MCD: White Board Protection Instants

[yeti1069]

Second, I think it says something about how much we use indestructible effects that people gloss over the number of "can't be regenerated" pieces of removal that are commonly played. Everyone will say "oh, Flawless Maneuver has nothing on that Swords/Path/Farewell", but people are absolutely indestructibling there way through Pongify, Rapid Hybridization, Damnation, Damn, Big Game Hunter, or oblique wraths like Decree of Pain, Winds of Rath, or Rout. Places where a cute Death Ward|ICE wouldn't do the job.

There aren't many anti-regen cards being played in a numerical sense, but, I have seen a lot of the cards above. I also see randoms like Putrefy or Snuff Out. That 'bury' text is out there, and people seem to have forgotten because Indestructible has replaced regeneration in the design space.

That's because a lot of these were written before indestructible got to be big, i.e. when the effect was rare and overcosted. For example if we got Damnation today, it'd read;

All creatures lose indestructible. Then destroy them. (similar enough to Hour of Devastation.)

Which functionally does what they want the game to do now, but the issue is regeneration still exists and has to be accounted for in design until they finally eliminate it/merge it into indestructible, or whatever.

Emphasis mine. The reasons why don't matter. It *is* the case currently. I personally don't feel like Indestructible is unreliable. Exile removal is good, yes, but it's not like every single card is exile removal. Farewell and Merciless Eviction (a card for which I am infamous for in my playgroup) are strong, but that doesn't mean that indestructible isn't 'reliable'. It means that you get two more turns of nonsense before someone maybe leverages an exile wipe.

Edit: I'm being unclear here. If someone leverages Farewell over Wrath of God, Indestructible kind of buys you a turn or two because of the increased cost. The advantage, while subtle, is not insignificant.

This may be true for exile-based wipes (although, we have a couple creature-only at 5 mana), but Toxic Deluge comes in at 3 mana, and there are a handful of other -x/-x wipes that exist at 3 or 4 mana. There are also a handful of 4 mana mass bounce spells of various configurations. Then there are wide sacrifice effects at 4 and 5 mana.

I had a game a while back where I had both a Mutational Advantage and Contractual Safeguard in hand, through 3 board wipes that neither could help with, and I found myself wondering why I was bothering with these thematic protection spells over more comprehensive answers.

Looking at EDHREC's list of the most played instants over the last 2 years:
1. Swords to Plowshares
2. Path to Exile
4. Beast Within
5. Chaos Warp
6. Assassin's Trophy
8. Cyclonic Rift
9. Generous Gift
11. Anguished Unmaking

So, 3 of the top 8 spot removal spells are affected by indestructible. Obviously hexproof is protection vs all of these except an overloaded CycRift.

For sorceries:
4. Blasphemous Act
9. Ruinous Ultimatum
10. Feed the Swarm
12. Toxic Deluge
14. Damn
15. Vandalblast
17. Supreme Verdict
19. Farewell
21. Auster Command

This looks much better for indestructible protection. Kind of surprised the Ultimatum is so high on the list.

One huge advantage of the indestructible-granting cards, is you can use them proactively alongside your own board wipe.

I'll also note that I generally favor Austere Command over Farewell still, since all of my decks have some recursion built into them, and I'd generally prefer to break parity on a wipe in some way (saving some of my creatures, or being able to recur whatever gets killed) to having a more comprehensive wipe. I think I'm playing Farewell in my enchantress deck, which has a few sources of indestructible, but generally leans on creatures a little less, and runs 0 artifacts, so it can more easily break parity on 2 modes, and depending on how the game has gone so far, may also break parity on the graveyard exile (auras go to the yard as state based effects, so if I wipe creatures and yards, my auras will end up in the grave after Farewell has resolved). I also run Farewell in Osgir, who has only 1 or 2 enchantments, and can often sacrifice key creatures beforehand to not get hit too hard by creatures being exiled, though it hurts having the grave exiled.

[yeti1069]

I am in agreement that Indestructible still has merit, and I will continue to play it. However I am not going to argue phasing's ability to skirt pretty much every option for mass-removal there is, which adds a significant amount of flexibility. I will be diversifying my protection to include both where I can, and prioritize phasing where I can't.

I think also the narrowness of Indestructible's requirement adds value to cards like Guardian of Faith, Careful Concealment or Teferi's Protection (or plain straight up counterspells). I have watched my friends tear their hair out against my maindecked Avacyn, Angel of Hope, finally find a Farewell, Hallowed Burial or Merciless Eviction only to eat a phase-out and still not have a real answer to a board full of threats + Avacyn.

