Dockside Extortionist

[ISBPathfinder]

Just curious to hear more on other player's experience of Dockside Extortionist. I have kind of been harsh on my viewpoint of him in the past and last week I was playing a four player FFA game where I was playing a mono red treasure concept where I opening handed him and lost a game on turn 7 where I had the option of getting a single treasure from him literally that whole game. The variance based on meta seems to be huge and while I hear about people going infinite / making a million mana on turn two with him I just can't make this guy ever function to any degree that makes him feel playable.

So, I guess I just want some feedback of what normal experiences are rather than the extreme cases. Everyone in my meta seems to play landfall decks and the sort and I never seem to see this card do anything impressive or get played much in general. I own two copies now and I see everyone always saying how amazing it is but I literally couldn't find it to be worth my time to cast it last time it showed up.

[pokken]

Just curious to hear more on other player's experience of Dockside Extortionist. I have kind of been harsh on my viewpoint of him in the past and last week I was playing a four player FFA game where I was playing a mono red treasure concept where I opening handed him and lost a game on turn 7 where I had the option of getting a single treasure from him literally that whole game. The variance based on meta seems to be huge and while I hear about people going infinite / making a million mana on turn two with him I just can't make this guy ever function to any degree that makes him feel playable.

So, I guess I just want some feedback of what normal experiences are rather than the extreme cases. Everyone in my meta seems to play landfall decks and the sort and I never seem to see this card do anything impressive or get played much in general. I own two copies now and I see everyone always saying how amazing it is but I literally couldn't find it to be worth my time to cast it last time it showed up.

My Feather deck has played maybe 10 games so far and 7 or 8 of them ended in me dominantly blinking Dockside Extortionist over and over again then killing the table with gajillions of mana.

My Pako, Arcane Retriever deck has table killed off of Dockside numerous times where I just turn 2 docksided into turn 3 pako and gg'd, but I have also had it whiff pretty hard.

I think, honestly, me being at the table tends to %$#% on Dockside a lot because most of my decks are very enchantment/artifact light (usually creatures and lands is my thing) but my Pako deck has delivered some insane Docksides for others since it's heavily artifact themed.

Whenever my buddy is running his Shorikai, Genesis Engine deck I can count on Docksiding for a kajillion.

edit: a kind of side mini-game that I find hilarious with Dockside is when someone docksides vs. an opposing dockside or Smothering Tithe or some other treasure generator (Tireless Provisioner) and the original treasure hoarder has to decide if he's willing to sacrifice all his stuff *or* let the game turn into a side show.

It reminds me a lot of Consecrated Sphinx chicken, and back when people would spam clone Prophet of Kruphix or Primeval Titan. The game so often ends up revolving around the card.

Overall, my experience is that if dockside shows up at the table, the likelihood that it dominates the entire game is maybe, 50/50? Feels like too much impact for a 2-drop. And interestingly it tends to make an absolute circus %$#% out of any game with an artifact or enchantment themed deck.

I think it will probably be banned and probably good riddance.

[Crazy Monkey]

I've seen a range of effectiveness on dockside in my games as well.

In a metagame where everyone is playing 0-1 MV mana rocks, Exploration/Burgeoning or other noncreature ramp options, Dockside Extortionist often generates absurd amounts of mana. In those circumstances, it's absolutely absurd. However, decks that ramp with mana dorks and Rampant Growths just generally don't care much. They often have an artifact/enchantment though, such as Birthing Pod or something so it usually can find enough to break even across the other players.

The other thing that I've noticed in my own games is a self-selection bias. I power up and down my decks by limiting ramp options (among other options), specifically how the decks ramp in the early game. When I'm building a red deck that targets the higher power of my metagame, I am incentivized to include dockside because I know my opponents are also likely playing a larger number of low MV mana rocks. If I'm targeting a lower powered deck, I definitely don't include the dockside but even if I did it would likely not ramp by more than 2 in most games where I cast is turns 2-3.

Overall, I think that it would underperform more in decks that I excluded it for power level reasons and it heavily warps deck building if you only look at the highest power levels.

EDIT: That said, as noted above: if there's an artifact or enchantment focused deck at the table, or just a Smothering Tithe then it gets out of hand quickly.

[vandertroll]

I'm super salty about this card because I didn't get it when it was released (Magic players are the worst judges of new cards) and now I cannot justify giving so much money for a single card.

Given it's usage in terms of percentages in sites like edhrec and in games in youtube i'd say it's a powerhouse. In my playgroup's decks, which are at the 75% power level, I haven't seen him many times and when an opponent casts him, the rest of us try to either counter/kill/steal/disrupt that opponent because 90% of the times disgusting things will follow.

The strange thing is that we found that Smothering Tithe is way more efficient and game ending than dockside because our decks draw more cards than play all the fast mana rocks.

[Jemolk]

The higher power you play at, the stronger this card becomes. It's like Monastery Mentor in that regard -- it was perfectly fine in Standard, very powerful in Modern, really nasty in Legacy, and desperately in need of restriction in Vintage. Dockside is pretty useless in lower-powered pods, but the closer you get to cEDH, the stronger it gets, because you see more fast artifact mana in higher power games. Eventually, you get to the point where it just breaks the entire format in half because it makes so much mana. But, at the level where that happens, breaking the format in half appears to be the point, so whatever, it's fine.

