[mtgnexus] Random Card of the Day - Rishkar, Peema Renegade

[umtiger]

I hate this card for the way it turn an innocuous board presence into the ability to blow out multiple opponents.
I do run Pathbreaker Ibex in couple decks... convinced it is stronger than CB in Maelstrom Wanderer where ibex when cascaded into is a guaranteed +7/+7.

So I guess that means that it is not just the way it wins but how overplayed it is that bothers me.

How is the situation you described "innocuous"? I don't see a board with 8 creatures and a green player as innocuous even if they're all 0/1 plants. That's not nothing. It's just not how current edh should be played. There are other things to account for now (like how chip damage is essential because of Aetherflux reservoir).

Any post about how "Craterhoof can ends games out of nowhere" but also comes from a Maelstrom Wanderer player seems kinda suspicious to me?!? Double cascade is literally the epitome of "came out of nowhere."

[Wallycaine]

I hate this card for the way it turn an innocuous board presence into the ability to blow out multiple opponents.
I do run Pathbreaker Ibex in couple decks... convinced it is stronger than CB in Maelstrom Wanderer where ibex when cascaded into is a guaranteed +7/+7.

So I guess that means that it is not just the way it wins but how overplayed it is that bothers me.

How is the situation you described "innocuous"? I don't see a board with 8 creatures and a green player as innocuous even if they're all 0/1 plants. That's not nothing. It's just not how current edh should be played. There are other things to account for now (like how chip damage is essential because of Aetherflux reservoir).

Any post about how "Craterhoof can ends games out of nowhere" but also comes from a Maelstrom Wanderer player seems kinda suspicious to me?!? Double cascade is literally the epitome of "came out of nowhere."

On the flip side, why isn't a board with 8 small creatures and a green player innocuous? The answer is almost entirely because Craterhoof exists. Most "fair" overruns don't go from 8 1/1's to "table kill", they just buff them enough to maaaaybe knock out a player, if said player has already taken some chip damage and has an open board. So the reason such a board state isn't innocuous is purely *because* Craterhoof Behemoth makes it so.

[Mookie]

Craterhoof Behemoth is a very powerful card. It's not difficult to build up a board full of little creatures and incidental tokens, and Craterhoof turns them into a legitimate win condition. There are other anthems that can be used to buff a team - Overrun, Pathbreaker Ibex, Overwhelming Stampede, Dragon Throne of Tarkir, Beastmaster Ascension, etc. However, Craterhoof tends to scale to lethal much faster than other options.

However, I'd say that the primary reason why Craterhoof is so strong is actually because it's an ETB trigger. Very simply, most of the other big scaling effects can be stopped with spot removal - if you're counting on Pathbreaker Ibex or a massive Omnath, Locus of Mana + Overwhelming Stampede to buff your team, those can be stopped by a single Doom Blade, while Craterhoof usually can't be stopped without an actual Fog. It's possible to play around Craterhoof a bit by utilizing frequent board wipes, but that isn't really feasible for every deck.... and, more critically, wiping a board of useless creatures and tokens juuuust in case of Craterhoof feels pretty bad.

Anyway, Craterhoof tends to induce groans, similar to Cyclonic Rift. There are substitutes, but it's far and away the best instance of the effect, which results in it seeing a lot of play. It's almost somewhat impressive that it hasn't been power creeped since its original printing... but then again, that's probably for the best, since it's already sort of pushing the limits. I'll also note that as a creature, Craterhoof is also pretty easy for green decks to tutor up and recur, which certainly contributes to the problem. Craterhoof as a 1-of creature may be okay, but fetching it on demand with Worldly Tutor / Survival of the Fittest / Tooth and Nail to end every game is going to stick in peoples' minds.

If you want this effect in other colors, I'll point to Márton Stromgald and Jazal Goldmane. That said, they are both significantly clunkier to use, and not granting trample makes it more difficult to guarantee a table kill.

...I would say that Craterhoof induces fewer groans than Triumph of the Hordes, but it's certainly close.

[Dunharrow]

I hate this card for the way it turn an innocuous board presence into the ability to blow out multiple opponents.
I do run Pathbreaker Ibex in couple decks... convinced it is stronger than CB in Maelstrom Wanderer where ibex when cascaded into is a guaranteed +7/+7.

So I guess that means that it is not just the way it wins but how overplayed it is that bothers me.

