Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

[ISBPathfinder]

So... I remember playing with Emrakul, the Aeons Torn when it came out in this format and I remember how omnipresent it was at that time. But I feel like decks have gotten a lot faster with more diverse tactics since then. Back when this card was banned, commander tuck was a thing making it a lot harder to build around commanders and ramp / ETB tactics were a lot stronger.

I will be honest, I don't particularly want to see Emrakul, the Aeons Torn everywhere again, but I also think that a lot of games end before players get to 15+ mana these days. My argument for unbanning Emrakul is that games have gotten faster. There are more diverse strategies today than there were at the time of its banning and back then some of why it was banned was because it was being run in almost every deck which I don't feel would be true anymore in today's commander decks.

[Outcryqq]

If your argument is "Emrakul could be unbanned now with minimal problems", I disagree. While there are more diverse strategies today, and maybe Emrakul would not be used in every deck, I think he singlehandedly could create a shift and you'd see him (her? it?) in a lot of decks. And with the development of strategies since Emrakul's first ban also come more ways to cheat it out, including cost reducers and such making the cast trigger more realistic too. I think Emrakul would again warp the format if unbanned.

[ISBPathfinder]

If your argument is "Emrakul could be unbanned now with minimal problems", I disagree. While there are more diverse strategies today, and maybe Emrakul would not be used in every deck, I think he singlehandedly could create a shift and you'd see him (her? it?) in a lot of decks. And with the development of strategies since Emrakul's first ban also come more ways to cheat it out, including cost reducers and such making the cast trigger more realistic too. I think Emrakul would again warp the format if unbanned.

I am not saying that it wouldn't still be a problem in some places but when it was banned previously it was in almost every deck and most decks did seem to be token swarm, ETB value stacks, and ramp to eldrazi. Back in the day when Emrakul was banned it felt like it wasn't just Emrakul in every deck but you often saw at least one more of the original eldrazi in those decks. How many eldrazi do you see these days in comparison? I know that I own 1-3+ of all the mythic eldrazi and I haven't played any of them in a while personally. There is like.... one deck in my meta that I am familiar with that runs any eldrazi as well which is a very small minority.

Decks were slower back in the day when Emrakul was banned is all I am saying. Fifteen mana is a TON of mana and while yea maybe some cheating effects could still be a problem in a lot of those cases you don't get the extra turn and in a lot of those situations you bounce / sac emrakul at end of turn there as well as a number of them taking some setup to cheat her in (I think its a her... cant recall).

For the record, I think I have seen a single cast of Protean Hulk since it was unbanned. I have never seen anyone other than myself (IRL) cast Kokusho. And I think I have seen Staff of Domination in maybe two or three decks. My point is largely that I think that a lot of the cards that have been on the banned list since forever due to power constraints 10+ years ago need to be re examined. Emrakul was a finisher from another era and I am just using the statement that eldrazi top end finishers aren't what they were 10 years ago.

[Mookie]

Disclaimer: I wasn't playing back when Emrakul, the Aeons Torn was legal. That said, I see two possible ways to play Emrakul: the fair way, and the unfair way.

If you're playing Emrakul fairly by casting her for 15 mana, we run into a question similar to the one asked for Torment of Hailfire, Expropriate, and other big dumb spells - how much mana is a fair price for a spell that wins the game? It's hard to say whether Emrakul is more or less likely to win than a Torment for X=13, but it's also very fair to say that no single spell should have that large of an impact by itself, even if you're paying 15 mana for it. I'll also note that the fact that Emrakul both has protection and can't be countered means she is extremely difficult to interact with, particularly in conjunction with the extra turn. In a recent discussion of Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre, I mentioned my belief that cast triggers are okay because when you're paying that much mana, you should get some value even if your creature is countered or killed.... but the extremely limited number of ways to interact with Emrakul means that isn't really an issue. I'll also call out that Emrakul is one of the easier ways to get infinite turns by using any Erratic Portal effect.

