's true of any effect you include multiples of in a deck. It's also not the end of the world if I have to equip stuff over the course of two turns.
Based on the number of creature you're running, the most likely/favorable scenario for Animist is you drop it on turn 2 when you have nothing else to do, and it does nothing for turns 3, 4, and 5--where you've deployed Liesa. Turn 6 you spend 2 mana, and ramp 1, available on turn 7. Compared to a mana rock, you've spent twice as much mana, and had 5 turns with 0 mana benefit. The alternative, is it sits in your hand until you've deployed a creature, then you spend 4 mana and attack that turn for your ramp. I'm just not seeing how this is going to be beneficial to you in most games. Sure, you're looking to go long, but once you're at 6 mana, there's quite the drop off in value of continuing to ramp--you aren't looking at making very many plays per turn, making big plays, nor stringing together a combo. It helps to have mana up for multiple pieces of interaction, and to play and attach other equipment, and further to keep mana up for interaction while doing it, but that looks like a soft cap at 8-9 mana unless you're looking for multiple pieces of interaction in the turn cycle on top of the equipment.
But total mana gained doesn't tell the whole story, I can't put one additional mana into Exsanguinate and co. each turn. Seeing as my ultimate goal is to cast a giant Exsanguinate, Sword of the Animist, Black Market Connections, and Smothering Tithe will all offer much more mana on the only turn where it really matters than a 2 MV rock.
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Post by TheGildedGoose » 4 months ago

yeti1069 wrote:
4 months ago
If you're spending turns not casting spells because all you're holding are reactive spells you don't need, you're not being very efficient with your mana, and will likely run into having to discard to hand size. Not the worst thing in the world, but also not ideal. Having proactive early plays (like rocks) means that you're advancing your position instead of twiddling your thumbs. Not the most critical items, but I view using mana as worthwhile.
If you're not familiar with Dirk's Phelddagrif deck, it's predicated on flying under the radar because of a lack of threatening board position while retaining enough reactive control spells to both protect itself while also preventing the game from getting too out of hand.

It's incredibly effective in the hands of the right pilot.

You don't discard to hand size because you hit your land drops, and in any modern game of commander there will always be something worth using removal on.

That said, Dirk doesn't play cantrips or many other cards that sculpt, which I think is a mistake precisely because of the arguments you make. Generally, it is better to do something rather than nothing. For most decks, that would be ramping, but sculpting and developing a board are better for others. However, I have nothing but theory and anecdotal experience to support this.

The big thing to consider is that this is a late game deck. Control decks aren't in a hurry to win, and simply keeping yourself alive while getting to the end game puts said deck in a hugely advantageous position. Rocks tend to be duds in the late game to these decks because they already have enough mana to do what they need to do. At that point they're bad lands.

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Post by yeti1069 » 4 months ago

TheGildedGoose wrote:
4 months ago
yeti1069 wrote:
4 months ago
If you're spending turns not casting spells because all you're holding are reactive spells you don't need, you're not being very efficient with your mana, and will likely run into having to discard to hand size. Not the worst thing in the world, but also not ideal. Having proactive early plays (like rocks) means that you're advancing your position instead of twiddling your thumbs. Not the most critical items, but I view using mana as worthwhile.
If you're not familiar with Dirk's Phelddagrif deck, it's predicated on flying under the radar because of a lack of threatening board position while retaining enough reactive control spells to both protect itself while also preventing the game from getting too out of hand.

It's incredibly effective in the hands of the right pilot.

You don't discard to hand size because you hit your land drops, and in any modern game of commander there will always be something worth using removal on.

That said, Dirk doesn't play cantrips or many other cards that sculpt, which I think is a mistake precisely because of the arguments you make. Generally, it is better to do something rather than nothing. For most decks, that would be ramping, but sculpting and developing a board are better for others. However, I have nothing but theory and anecdotal experience to support this.

The big thing to consider is that this is a late game deck. Control decks aren't in a hurry to win, and simply keeping yourself alive while getting to the end game puts said deck in a hugely advantageous position. Rocks tend to be duds in the late game to these decks because they already have enough mana to do what they need to do. At that point they're bad lands.
Flying under the radar only goes so far, and goes less far the more often you play the deck with the same person/people. The hippo is kind of hard for a lot of players to parse, and doesn't reveal how threatening it is until it's too late much of the time (I've played against a few). Liesa looks threatening in the command zone--she represents repeated damage AND is herself a flying, life linked threat. I could see not doing much early buying some breathing room, but I don't know that it's going to fly under the radar for long. As soon as it starts pinging people, they'll turn very quickly. Also, unlike the hippo, Liesa isn't offering opponents anything but damage, so she's going to be a removal target more often.

I agree that hitting land drops > mana rocks if you're looking at the long game, but I also feel like suiting up a voltron commander is asking to have a lot of mana available, especially if one wants to hold up interaction as well.

This deck looks fairly weak to non-combat-based wincons, and likely to become archenemy otherwise. It just seems to me that relying on your very threatening commander to ALSO be your vehicle for ramp is going to often result in not ramping.