How is the situation you described "innocuous"? I don't see a board with 8 creatures and a green player as innocuous even if they're all 0/1 plants. That's not nothing. It's just not how current edh should be played. There are other things to account for now (like how chip damage is essential because of Aetherflux reservoir).

Any post about how "Craterhoof can ends games out of nowhere" but also comes from a Maelstrom Wanderer player seems kinda suspicious to me?!? Double cascade is literally the epitome of "came out of nowhere."

I mean if my opponent plays avenger of zendikar and immediately loses Avenger and just has a bunch of plant tokens, I do not feel like I should be on defence. That is what Hoof does. All the other similar cards can maybe knock out one player. Only Hoof wrecks the table completely out of nowhere.

Now, as far as MW goes - I have not played the deck in two years because it is too strong. I love the deck, but I normally play 60-85% decks with my friends. My MW is more like a 95%.
I just brought up MW as an example where Pathbreaker Ibex is normally better.
And I think that Hoof is overplayed... I don't care about other overrrun effects but Hoof just annoys me when I see it.

I would also say that double cascade is not 'out of nowhere' when it is in my command zone. hoof wins the game out of nowhere. MW is sitting there ready to be cast. You should see it coming. If I cascade into Blatant Thievery and Spelljack and recast MW to get Pathbreaker Ibex and Etali, Primal Storm like maybe I can understand that the loss came out of nowhere... but that is magical christmas land cascades. I just as easily cascade into two signets.

[onering]

I hate this card for the way it turn an innocuous board presence into the ability to blow out multiple opponents.
I do run Pathbreaker Ibex in couple decks... convinced it is stronger than CB in Maelstrom Wanderer where ibex when cascaded into is a guaranteed +7/+7.

So I guess that means that it is not just the way it wins but how overplayed it is that bothers me.

How is the situation you described "innocuous"? I don't see a board with 8 creatures and a green player as innocuous even if they're all 0/1 plants. That's not nothing. It's just not how current edh should be played. There are other things to account for now (like how chip damage is essential because of Aetherflux reservoir).

Any post about how "Craterhoof can ends games out of nowhere" but also comes from a Maelstrom Wanderer player seems kinda suspicious to me?!? Double cascade is literally the epitome of "came out of nowhere."

On the flip side, why isn't a board with 8 small creatures and a green player innocuous? The answer is almost entirely because Craterhoof exists. Most "fair" overruns don't go from 8 1/1's to "table kill", they just buff them enough to maaaaybe knock out a player, if said player has already taken some chip damage and has an open board. So the reason such a board state isn't innocuous is purely *because* Craterhoof Behemoth makes it so.

Because even if the 8 creatures are all 0/1 plants, the most innocuous scenario beyond them all being walls, the green player could also drop Beastmaster's Ascension and swing for 45. Even Overrun would swing for 24. Can't take out the board, but can take out a player. There are plenty of these effects at this point that make even 8 0/1s not innocuous. Considering that they're usually better than just plant tokens, even more so.

[onering]

Craterhoof Behemoth is a very powerful card. It's not difficult to build up a board full of little creatures and incidental tokens, and Craterhoof turns them into a legitimate win condition. There are other anthems that can be used to buff a team - Overrun, Pathbreaker Ibex, Overwhelming Stampede, Dragon Throne of Tarkir, Beastmaster Ascension, etc. However, Craterhoof tends to scale to lethal much faster than other options.

However, I'd say that the primary reason why Craterhoof is so strong is actually because it's an ETB trigger. Very simply, most of the other big scaling effects can be stopped with spot removal - if you're counting on Pathbreaker Ibex or a massive Omnath, Locus of Mana + Overwhelming Stampede to buff your team, those can be stopped by a single Doom Blade, while Craterhoof usually can't be stopped without an actual Fog. It's possible to play around Craterhoof a bit by utilizing frequent board wipes, but that isn't really feasible for every deck.... and, more critically, wiping a board of useless creatures and tokens juuuust in case of Craterhoof feels pretty bad.

Anyway, Craterhoof tends to induce groans, similar to Cyclonic Rift. There are substitutes, but it's far and away the best instance of the effect, which results in it seeing a lot of play. It's almost somewhat impressive that it hasn't been power creeped since its original printing... but then again, that's probably for the best, since it's already sort of pushing the limits. I'll also note that as a creature, Craterhoof is also pretty easy for green decks to tutor up and recur, which certainly contributes to the problem. Craterhoof as a 1-of creature may be okay, but fetching it on demand with Worldly Tutor / Survival of the Fittest / Tooth and Nail to end every game is going to stick in peoples' minds.