On the flip side, if you're cheating Emrakul out with something like Sneak Attack, Polymorph, or Golos, Tireless Pilgrim, that also causes issues - Emrakul is very possibly the single strongest thing to cheat out, with very few other cards even being in consideration. As a creature, Emrakul is also significantly easier to cheat out than stuff like Omniscience (and the previously-mentioned protection means she is extremely difficult to interact with). It may be the case that the format has become faster and less battlecruiser-y over time, but it's very possible that unbanning Emrakul would speed up the format even more by powering up unfair decks (which are already very strong, IMO).

Anyway, if Emrakul were unbanned, I'd try her out in a fair number of my decks - pretty much any deck capable of either cheating her into play or ramping to 15 mana. I'd also strongly consider running Bribery in a few decks. It's possible the format would self-regulate and she wouldn't show up due to 15 mana actually being too much. Ultimately though, I'm currently leaning against an unban, mostly because I don't feel like powering up Golos and Jodah, Archmage Eternal decks.

[onering]

ISB, you're absolutely right, I think the format is faster and the annoyances brought about by hard casting Emrakul would be encountered less often, simply because games are less likely to last that long. I don't think that makes what Emrakul does any less atrocious and fun ruining. In some ways, todays format is even less equipped to deal with Emrakul once she actually shows up than it was when she was banned. O-Ring used to be a staple, and was one of the few ways to effectively deal with her. How often do we see O-Ring played nowadays? Most of the enchantment based removal spells that are played are auras, and therefore don't effect her. Oubliette is a standout here, but its underplayed, and was around back when she was as well. There are more planeswalkers that can deal with her today, but most aren't played much outside of superfriends (Big Elspeth and Karn might be the ones I see the most). Other things that used to deal with her are more rarely played now, like Shriekmaw. The faster format has really pushed the removal suite to cheaper, instant speed interaction, which has the effect of pushing out many of the effects capable of dealing with Emrakul that used to be fairly present in the format. I see no reason she should come off the list, quite frankly she was always a design mistake and should never have seen print.

[pokken]

I would absolutely play the hell out of this in Eldrazi Lands and it would be dominant in a way that Torment of Hailfire / Genesis Wave type wincons are not - because the extra turn is uncounterable and it's really easy to make Emrakul infinite with just lands (High Market + Eye of Ugin).

Yeah 15 mana is a lot but one card winconditions are problematic for how they let you build decks. Especially when it's uncounterable *and* ridiculously hard to interact with once it's on the field.

[Igzex]

So what if the game's gotten faster, nobody's casting her on turn 15. She's gonna be turbo'd onto the field and once she's there you absolutely must respond right now or it will be too late. Except she has the can't be countered and protection from colored spells combo so your ways of responding to her are limited to very sub optimal cards like Scour from Existence and Summary Dismissal that nobody would even consider running unless it was specifically included because you never know when Emrakul is just around the corner. Plus, this is an extremely popular card. If this isn't a recipe for a format warping card then I don't know what is.

Also, she also has the commander rule going against her. I dunno, but I don't think allowing an uncounterable creature that gives the caster an extra turn in our command zone would be a very good idea.

[plaganegra]

I would absolutely play the hell out of this in Eldrazi Lands and it would be dominant in a way that Torment of Hailfire / Genesis Wave type wincons are not - because the extra turn is uncounterable and it's really easy to make Emrakul infinite with just lands (High Market + Eye of Ugin).

Yeah 15 mana is a lot but one card winconditions are problematic for how they let you build decks. Especially when it's uncounterable *and* ridiculously hard to interact with once it's on the field.

I used to think Emrakul would be safe to unban, but reading this thread has changed my mind.

[ISBPathfinder]

I would absolutely play the hell out of this in Eldrazi Lands and it would be dominant in a way that Torment of Hailfire / Genesis Wave type wincons are not - because the extra turn is uncounterable and it's really easy to make Emrakul infinite with just lands (High Market + Eye of Ugin).

Yeah 15 mana is a lot but one card winconditions are problematic for how they let you build decks. Especially when it's uncounterable *and* ridiculously hard to interact with once it's on the field.