This is, of course, subject to further variance as well. If your higher-powered decks aren't at the point where they have to run all the fast mana, and instead focus on land ramp, it's pretty bad, and if you run into a 75% enchantress deck, it'll do some pretty incredible work. But, by and large, the stronger the group, the stronger Dockside becomes. If anyone were to play it against me, for example, you could expect an absolute high end of three to four treasures from most of my decks' boardstates, and usually less. That's still pretty good, and if you can get two to three treasures from each of three opponents, that's some excellent ramp for two mana. But it doesn't reliably break the game at that level, and it's only lategame that it rises to even that level in lower power games.

[pzbw7z]

The Magda, Brazen Outlaw/Dockside Extortionist/Cloudstone Curio Loops need only net five treasures per Dockside bounce to create unlimited mana and search every artifact in the deck. So it usually just wins. Dockside is two mana, so if it doesn't hit, it's not the end of the world. There are usually things to do with creatures that profit a little. It's hard to not run these things in color.

[RxPhantom]

I'm in the same boat as @vandertroll. I don't want to spend $70 on a single card, and I've seen it flop plenty of times. I think it's degenerate overall though, and like so many things to come out in the last several years, it makes the format worse.

[Dragoon]

I play the card in my The Ur-Dragon deck and, so far, I've cast it about 4 or 5 times to varying degrees of success. I've also had it sat in my hand doing nothing about as many times. I like the fact that it punishes decks that want to abuse the fast mana rocks.

Overall, I think it scales quite well with the power level of the pod, which is precisely why I play it in my dragons deck. That deck can be slow at times and Dockside can help me catch up to the rest of the table if needed, but won't overwhelm a more casual table.

Obviously, it can be abused with flicking, bouncing, etc. but that can be said about a lot of cards. I think its fair uses compensate for that, on the opposite of something like Palinchron who will be pretty much used only to do broken things.

[duducrash]

Like others said it, it scales well with the power level of the group, wish it was on cast trigger instead of ETB so it didnt went infinite with every other card

[PrimevalCommander]

I've typically seen it cast for between 2 and 8 treasures. But I only own one copy and I put it in my brother's Korvold, Fae-Cursed King deck (yes I know, broken commander), where even breaking even is superior value when you are drawing the cards and pumping Korvold. We have several artifact based decks and one enchantress deck, so it has been above average in our playgroup as of late. Too strong for 2 mana. Solid role player at though, if someone was actually paying attention.

[benjameenbear]

It and Underworld Breach are the two primary reasons that any cEDH deck is splashing red nowadays. If you were to look at the cEDH color distribution on Moxfield lists, I'd bet that the red color distribution was less than 5% (totally subjective, but it feels right) across most lists that have R in their deck identity.

To me, when a card single-handedly changes the way that you're building a deck at such a base level (the Commander you choose to build around), that card's power level needs to be critically evaluated for being overpowered. Dockside, to me, totally fits this criteria on a cEDH level and I would be happy to see it banned in EDH.

I absolutely agree that it's power scales with the power of your playgroup. So, for lower power lists, Dockside is often a mono-Red Cultivate. But as soon as you cross a threshold where every list is playing at least 10-15 artifacts or enchantments per list, Dockside becomes game-centralizing. I can't tell you the number of cEDH lists I've seen that run terrible self-bounce spells simply to recycle Dockside's ETB.

But, I happily admit that I play 75%+ power level decks, so my bias is definitely towards evaluating this card through a much more competitive lens and experience than most people.

[BeneTleilax]

I think it scales naturally with the power level of the table, and furthermore encourages co-ordination among playgroups to combat. If you're not playing with a stable group, or you don't want to co-ordinate power level and playstyle with them, you're not playing the format the banned list is curated to maintain. People are still big mad about Flash getting banned for cEDH, and the cEDHers don't even seem to care much about this, even if it is warping their format. It's still cheaper and I'd argue fairer than Crypt, Vault and co. and they're still legal, and staples of the enfranchised-75%+ games this guy is supposedly threatening.

[vandertroll]

So yesterday we played or regular 3 player pod: While I was testing my Tatsunari, Toad Rider enchantress deck, and while the player with the Jin-Gitaxias, Progress Tyrant deck (filled with artifacts and extra turns) was about to win (in the 9th turn of the game or more) , the mana screwed player of Galazeth Prismari (he had like 3 lands) managed to land Dockside Extortionist , generating 17 treasures. He then proceeded to tap/sac loop dockside 4-5 times playing 10-15 spells in a round.

Who won? Me, because i had cast Animate Dead on blue player's Memnarch, stealing his Ugin's Nexus combo piece (alongside with some other artifacts). Nexus prevented the Galazeth player winning (his deck is based on looping extra turns) and he whiffed after trying almost everything.

It was a very funny and interesting game, but it also illustrated how powerful dockside is, bringing a manascrewed player back to the game.