If you want this effect in other colors, I'll point to Márton Stromgald and Jazal Goldmane. That said, they are both significantly clunkier to use, and not granting trample makes it more difficult to guarantee a table kill.

...I would say that Craterhoof induces fewer groans than Triumph of the Hordes, but it's certainly close.

One of my favorite games ever was responding to someone's hoof with Cyclonic Rift, so he only had a 6/6 hoof which he hit me with, then on my turn targeting his hoof with a kicked Rite of Replication.

I'd say with T&N and Survival, the problem isn't Hoof, its that T&N is a busted and unfun card that consistently is used to grab combos, and Survival is often used the same way just without instantly winning.

[Wallycaine]

How is the situation you described "innocuous"? I don't see a board with 8 creatures and a green player as innocuous even if they're all 0/1 plants. That's not nothing. It's just not how current edh should be played. There are other things to account for now (like how chip damage is essential because of Aetherflux reservoir).

Any post about how "Craterhoof can ends games out of nowhere" but also comes from a Maelstrom Wanderer player seems kinda suspicious to me?!? Double cascade is literally the epitome of "came out of nowhere."

On the flip side, why isn't a board with 8 small creatures and a green player innocuous? The answer is almost entirely because Craterhoof exists. Most "fair" overruns don't go from 8 1/1's to "table kill", they just buff them enough to maaaaybe knock out a player, if said player has already taken some chip damage and has an open board. So the reason such a board state isn't innocuous is purely *because* Craterhoof Behemoth makes it so.

Because even if the 8 creatures are all 0/1 plants, the most innocuous scenario beyond them all being walls, the green player could also drop Beastmaster's Ascension and swing for 45. Even Overrun would swing for 24. Can't take out the board, but can take out a player. There are plenty of these effects at this point that make even 8 0/1s not innocuous. Considering that they're usually better than just plant tokens, even more so.

And you'll note I explictly called that out. Yes, other overrun style effects exist. If I've got 2-3 creatures out, none of your other examples are going to kill me. I might have to chump a bit, but I'll live. And that buys enough time that maybe I'll draw into a wrath or something. And on the off chance I don't have a board, well, at least you only killed one player, so others will get a chance to deal with your stuff. Craterhoof, on the other hand, takes those 8 tokens and turns them into 86 trampling damage. There's a pretty big difference in scale between that and your Beastmasters ascension example, much less Overrun.

[Treamayne]

I wonder how much less obnoxious players would find Craterhoof if his ability was like Iname as One ("When <this> enters the battlefield, if you cast it from your hand, creatures you control...")

[toctheyounger]

I wonder how much less obnoxious players would find Craterhoof if his ability was like Iname as One ("When <this> enters the battlefield, if you cast it from your hand, creatures you control...")

I dunno, you're still casting it in green which can front 8 (or 9) easily, quickly and repeatedly. To my mind, its the fact that it's on a trigger that makes it such an egregious card. At least with Pathbreaker Ibex you need to successfully attack to get the trigger, and even then it takes a bit of effort to one shot a whole table with it. All you need is plants or saprolings with CB, and not even than many.

[materpillar]

Not sure if we'll hear more groans for this card, or the Cy. Rift day we had.

If I could ban one card from the format it would be this one. It's like a 1-card infinite combo that kills the table. Obviously, I exaggerate. The amount of games that have ended with a whimper to this card is so high.

[umtiger]

I would also say that double cascade is not 'out of nowhere' when it is in my command zone. hoof wins the game out of nowhere. MW is sitting there ready to be cast. You should see it coming. If I cascade into Blatant Thievery and Spelljack and recast MW to get Pathbreaker Ibex and Etali, Primal Storm like maybe I can understand that the loss came out of nowhere... but that is magical christmas land cascades. I just as easily cascade into two signets.

Maelstrom sucks way more to play against than Craterhoof, but that's a different topic.

IMHO, if Maelstrom turning your empty board into a dominant board state doesn't count as "out of nowhere" just because it's your general, then Craterhoof also can't come out of nowhere since your opponent is playing green.

At this point, you can't just allow your opponent to accumulate a board while assuming you're safe. Even if you're building you're board to match, you're not entitled to be safe.

An opponent with 8 creatures is not an empty board. By definition Craterhoof being an Overrun cannot win by itself. Neither can Cyclonic Rift win by itself. Those two get lumped together for "ending games" but they only finish games with boards.

