March 2020 AMA

[Hermes_]

it was downvoted,but now there's also a rumor of someone having left the CAG or RC

[toctheyounger]

You heard it on Reddit first, apparently.

These other comments are interesting. I was going to elaborate with further thoughts, but I honestly don't have the energy. At least there's some reasoned, non-vitriolic comments, even if some of the logic used to take apart Sheldon's statements is not perfect. A lot of those comments read like people who are intentionally trying to take apart an argument, too, which isn't exactly a stable foundation to argue from.

[RxPhantom]

tl;dr: "Sheldon is out of touch with the player base because he won't ban Flash." - r/cEDH

Reddit is just a wasteland of people being the worst version of themselves.

[pokken]

The misapplication of the slippery slope fallacy is rapidly becoming one of my top ten least favorite philosophical abuses.

[cryogen]

it was downvoted,but now there's also a rumor of someone having left the CAG or RC

Sheldon already debunked this, although I know you know this since you asked him on Twitter :D

[Hermes_]

it was downvoted,but now there's also a rumor of someone having left the CAG or RC

Sheldon already debunked this, although I know you know this since you asked him on Twitter :D

yeah,it was me misunderstanding the comment

[Treamayne]

I know Sheldon already answered some things here, in thread; but did the actual AMA ever post?

[Hermes_]

I know Sheldon already answered some things here, in thread; but did the actual AMA ever post?

https://articles.starcitygames.com/prem ... -anything/

[bobthefunny]

I know it's all the hype right now, but calling the Reddit c/EDH thread trash, or out of touch, is not productive at all. It's really throwing the same kind of insults/segregation and downplaying of their opinions that we're attributing to them.

Yes, a number of users there are not being as open minded as they could be. Yes, a number of users there are being straight up insulting and vindictive. But you can find people of this description everywhere, even Salvation, and even here. To segregate and generalize that to be representative of the entire group is a disservice to what we hope to represent in this community, and the greater EDH community overall.

[RxPhantom]

You misunderstand, Reddit in general is awful, not just the cEDH sub.

[pokken]

You misunderstand, Reddit in general is awful, not just the cEDH sub.

Because it's moderated by mob justice

[toctheyounger]

To be fair though, all social media is the same. We're blessed here (and we're at salvation too) in that it takes a master level sh*tposter to achieve any measurable trolling. It's probably that it takes a considerable amount more effort on this medium, you can't just mic drop and walk away. Reddit generally IS awful, as most of those transient mediums are. And that does go for most Reddit threads too - I've delved a bit with other interests and people will just say anything, because they can, regardless of how poorly it reflects on them.

That being said I'm with bob in the essence of his statement that writing off the cEDH community is not what we're here for. There's disagreements between casual and competitive at some fundamental levels but there's similarities too. I won't engage on reddit personally, and MtG content on FB is mostly pretty lackluster anyway, but I'm all for open discourse. And the posters who have jumped from Reddit and made an effort to engage with us here have given evidence to this for the most part, in that the discussion they've provided has been pretty informative and constructive.

[Sinis]

I know it's all the hype right now, but calling the Reddit c/EDH thread trash, or out of touch, is not productive at all. It's really throwing the same kind of insults/segregation and downplaying of their opinions that we're attributing to them.

Yes, a number of users there are not being as open minded as they could be. Yes, a number of users there are being straight up insulting and vindictive. But you can find people of this description everywhere, even Salvation, and even here. To segregate and generalize that to be representative of the entire group is a disservice to what we hope to represent in this community, and the greater EDH community overall.

I guess, I never hear the cEDH people saying "Wow, I guess we really are insisting on tournament rules and a competitively robust ban list for the last surviving casual format that was explicitly never intended to be competitive." All I ever hear is "Flash is a 2-mana non-interactive combo enabler that's posing a huge problem, and is unbalanced because blah blah blah". They never address the point that they are in the minority, and that this format was always intended to be casual with a minimal banlist except by dismissing it saying "well, times have changed."