I also think an interesting thing that's being a little sidestepped in this whole conversation is that we're talking about White's anti-wipe cards like they're really good, but for the vast majority of them, a simple counterspell is just as good if they're in w/u/x. Teferi's Protection is an obvious standout, and the freebies are free (natch), so that's a huge plus, but the vast majority of the time, when someone is leveraging a wipe that isn't Supreme Verdict, Negate is just as good as Unbreakable Formation or similar.

Not necessarily. It depends on what the rest of the table looks like; if someone else is about even with you, or ahead, a counter spell may be detrimental to your overall plan, whereas protecting your board and letting everyone else's get wiped puts you pretty far ahead in most cases.

[Sinis]

This may be true for exile-based wipes (although, we have a couple creature-only at 5 mana), but Toxic Deluge comes in at 3 mana, and there are a handful of other -x/-x wipes that exist at 3 or 4 mana. There are also a handful of 4 mana mass bounce spells of various configurations. Then there are wide sacrifice effects at 4 and 5 mana.

I had a game a while back where I had both a Mutational Advantage and Contractual Safeguard in hand, through 3 board wipes that neither could help with, and I found myself wondering why I was bothering with these thematic protection spells over more comprehensive answers.

<snip>

So, 3 of the top 8 spot removal spells are affected by indestructible. Obviously hexproof is protection vs all of these except an overloaded CycRift.

<snip>

This looks much better for indestructible protection. Kind of surprised the Ultimatum is so high on the list.

One huge advantage of the indestructible-granting cards, is you can use them proactively alongside your own board wipe.

<snip>

I think the case I was trying to make (for indestructible) is that while the most popular removal and wipes beat Indestructible, that the pool for that is only so deep. Cards like Farewell and Toxic Deluge are exceptions to the paradigm I'm suggesting. If someone is in Naya, for example, they have Swords, Path, (maybe) Chaos Warp, Farewell, and maybe Hallowed Burial... and then that's it. That's it. They need one of those five cards. The list of the most popular instants totally beat indestructible, but there's only so many Anguished Unmakings to go around, basically. If a player is in white, they'll have a few options, more if they're in w/b/x, but once you hedge out White (and not every deck at a table is going to be w/x), Indestructible gets a lot better. Perhaps it's my group, where there's plenty of b/g, grixis, gruul or basically non-White decks.

For wipes, I have definitely seen some Toxic Deluges around, and it works very well. But, I rarely see any other -X/-X anything. The odd Meathook Massacre, maybe a stray Olivia's Wrath, Mutilate or Dead of Winter (and if we're being honest about it, the only Mutilates or Dead of Winters I've ever seen have been mine). Nobody is playing Languish. I basically only ever see Toxic Deluge.

Not necessarily. It depends on what the rest of the table looks like; if someone else is about even with you, or ahead, a counter spell may be detrimental to your overall plan, whereas protecting your board and letting everyone else's get wiped puts you pretty far ahead in most cases.

Yeah, I'll cop to this, where a protection effect might be better because there's a secondary threat, but I find this situation doesn't come up a whole lot, or where the secondary threat's board is so inferior that it might as well not exist. IME, a player will pop off and nobody has a comparable pop off, because of how high the ceilings are on many of cards being printed in the last 5 years or so.

[Moxnix]

I saw on discord from my buddy a tef protection after they announced sponge bob for aight ima head out i hope it becomes a thing XD.

[ISBPathfinder]

I thought I would mention that some effects like a sac strategy using Grave Pact / Dictate of Erebos have probably gained some power if these sort of cards are seeing any regular play in your meta. The fact that they tend to be repeated use effects over multiple sacs makes a single protect effect difficult to protect against.

[yeti1069]

I thought I would mention that some effects like a sac strategy using Grave Pact / Dictate of Erebos have probably gained some power if these sort of cards are seeing any regular play in your meta. The fact that they tend to be repeated use effects over multiple sacs makes a single protect effect difficult to protect against.

While certainly true, I see much less of this than I used to, and I've backed off employing these sorts of effects myself in large numbers. That's part of an overall shift away from oppressive gameplay, I think

[Sinis]

I thought I would mention that some effects like a sac strategy using Grave Pact / Dictate of Erebos have probably gained some power if these sort of cards are seeing any regular play in your meta. The fact that they tend to be repeated use effects over multiple sacs makes a single protect effect difficult to protect against.

While certainly true, I see much less of this than I used to, and I've backed off employing these sorts of effects myself in large numbers. That's part of an overall shift away from oppressive gameplay, I think

I was going to say; this has been my playgroups move. Sometimes someone will play Butcher of Malakir because creatures are easier to answer, but it's been a while since I've seen a Dictate of Erebos or Gravepact.

[pokken]

Creature lockout strats in general are just so dang tedious.