[pokken]

I wonder how much less obnoxious players would find Craterhoof if his ability was like Iname as One ("When <this> enters the battlefield, if you cast it from your hand, creatures you control...")

My main issue with Craterhoof is the avenues of interaction shrink a great deal with hoof; you're looking at instant speed sweepers or countermagic, or constantly sweeping the board at sorcery speed.

If it was an attacks trigger I'd find it a lot less tedious as I could spot remove it (although I do also enjoy hushwing gryffing it )

[TheAmericanSpirit]

I'm ambivalent towards Hoof. It's boring but effective, ends games in short order. C'est la vie, at least it isn't Thieves' Auction.

[Sinis]

It's not the card I despise the most, but it's definitely one of the reasons I play cards like Rout. I strongly dislike how there's not much room to interact with it (unlike most similar effects out there).

I also hate that it happens to be a green creature, which means that there are plenty of tutors that will get it and end the game while it can live amongst other toolbox green creatures (Those tutors are Green Sun's Zenith, Summoner's Pact, Finale of Devastation... and Worldly Tutor, I guess).

[Guardman]

Hoof is effective, boring, extremely powerful, but at least it ends the game quickly. Unlike something like Cyclonic Rift which 75% wins the game, but it takes a few turns.

[ilovesaprolings]

I ended up banning craterhoof with my friends and we are happy about it. Too strong, too boring, too brainless. Lot of cards get outclassed by him.
He got replaced by Pathbreaker Ibex, Thunderfoot Baloth and End-Raze Forerunners. All of them requires way more work than craterhoof, they are not "oops, i win" cards.

[Myllior]

Playing The Hoof makes me want to yell "Hoof da!" and take a drink, because of the "St. Olaf Woman of the Year" episode of The Golden Girls, but I never seem to draw it outside my LGS. It's also pretty disgusting to drop a clone off a Kodama of the East Tree trigger and get a second Hoof immediately.

It's a strong card and I had many wide-eyed "woah" moments when I first saw it played - it seemed super cool - but the sheen does wear off. I still enjoy playing it and get a chuckle out of being able to drop 2-4 of them on the winning turn, but if my playgroup asked me to stop using it then I'd be happy to put it aside.

[PrimevalCommander]

The most times I have lost to Craterhoof have been either of Tooth and Nail, or one of the best green tutors not mentioned yet, Natural Order. I don't play it anywhere currently, for power reasons. My mono green Titania, Protector of Argoth plays Pathbreaker Ibex, Overwhelming Stampede, and End-Raze Forerunners because they are more fun and less easy-mode. Finale of Devastation is on my wish list, but the price! Chord of Calling for Pathbreaker (eot) or Forerunners does a similar job, so I haven't made that investment yet.

[RxPhantom]

Createrhoof is boring. I don't think I'd run it in my mono-green stomp deck even if I had one.

[3drinks]

Monday, December 14th, 2020; Mystic Compass

I can think of a few uses. They're all niche, but at least they exist.

[Serenade]

The errata on this lets you pick Maze now. Weird change.

Since -walk abilities have gone by the wayside, I do not think I will add to my collection. Maaaaaybe if I try Wrexial, the Risen Deep since I like how you can reuse it, but I probably would stick with Spreading Seas or Quicksilver Fountain first.

[onering]

The errata on this lets you pick Maze now. Weird change.

Since -walk abilities have gone by the wayside, I do not think I will add to my collection. Maaaaaybe if I try Wrexial, the Risen Deep since I like how you can reuse it, but I probably would stick with Spreading Seas or Quicksilver Fountain first.

What's this about maze? The oracle text on gatherer is "Target land becomes the basic land type of your choice until end of turn."

[Serenade]

Yep, I just meant the original text says "mana-producing land," so I think Maze would have not been targetable back in the day.

[Wallycaine]

Yep, I just meant the original text says "mana-producing land," so I think Maze would have not been targetable back in the day.

Yeah, that's a bit of a funky change, but I think it's because the rules don't currently support "mana-producing land" as a definition, and they decided that it was easier to just have a small errata to Mystic Compass than add an entire definition to the rulebook for precisely 1 card.

[onering]

Yep, I just meant the original text says "mana-producing land," so I think Maze would have not been targetable back in the day.

I get it now, I was just confused and thought you meant it let you pick maze as a type lol.