[Dragoon]

It was a very funny and interesting game, but it also illustrated how powerful dockside is, bringing a manascrewed player back to the game.

If your only two opponents are respectively playing artifacts and enchantress, it goes without saying that Dockside will be able to generate tons of mana. I'm more surprised that you still manage to win even through that, which actually shows that it can still be manageable even in that situation. It reminds me of that Mana Geyser I played with two lands deck at the table (Child of Alara and Lord Windgrace if memory serves me right). I generated a truckload of mana, and I was still defeated by that d*mn creepy baby.

[3drinks]

In my experiences, it's median output is ~1.5, so, effectively, a Wily Goblin. I'm not impressed. I believe it's poor when you expect Cultivate metas, but it's stronger when expecting more higher tuned metas. The closer to cDH, the stronger it gets, not unlike 3sphere.

[Mookie]

Something I'll call out re: Dockside Extortionist is that in addition to scaling with the power level of the table, it also scales more directly with the duration of the game. On turn 10+ when everyone has a bunch of mana rocks, it may be producing a ton of mana... but on turns 2 and 3, it may not generate treasures at all. Additionally, when it is producing 4+ mana that early in the game, that implies that its controller's opponents also got off to a fast start, in which case I don't mind them catching up a bit. The fact that Dockside is unlikely to cause a game to end on turns 4-5 (or at least no more so than Dark Ritual) is a point in favor of it staying legal, IMO.

[onering]

Not sure it should be banned but it should never have been printed. Treasure is becoming increasingly problematic in the format, and dockside is one of the worst offenders. He doesn't need a high powered meta to be at least good, and the pilot has a lot of control over how good he can be by building support into their decks, support which is generally good for the deck anyway. Its trivial for him to make 2 treasure early, which is solid if not spectacular ramp, and the threshold for him to cross into being a very strong play is pretty easy to cross. If every opponent in a 4 player game has just one artifact, he's a cabal ritual that gets you any combination of colors, whose mana can be deferred until the next turn for a larger magnitude of ramp, and which leaves a body behind. Making treasure and being a creature both make him better than the various rituals, even when cast into a board with just a few artifacts, because of all the possible interactions. If your deck has any blink, or any recursion, he can easily take over the game. He ranges from strong but fair to broken depending on the meta, and it doesn't take much to make him absurd regardless of meta.

I think the solution is for Wizards to print more cards that hate on treasure, especially ones that are generically good and just happen to screw over treasure so they actually get played by more casual players. Dockside alone isn't the problem, treasure generally is, and this would address the problem more generally. Something that deals damage when artifacts are destroyed, something that prevents artifacts from being sacrificed as a cost, something that forces creatures to be sacrificed when artifacts are, something that turns off artifact based ramp generally (like mana abilities from artifacts can't be activated), something that adds a cost of 1 mana to activate abilities of artifacts, something that makes players lose life when an artifact enters under their control, etc. Just multiple new cards with this sort of effect so that when combined with existing cards like stony silence you'll likely see one or two during a game, a mix of things that just make it more painful to run and things that hard hate it, but unlike stony silence stapled to more generically useful cards.

[BeneTleilax]

I do not get the hate for treasure. It's letting red and white catch up on ramp, which is necessary in all but the most overtuned aggro decks (which I suspect y'all don't love either), and it's still no more damaging or accelerating than green's land-based ramp, let alone things like Vault, Crypt and the better dorks. What I think Dockside in particular is doing is making people more aware of how their "casual, all-fair" decks and metas rely on cheap artifact-based ramp themselves.

The one point I'll give is that it keeps making Korvold worse, but he was broken from the jump. If you have a problem with Korvold, get him banned.

[pokken]

I do not get the hate for treasure. It's letting red and white catch up on ramp, which is necessary in all but the most overtuned aggro decks (which I suspect y'all don't love either), and it's still no more damaging or accelerating than green's land-based ramp, let alone things like Vault, Crypt and the better dorks. What I think Dockside in particular is doing is making people more aware of how their "casual, all-fair" decks and metas rely on cheap artifact-based ramp themselves.

The one point I'll give is that it keeps making Korvold worse, but he was broken from the jump. If you have a problem with Korvold, get him banned.

I hate that they keep making green treasure producers that are better than the ones in white/red Tireless Provisioner / Old Gnawbone i'm looking at you

and then they make the white/red ones easily splashable for green

[BeneTleilax]

I hate that they keep making green treasure producers that are better than the ones in white/red Tireless Provisioner / Old Gnawbone i'm looking at you

Don't love how Green's been getting such good treasure support, but Provisioner isn't much further than Lotus Cobra and mana doublers have already gone. I haven't seen Gnawbone outside of an Atarka deck that was very much winning already, so I can't comment there.

[Sinis]

So, I guess I just want some feedback of what normal experiences are rather than the extreme cases. Everyone in my meta seems to play landfall decks and the sort and I never seem to see this card do anything impressive or get played much in general. I own two copies now and I see everyone always saying how amazing it is but I literally couldn't find it to be worth my time to cast it last time it showed up.

He just super-punishes all the non-green decks in the casual meta. I've seen it go off a million times, and if I never see it again it will be too soon.