Every meta is different so I won't try to judge but I think that any card that costs more than 6 mana has a real liability towards being drawn early or having games go faster than usual. You just described some loops that require a lot of overhead when looking at things beyond just casting Emrakul. High Market + Eye of Ugin + casting Emrakul, the Aeons Torn [/card] is a 21 mana loop. I am just saying from the stand point that I have had more than one deck lately that kills a table of four to five players using non infites on turn 5-6. Why the hell would I ever be worried about a 21 mana setup requiring two specific lands in play? I get that you could substitute the sac land depending on the deck to be a few other things but its going to be dependent on the eye still. This isn't even taking into account how much of a liability of a land Eye of Ugin really is being a land that only helps cast eldrazi so now you have sort of forced yourself into being eldrazi.deck in order to run this land without completely hamstringing yourself or you have to run multiple Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth / Yavimaya, Cradle of Growth effects to try to offset it.

I guess my point being, there is a lot of things that happen and they happen a lot sooner than 15 mana. Sure, its got that uncounterable thing and if you get a ton of metas that are chalked full of slow control decks it might be a thing but there is a much better solution to control / counterspells and that is running a low curve with appropriate draw. If they have to consider countering all of the 3-5 mana plays you make their counters aren't going to go very far. If you are in counterspell / spot removal.meta go build Edgar Markov and you will completely shread them.

Its slow, its extremely slow and generally speaking it can only mess up one player and that is situationally based on them not being a token deck. There are very valid reasons that a lot of people don't pack decks full of eldrazi anymore and its because they aren't that great and even when they do work you often could have just packed a ruination / back to basics on someone for the same effect assuming they do work.

Going back to the Sneak Attack / cheating concept. It doesn't win you the game and even hamstringing an opponent is going to be very dependent on what they are doing on their board. Tokens and ETB critters can quickly make the annihilate effect very weak and generally speaking if you are going after the person with the best board its just going to hamstring them a bit but that depends on what their board is and how they are threatening. Emrakul often won't kill the player with the best board but it will cripple them. My poing being that cheating it into play won't even kill a player most of the time and then you usually sacrifice her. I guess my point is that this card is like 100% less concerning to me than Craterhoof Behemoth as you can only mess up one person and even that is quite situational based on what they are doing. Who hits the person worse off with their one trigger of Emrakul?

[Sinis]

I'm sure it's no more degenerate than anything else you can do in the format.

There are plenty of ways of taking infinite turns, and Emrakul is probably the least efficient. I think the Annihilator trigger is more objectionable than anything else.

(Basically what ISB said.)

[ISBPathfinder]

I'm sure it's no more degenerate than anything else you can do in the format.

There are plenty of ways of taking infinite turns, and Emrakul is probably the least efficient. I think the Annihilator trigger is more objectionable than anything else.

Mystic Sanctuary is far more offensive on setting up infinite turns. It has soooooooooooooo many busted ways to bounce and play all the turns. You could even make your commander Kefnet the Mindful and run fetchlands with 5 mana extra turns. Its outrageous how offensive of a stain Mystic Sanctuary is. Its a bit off topic but I figured I would just mention on the front of Emrakul and infinite turns.

[pokken]

his card is like 100% less concerning to me than Craterhoof Behemoth as you can only mess up one person and even that is quite situational based on what they are doing. Who hits the person worse off with their one trigger of Emrakul?

I think that's more a case for hoofdad, expropriate, and torment of hailfire to all be banned personally. They're all more concerning to me than Emrakul.

Single card wincons are a huge red flag for me though.

Enter the Infinite, Tooth and Nail too really. There are not really that many things that just win the game with a <15 mana spell. I'd rather they all go than start unbanning more of them

[ISBPathfinder]

I think that's more a case for hoofdad, expropriate, and torment of hailfire to all be banned personally. They're all more concerning to me than Emrakul.

Single card wincons are a huge red flag for me though.