On the other side of the coin, I absolutely empathize with the cEDH crowd's feeling that they feel they aren't heard. It's not like the rules announcements saying "We like everything how it is" ever addresses the Flash Problem™, even if it's to say "this is a non-problem; it's a bug in someone else's design and not one in our own." I believe seldom see that empathy on from the casual crowd here because we are being subjected to occasional drive-bys by members who are not of, and have no interest in participating in our community. It's hard to have a dialogue with someone who wants to run and gun, or have a username like "sheldonshouldretire".

But, that's the worst of them. Let's take a different tack: Spleenface is well-known from reddit and other communities, and to his credit, has been far more respectful than other cEDH proponents who have visited here. But, is he going to become a regular? His account is as old as mine, but the post count isn't there. I doubt they're reading this forum for material.

Why bring up Spleenface? Because, despite his well-reasoned positions and generally polite demeanor, I don't believe there is a middle ground here.

I think the real acknowledgment needs to be about format splits. Not only is there an ideological divide about how the format should be run, but there is a real community divide as well. While mtgnexus, mtgsalvation and the mtgcommander official forums (RIP) were hosts for casuals, cEDH players have long since been on other mediums like reddit and discord, where casuals do not generally go. Until then, we're just going to have increasing vitriol on both sides until such a time as Flash is explicitly kept unbanned. Or, in the event Flash is banned, when the next Flash-like bugbear appears and isn't banned despite vocal advocacy.

[bobthefunny]

I don't disagree that there is a split in the format, or even disagree that there's a difference of opinion. I certainly don't have any idea on how to bridge the differences, or if there even is a way to bridge the differences, or even if it is a good idea to bridge those differences.

All I'm saying is that handwaving and writing them off as "They don't matter because they're terrible and insulting," is itself terrible and insulting. It's hypocritical at best. It also prevents any kind of meaningful discussion if they're pre-regulated to being part of that category.

My point isn't about the topic at hand, but a higher step up of how we're discussing the topic at hand. While I don't agree with their stances or positions, I also am rather put off by how they've been pigeon holed in this thread. There are several posts that essentially describe the place as a toxic wastepit of insulting people - but why would they come discuss things here, when this thread is full of people insulting them? This stifles any possible meaningful exchange before it begins.

There's a line between detailing one's experiences and the state of another forum, versus outright insulting everyone that participates in that forum, or of all cEDH players as being trash. We shouldn't attribute the sins of the vocal ones to include everyone by default.

[MrMystery314]

As a competitive player who joined here during the Paradox Engine controversy and stuck around due to the refreshing opinions, I'm not quite sure why I'd stick around either if I were in favor of banning Flash. Then again, I'm not sure why I stick around given how I don't think most casual players want to deal with Prime Time, Leovold, and whatever else as rule 0 cases. That's beside the point, though; isn't the golden rule "treat others the way you want to be treated?" And if we're going to grumble here about how most competitive players are being short-sighted and purposely ignoring elementary arguments, I think most of Reddit would characterize us as Sheldon's flunkies or misfits tired of being downvoted. And just as we'd deny those accusations they would too. Do keep in mind that most of r/EDH consists of casual players trying to improve their brews, with the same players who cry for Flash's banning helping them considerately. And a decent chunk of the competitive EDH reddit is people posting videos of them having a blast playing high-powered decks with friends. I'm sure they don't live-stream the meetings of the cabal where they plot how to send trolls here or start a witch hunt to ban decks under $1000, but that's probably because those meetings don't exist. All this "handwaving," as Bob puts it, dismissing them as incorrigibles who actively refuse to see the error in their ways, only makes us either wagon wheels spinning in a muddy, hapless rut or careening wildly as we spin down a cliff face. I'd like to think most of us are neither, but if for some reason your well-articulated arguments aren't convincing them, whose fault is it? Are they all impervious to reason, or does the fault lie within ourselves?

[Treamayne]

I know Sheldon already answered some things here, in thread; but did the actual AMA ever post?

https://articles.starcitygames.com/prem ... -anything/

Danke mucho.

[Lots of Competitive Commander (CC?, Com²?) back-and-forth]

It seems easy to me, but maybe I'm a senile moron. I enjoy the games I like, they enjoy the games they like. And that's good. As long as they don't sit at my table pretending to play the game I like while wielding the decks they like, I have no problems with them enjoying their games.