[onering]

I'm actually surprised Stroke of Midnight isn't higher on the instants list, it's just so good. 3 is a lot for instant speed removal but the flexibility is amazing and I've never been sad to draw it, there's always something that I need to use it on. A paltry 1/1 human left behind is basically just trinket text.

[PrimevalCommander]

I'm actually surprised Stroke of Midnight isn't higher on the instants list, it's just so good. 3 is a lot for instant speed removal but the flexibility is amazing and I've never been sad to draw it, there's always something that I need to use it on. A paltry 1/1 human left behind is basically just trinket text.

The thread topic is board protection spells in white, not removal spells in white. Though Stroke of Midnight is a great card. I suspect it is being diluted by the other 5 or so other white removal spells printed this year, many at 1 or 2 mana instead of 3.

[PrimevalCommander]

Hmm, 7 months and no new white board protection spells have come out. I am surprised with WotC's lull in attention for this card type. I didn't say disappointed, just surprised. I think we are at a pretty good place with options today. We saw Spectacular Pileup come out in Aetherdrift that makes the indestructible protection even less effective. While I don't expect the Pileup to overtake any of the most played wipes, the text "lose indestructible" or "lose all abilities" has seen a couple printings this past year. Final Showdown being another one. I think the Pileup is a pretty darn good budget wipe because of the arms race between removal and protection. It is pretty trivial to give something hexproof and indestructible if you want it, so taking that out eliminates over half of the outs your opponent's have to keep their stuff around. Exile wipes are also very good, and we have one pretty good one at 5 mana who's name escapes me. But if you do not want your stuff exiled, but you want the board clear, Pileup is a good option. I typically have a severe aversion to exiling my own things, so exile wipes generally don't make my lists for this reason.

I am fully convinced that Phasing is the #1 best way to protect your field. Despite the ability for your opponent's to attack you while your stuff is phased out, you are typically only using it because your things would have been gone anyway. I picked up a couple Dawn's Truce due to the attractive price point, and reasonable mana value, but competition is getting steep now in this space.

I think green could use another option, since Heroic Intervention is the only reliable option right now. I don't count Smuggler's Surprise as "reliable".

Bets on when we will see the first "All permanent's phase in. Destroy all Creatures" wipe? I'm thinking next year at the latest since Tef Prot and crew are so effective. Make it and no one will play it anyway.

[Mookie]

Hmm, 7 months and no new white board protection spells have come out.

• Protection Magic
• Moogles' Valor
• Duty Beyond Death
• Divine Resilience
• The Wandering Rescuer
• Perch Protection
• Dawn's Truce

We've been getting one or two new options in most sets, and that's not counting single-target protection effects like Lightfoot Technique or more conditional ones like Ainok Strike Leader, Basri, Tomorrow's Champion, and Bulwark Ox.

[Moxnix]

protection magic was pretty good the first cast in my precon vs other precons saved my team vs a vanquish the horde

[PrimevalCommander]

Hmm, 7 months and no new white board protection spells have come out.

• Protection Magic
• Moogles' Valor
• Duty Beyond Death
• Divine Resilience
• The Wandering Rescuer
• Perch Protection
• Dawn's Truce

We've been getting one or two new options in most sets, and that's not counting single-target protection effects like Lightfoot Technique or more conditional ones like Ainok Strike Leader, Basri, Tomorrow's Champion, and Bulwark Ox.

Good point. Guess I was glazing over most of these. My surprise is doused

I had noticed a couple of the Final Fantasy cards, but being UB, they didn't stick to my brain. I'll add a few of these to the first post. Though some of the more niche ones I think I'll just leave here in the discussion section. Restoration Magic is the one I almost bit on, but the full send for just didn't appeal to me.

I even pulled a Duty Beyond Death and thought it a somewhat playable card due to the mass pump and put it in my deck building box. With Divine Resilience having a Galadriel's Dismissal-at-home feel with the split cost. Pretty decent tech at uncommon.

[Moxnix]

I see Glads in every isp build ever and always think that looks really good and he must think its generically very good i should try it but i remember to but it looks so flexible and always useful. Its art reminds me of mist of lorian and i love that card. Also after playing my budget storm ive used release the winds in a few decks now very good card for similar reasons flexible

[ISBPathfinder]

I see Glads in every isp build ever and always think that looks really good and he must think its generically very good i should try it but i remember to but it looks so flexible and always useful. Its art reminds me of mist of lorian and i love that card. Also after playing my budget storm ive used release the winds in a few decks now very good card for similar reasons flexible

I just made this post a few days ago regarding it:

@PrimevalCommander I agree with your protection assessments. I'd run Galadriel's Dismissal if I had a copy, but it's pricey-ish. I already had a copy of Flawless Maneuver so that's in there instead. I'm surprised at how much it's increased in price. Damn!! And I may try out Zack Fair. Thanks for pointing him out. I'm currently running Imp's Mischief and Tibalt's Trickery as reactive low-cost protection pieces. Imps for any targeted and Tibalt's against wipes. Perhaps I'll swap Tibalts for Galadriel's and Imps for Zach. Although I enjoy those two cards for the "gotcha" factor.