Enter the Infinite, Tooth and Nail too really. There are not really that many things that just win the game with a <15 mana spell. I'd rather they all go than start unbanning more of them

I would also rather see that situation but assuming we don't plan to start banning a bunch more things, I think its also worth noting how this card has been sort of out classed since its banning by things that we have been forced to accept or start mitigating via the social contract. Personally I think that anything that is en large assumed to be taken care of via social contract should be banned.

The game has gotten a lot more intense especially in recent years fire design. Commanders have so much more power level than they used to and I agree I would like to see probably 20-40 cards be added to the banned list (which seems to not be an option) but if we aren't doing that I think its also important to look back at cards that got banned a long time ago for reasons that likely wouldn't remain today if they were unbanned. I see Emrakul as one of those cards that got out classed by faster metas and more diverse deck tactics than what we had when commander tuck was still a thing.

I do believe we would see Emrakul played if it was unbanned. But I don't think it would be the level of issue it was back in its day. Decks and metas are faster if for no other reason because better commanders have been released and not every deck is a green ramp deck these days.

[pokken]

I would also rather see that situation but assuming we don't plan to start banning a bunch more things, I think its also worth noting how this card has been sort of out classed since its banning by things that we have been forced to accept or start mitigating via the social contract. Personally I think that anything that is en large assumed to be taken care of via social contract should be banned.

The game has gotten a lot more intense especially in recent years fire design. Commanders have so much more power level than they used to and I agree I would like to see probably 20-40 cards be added to the banned list (which seems to not be an option) but if we aren't doing that I think its also important to look back at cards that got banned a long time ago for reasons that likely wouldn't remain today if they were unbanned. I see Emrakul as one of those cards that got out classed by faster metas and more diverse deck tactics than what we had when commander tuck was still a thing.

I've made the exact same argument vis a vis Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary who is kind of a joke to be on the banlist given the current power level of commanders, so I can agree on one axis.

I'd love to play Emrakul personally since it suits my style of play a lot (Eye of Ugin.dec is my favorite flavor of lands, reminds me a lot of RG Tron in Modern ). So sure, go ahead and unban it I guess

[ISBPathfinder]

I've made the exact same argument vis a vis Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary who is kind of a joke to be on the banlist given the current power level of commanders, so I can agree on one axis.

I'd love to play Emrakul personally since it suits my style of play a lot (Eye of Ugin.dec is my favorite flavor of lands, reminds me a lot of RG Tron in Modern ). So sure, go ahead and unban it I guess

Its a bit off topic but you got me really excited for a second as I thought that I could possibly play Eye of Ugin in my changeling deck but then I realized it said colorless and I had to throw it back out the window lol.

I am still not sure where I stand on Rofellos. I felt like it was appropriate back when they allowed it to be legal in the 99 but as a commander I still have a number of concerns. I would actually rather they stepped up and banned more commanders outright that fit his power level than to allow him as a commander again but I think we are both in that boat. The last few years have felt real heavy on the power creep for commander and I would rather we go after a number of outrageous commanders most of which seemed to start with the original Modern Horizons set for me at least.

[pokken]

I am still not sure where I stand on Rofellos. I felt like it was appropriate back when they allowed it to be legal in the 99 but as a commander I still have a number of concerns. I would actually rather they stepped up and banned more commanders outright that fit his power level than to allow him as a commander again but I think we are both in that boat. The last few years have felt real heavy on the power creep for commander and I would rather we go after a number of outrageous commanders most of which seemed to start with the original Modern Horizons set for me at least.

Indeed. If rof was unbanned though and then you made a watchlist...he'd be like #15 on the list tops.

Which is kinda where I am coming to on Emrakul. If he was legal, would he worry me? I'd have a list at least 10 cards long of stuff that's more problematic.

[materpillar]

First off, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn is one of my favorite cards. I would play the hell out of this in a ton of my decks. I'd looooooooooooooove to slam this into my High CMC Tribal and that's basically why I want it to stay banned. It's big and fun looking and it isn't actually fun.