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Post by Vedran » 2 months ago

This seems like an interesting discussion, but it seems to me as well that it is going in the wrong direction.
I do agree that there isn't only one right way to build a deck around a commander, however, it is hard to ignore the fact that she is a group slug commander. With that being said, I don't understand why one should refrain from adding cards like Ankh of Mishra and Painful Quandary. I mean, the main idea is to tax the hell out of opponents and to play around that hate and life loss. If you can't then you need to adapt your deck building to that strategy. (If you want to play that way, of course. If you don't, by all means, play as you like, this is just my opinion.)

You are the main target from the get go, but from my experience, as soon as someone gets a combo piece on the board, or builds a strong board that needs to be dealt with ASAP, she falls into the background. The main strength of the deck is the fact that you can make significant impact to the game by just putting her along with 1 or maybe 2 tax pieces onto the board. As for boardwipes, since the deck is a bit slower, I usually let my opponents build their boards to some extent, cast a board wipe and then cast Liesa or my creature tax pieces. Then opponents need to rebuild while losing life in the process.

Regarding your finishers - big X spells aren't ideal finishers. However, they are on theme and I'd say the best there is in this type of deck. From my experience, you really need protection from counter spells if you want to go the Debt to the Deathless or Exsanguinate route. I personally use Grand Abolisher.

Regarding card draw - Orzhov suffers greatly here. White is only now getting good card draw while black card draw usually costs life so there needs to be some balance in that regard. There is no way you can outlast the burn from black card draw along with Liesa's burn without some means to gain big chunks of life. There needs to be some white draw implemented for card draw like Mangara, the Diplomat, Trouble in Pairs which are both on theme, Mentor of the Meek if there's enough 2 power creatures to warrant it, etc. Even the new Teysa, Opulent Oligarch is a solid option due the fact that you are probably going to run some Extort pieces, which will in return give you 3 clues which isn't the most ideal rate for card draw, but nevertheless it's good since it doesn't cost life and gives you blockers.

When it comes to blockers - you can't leave Liesa alone on board. There has to be some other creatures that will block opponent's attacks and behave like psuedo-lifegain. Sacrifice effects if Liesa is alone on board are especially detrimental to the deck. Now, since I'm running some token makers and creatures that have 1 toughness, I'm running Skull Clamp as well. You might ask why? In a way I consider it a tax piece. You equip it to Liesa and simply chill - your opponents are either going to waste resources and life to get rid of it or they are just going to eliminate Liesa which will give you 2 fresh cards for 0 life.

While tilting more towards the creature based strategy you can add Pontiff of Blight for more drain, you open the door to smoother white card draw and overall more resilience to creature based strategy without wiping the board every turn, or every two turns.

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Post by pokken » 2 months ago

I think if I were building Liesa I would focus 100% on having her out at all times and swinging every turn for the 5 life. I'd play all the haste enablers you can (which you have a solid # of) and I'd probably try running some cost reducers. equipment that gets her to 7 power is nice as well.

I think there are some sac outlets that make mana or at least one, so I'd think about those too. I think I'd have a hard time not going for a sac outlet heavy theme either because the ability to protect her from various things is dope.

Urza's Incubator is a card I would play I think. Casting liesa for WWB

--

re: ramp
Expedition Map for Cabal Coffers is where it's at. but also I would play Knight of the White Orchid effects before signets in most white decks fwiw :D bodies for swords are good.

--
re: bombs

play Vilis, Broker of Blood I think. :) and Bolas's Citadel as well. you're gonna likely want to gain a decent chunk of life and both strong syneries there. Casting Vilis, then your commander and drawing 6 or 8 cards or whatever is good.

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Post by BlackbirdPlaysMTG » 2 months ago

There is another topic about Liesa, Shroud of Dusk which I created when she was spoiled and I have been trying out different things with her since then. The main post is horribly out of date and I should update it. Quite a few people posted different strategies, lists and their experiences with Liesa in that thread. Wanted to share my personal experience with her in this topic :). I agree with your comments about the punisher theme. Running the weaker effects is not worth it - things like Polluted Bonds and Indulging Patrician aren't going to win you the game. You are spending quite a bit of mana on them and their impact is... meh. I personally think that cards like Torment of Hailfire to finish games are a bit of a trap. You need quite a lot of mana to fire them off to actually be impactful and they are dead weight until then.

I think Liesa can't really be build in a subtle way personally. She draws attention the moment you announce her as your commander. What I tried to do in my newest build is improve the card quality, make sure I get to execute my gameplan and have several avenues to actually win the game (instead of annoying my opponents for a few points of damage here and there). To make sure I have the time to execute my own gameplan I am running a pillowfort and stax package. Liesa will draw aggression from the table, so the option to pillowfort is neat and stax helps to dictate what your opponents can and can't do. One of the better cards in the deck is Rule of Law, for example. Next to this package I am running a medium sized removal package + Reprieve as a 'gotcha'.

There are roughly three ways in my list to win the game: combo the table with a variant of Sanguine Bond + Exquisite Blood (not everyone's cup of tea, but in my playgroup people are running infinites so why not me? Besides, those cards are also very solid standalone), wittle them down with actually impactful lifedrain effects or midrange them down with Liesa herself and creatures like Battle Angels of Tyr. Note that I am actively trying to kill my opponents, this is not a control deck. Here is my current list:
Liesa, Shroud of Dusk - build being tested by BlackbirdPlaysMTG
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Liesa, Shroud of Dusk - New Build?

Commander

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