Just to give some feedback, you can use Galadriel's Dismissal on opponents as a fog of their attack. I have used it to blank blockers as well hitting opponents with it. Its really brutal when you stop a huge overrun effect and leave someone defenseless as well via it. On top of that the fact that its a phase out means that you can duck things like Cyclonic Rift (to your creatures at least) as well as exile / sac / -/- sweeps. Phase out is so superior to indestructible its tough to compare but I guess with indestructible you can do things like chump block and still be there to kill things you blocked on. There is just a lot of versatility to Galadriel's beyond just wrath defense.

I was actually likely to die this last week to a cEDH deck via Seedborn Muse + Thrasios, Triton Hero but I hit him on his end of turn with a kicked Galadriel's Dismissal stripping him of blockers and his untap. Its hard to not come up with some odd situation where its effective.

Its not super cheap to keep the 4 mana up for it kicked but even the single mana option has a lot of flexibility in a pinch. I actually like it more than Teferi's Protection of late due to its flexibility but it depends a little on how much you want to protect noncreatures obviously and Teferi's is stronger purely defensively but the flexibility of Galadriel's is amazing.

I have actually been having so much of an issue with players playing proactive heavy decks that defend via these type of spells I am curious if they don't make a split second wrath in the future because its so hard to commit to sweeping when someone just pays a few mana to duck the sweep. I have been a fan of some of the cheap sweepers that you can avoid hitting yourself with like Split Up in part due to this as well because then my commitment to the sweep is low both mana and board impact wise.

[Moxnix]

You have sold me rick needs one lol ill have to pick one up in paper I dont think I own one but yea i saw it in all your builds was like he must think its always good then i was thinking about how versatile of a card it really is and was like yea it probably is that good and the price keeps going up which means others using it and goign hmm that's good too lol. Ill have to try split up as well hmm.

[ISBPathfinder]

I also think that the game changers list existing with Teferi's on it gives a bit of incentive to play the one not on the list especially given its still cheaper to obtain even if its not quite same use cases.

[Moxnix]

I dont even like teferis so much tbh I like the free ones way more like clever concealment and flawless maneuver but this right here also has like a 1 player winds of Abaddon overload for 4 that i can use at instant to fog or dodge wraths one sided it could be a kill condition on turn as well in a way I already ordered one and put it in mtgos rick deck

[PrimevalCommander]

Looking again back at the recent uncommons, I am glad they are making these style of cards a bit less aggressively costed. Though honestly, I have enough cheap and free protection spells to cover most every need I would have in a white deck. I think they should start looking at color bleeding a few more of these into green and maybe red to help those colors with board wipe blowout. Putting a small drawback on the spell, or making it a single-target protection with a more inclusive option at an additional cost is a good place for a protection spell to be. Flexibility is key for a reactive spell like this that requires very narrow timing to be effective.

I think that is why we only see Tef Prot getting the most saturation. You don't want to be sitting on a bunch of protection pieces waiting for some interaction that might not come. So putting more than 1 or 2 in your deck is a significant cost to card tempo unless you can guarantee you will be seeing 1 or more wipes per game. And even if you could, having 2 pieces is not reliable enough to protect you from the coming removal. So you have 3 options, ignore board protection spells altogether and lean to mass reanimation or higher levels of card draw to compensate (most decks prior to 2017), sprinkle in your 1 or 2 favorite items and maybe you have it when you need it ("Tef Prot or bust"), or overcompensate (like I do) with 4-5 slots and try to game the meta to get a big tempo swing from the opponents wipes, and hope your protection matches their interaction (ie. Destroy vs. indestructible). It is a very tight rope to walk, which is why this design space is interesting to me. The more flexible the protection, the more slots you can afford to put in and expect it to be live at any given time.

For now they are back on Indestructible, which is unfortunately one of the weakest forms of mass protection. I think there is room for some more mass blink options with some various drawbacks or upsides based on mana value. Big thing is it doesn't protect tokens, but still it's better counter play than phasing. Maybe a modal mass blink spell that can save non-land permanents. Has there been a modal mass-blink that can blink 1 thing or all the things? Divine Resilience but blink? I like Gilraen, Dúnedain Protector ability to slow blink or fast blink something depending on the need.