My Ulamog Annihilator Rant

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I hate it. I think Annihilator is one of my least favorite mechanics ever printed (at least Annihilator >2 is). This attacks and instantly kills you by putting you down 4 lands, but you don't feel dead so you keep trying to slog through the game as everyone casts 2 spells for every 1 of yours, since they're so far ahead on mana. Then you slowly, painfully get ground out. Fun. That or the attack does absolutely nothing because you've got a pile of tokens sitting around. Even worse, it's big and interesting so it calls to the Timmies. Who doesn't want giant Cthulhu monster? But then it's play pattern is to attack whoever has the least board presence so it can deal maximum annihilator damage. Yaaaay. So then you've got big timmy who wants to play a giant Cthulhu monster accidentally wrecking the game for people.

Or you have people who know it is hella unfun to be on the recieving end of and tries to argue that it "isn't land destruction because you don't have to sacrifice lands". I want to choke everyone who tries that argument on me every time.

Anyway, I'm just talking about battlecruiser level. This feels totally fine to me in metas where no one is really trying to kill people slowly over multiple turns in the combat step.

Mystic Sanctuary is far more offensive on setting up infinite turns. It has soooooooooooooo many busted ways to bounce and play all the turns. You could even make your commander Kefnet the Mindful and run fetchlands with 5 mana extra turns. Its outrageous how offensive of a stain Mystic Sanctuary is. Its a bit off topic but I figured I would just mention on the front of Emrakul and infinite turns.

Your meta seems like something I wouldn't want to touch with a 10 foot pole. Emrakul is probably fine with the people you play with. Mystic Sanctuary requires premeditated intent to ruin the game. If someone is using Mystic Sanctuary to take infinite turns, they're fully aware of how offensive they're being. Emrakul, the Aeons Torn is a cool, massive timmy threat that people will want to cast because it's a 15/15 flier. Then, it'll resolve in a lower powerlevel setting and turn an interesting game into a very uninteresting non-game with no possible interaction.

Its a bit off topic but you got me really excited for a second as I thought that I could possibly play Eye of Ugin in my changeling deck but then I realized it said colorless and I had to throw it back out the window lol.

I cannot tell you how many times I have had this same line of thought.

[BeneTleilax]

Emrakul is probably the least interactive single-card win, which is saying something, and would tilt the meta towards ways of cheating her out.

[umtiger]

Emrakul is probably the least interactive single-card win, which is saying something, and would tilt the meta towards ways of cheating her out.

This is beyond obvious right?

The design of this card is such that you CANNOT play it any other way. They went way out of their way to do this. The textbox is full of crap. I have seen plenty of value Protean Hulks and Tooth & Nails. But Emrakul...not happening.

1.) Practically uncounterable - unless you want to play stuff like Mindbreak Trap.
2.) Cast trigger - you can Stifle but then you have a monster left to deal with, so maybe you go Time Stop?
3.) Flying - this part is fair
4.) Protection from colored spells - you're not going to sorcery speed wrath this b/c you got time walk'd, and now you also cannot use any of your instants either. Did you save up 15 to Pernicious Deed?
5.) Annihilator 6 - I actually see this as okay for the 15, don't tell me sacrifice "feelz bad" when there are entire archetypes (aristocrats) centered around it. Like many of the complaints in EDH, it's only not okay when someone else is doing it.
6.) Shuffle clause - put in to make reanimation difficult, but most people rather Omniscience or Sneak Attack to cheat this in so this has always been a bonus on the card.

This just becomes the new best Green win-con.

[ISBPathfinder]

Mystic Sanctuary is far more offensive on setting up infinite turns. It has soooooooooooooo many busted ways to bounce and play all the turns. You could even make your commander Kefnet the Mindful and run fetchlands with 5 mana extra turns. Its outrageous how offensive of a stain Mystic Sanctuary is. Its a bit off topic but I figured I would just mention on the front of Emrakul and infinite turns.

Your meta seems like something I wouldn't want to touch with a 10 foot pole. Emrakul is probably fine with the people you play with. Mystic Sanctuary requires premeditated intent to ruin the game. If someone is using Mystic Sanctuary to take infinite turns, they're fully aware of how offensive they're being. Emrakul, the Aeons Torn is a cool, massive timmy threat that people will want to cast because it's a 15/15 flier. Then, it'll resolve in a lower powerlevel setting and turn an interesting game into a very uninteresting non-game with no possible interaction.

For the record, I refuse to execute infinite combo / loop setups but that isn't to say that people in my meta are the same. I have been combo eliminated on turn 5 more than once and the worst part is that a lot of their decks aren't very consistent at doing it so I have a hard time with them because they can execute wins very quickly but they do it somewhat inconsistently. Since returning post covid I would say its a little less frequent than once a week that someone kills the whole table by turn 6. The worst part of it in my mind is that they don't ever communicate or say anything when they step to these sort of decks because in their mind they aren't that offensive and its infrequent that they can assemble these things by these turns.

This just becomes the new best Green win-con.

It still doesn't come close to touching Food Chain, Survival of the Fittest, Craterhoof Behemoth, or Tooth and Nail but..... sure..... I guess it maybe could be run in some casual green decks. I might be cynical but I would argue that most Overrun variants probably outclass Emrakul as a closer.

[pokken]

I cannot tell you how many times I have had this same line of thought.

Mycosynth Lattice problem solved!

[umtiger]

It still doesn't come close to touching Food Chain, Survival of the Fittest, Craterhoof Behemoth, or Tooth and Nail but..... sure..... I guess it maybe could be run in some casual green decks. I might be cynical but I would argue that most Overrun variants probably outclass Emrakul as a closer.

I know that it's just semantics per se. But I wouldn't strictly count Food Chain and Survival as just green cards. For example, what is Azusa doing with Food Chain?

If you don't see value Tooth and Nails, that's fine. But it's not like it can't be done.

Emrakul wouldn't just be run in "some" casual green decks. All of them could slot them in, budget/proxies withstanding.

It's my opinion, but you know you've got to be cynical when you compare the textbox of Emrakul to Overrun and see the same thing and/or feel roughly the same way.

Mycosynth Lattice problem solved!

Similarly, I've seen Mycosynth Lattice cast for fair more than I have seen it + Karn. Thank goodness "wishing" doesn't work in EDH.

Who are those who think that everything that works in competitive sanctioned Vintage/Legacy tournaments ought to also work in EDH just because. MTG=MTG=MTG everywhere

[Sinis]

I do believe we would see Emrakul played if it was unbanned.

Would it feel better or worse than Expropriate, or similar?

Honestly, Emrakul is probably fine (where 'fine' means "there are cards that are legal that are about as devastating or game-endy").

Mystic Sanctuary is far more offensive on setting up infinite turns. It has soooooooooooooo many busted ways to bounce and play all the turns.

The first infinite turn combo I was subjected to was Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker + Eternal Witness and Time Warp. Nothing complicated, just some good cards in Temur. Kiki Jiki could have easily been a Mimic Vat or a Conjurer's Closet or whatever. There are so many analogues, many of which are acceptable in casual play.

When people tell me that they're going to string together Emrakul with Crystal Shard and 16 mana I always think "like, yeah, okay buddy, that's definitely the most degenerate thing you can do. Gold star."

Just being honest, my group doesn't like Annihilator a whole lot so it's rare for us to play it. I don't think anyone would play Emrakul in my group for all the same reasons, but I don't think it needs to be banned, except maybe as an vague suggestion of "don't play Annihilator or Infinite Turn things".

[Hermes_]

if Emrakul were unbanned, I would put my suspend deck back together.

[Jemolk]

If Emrakul were legal, there's exactly one deck of mine that would want it -- Eldrazi Tribal. I'd be hardcasting it for its full mana cost, but I'm pretty sure it would still result in that deck being more obnoxious than I'd like. Hell, the deck is already more obnoxious than I'd like in a whole lot of ways, and it's entirely possible I should just take it apart, but I like having one relatively brainless deck for occasions when it's really late and I'm too tired to play something more involved. Emrakul would make all of the worst aspects of the deck worse, weaken the best aspects of it, and worst of all, it would be unjustifiable from a flavor perspective to leave it out. No, I think I'm happier with Emrakul being banned.