What I haven't seen anybody address is this: Is the Com2 crowd asking their LGSs to store ban Flash for tournaments? Are tournament organizers (who, in theory, would be part of this crowd) not tracking the issues and banning Flash in their venues? If the banlist is meant to be a "start" and "guideline" to craft the games each playgroup/venue wants to enjoy; why does this issue have to be handled only by an official RC ban? Even on MTGO, you can at least request "no Flash" for the game when you make the table.

Even more weirdly noticeable by its absence: Why is nobody talking about the elephant in the room? Protean Hulk was already banned before. Was unbanning it the real problem.? Maybe it should be banned again?

[Segrus]

What I haven't seen anybody address is this: Is the Com2 crowd asking their LGSs to store ban Flash for tournaments? Are tournament organizers (who, in theory, would be part of this crowd) not tracking the issues and banning Flash in their venues? If the banlist is meant to be a "start" and "guideline" to craft the games each playgroup/venue wants to enjoy; why does this issue have to be handled only by an official RC ban? Even on MTGO, you can at least request "no Flash" for the game when you make the table.

As I understand it, and with every intention to be delicate to a position I don't hold to, cEDH doesn't recognize 'rule 0'--that is, stores or tournaments banning cards not on the banlist. Only the banlist, exactly as is, is allowed in cEDH. The banlist isn't acknowledged as a guideline, even if that goes against how the rest of the community views it.

On the subject of bad mouthing reddit, which I have done here previously, I've tried to remain as fair as possible. I've tried to steer clear of just being vitriolic without any direction or purpose. But I was driven away from there as a casual player who likes finding new inclusions and helping others.

[cryogen]

I think the issue is that Reddit has a vocal minority which has been allowed to negatively skew perceptions of the site. After all, look as MTGS back before Bob, ISB, and I started cracking down on the trolls. The RC barely gave us the time of day as well because of a few bad apples.

[pokken]

I think the issue is that Reddit has a vocal minority which has been allowed to negatively skew perceptions of the site. After all, look as MTGS back before Bob, ISB, and I started cracking down on the trolls. The RC barely gave us the time of day as well because of a few bad apples.

I would add that a much less-mean but somewhat disingenuous minority has attempted to coerce the dialog into a perception of unanimity regarding what "the CEDH community" wants.

There's a pretty comprehensive campaign to display that if you're not in alignment with "The CEDH Community" party line you're a bad guy who's not representative of CEDH players (regardless of whether you're just being a jerk or think that the banlist should split or strongly feel there need to be more CEDH bannings, etc.).

Things "The CEDH Community" party line holds (as far as I can tell)
* All we want is flash and then we'lll go away, no asking for future bans. p.s. any argument to the contrary is a slippery slope
* There will be all kinds of diversity again after Flash is banned
* Non-blue decks especially are the ones being held down specifically by Flash
* There is no meaningful casual play of Flash
* Everyone has wanted flash banned since hulk got unbanned
* CEDH has been around for like 10 years and they have never asked for a ban ever
* The CEDH metagame has never been stale like this before and there's no reason to think that the increased attention on CEDH brewing is what made it stale as opposed to Flash.

But then you talk to individual CEDH players and almost all of them differ on at least one point.

It's probably just me that sees conspiracy everywhere but I feel that all the guys going around correcting and trying to rein in the more aggressive folks are doing a political job of trying to get Flash through regardless of whether any of that platform is really true.

In particular I find the claim that they won't ask for more bans extremely, well, a bit hinky? There's a pretty big community that wants more aggressive banning for CEDH and those guys are continually silenced or ignored.

The more I think about it the more I think that people just were not playing CEDH That well 4-5 years ago when CEDH started to hit its stride. Kinda like the early days of Modern people could play Soul Sisters and what jank and now it's so tuned that you can't really do anything except play meta decks.

I look at my sushi hulk deck and then I compare that to my Arcum deck from 2014 or so and it's like...laughable?

[Sinis]

In particular I find the claim that they won't ask for more bans extremely, well, a bit hinky? There's a pretty big community that wants more aggressive banning for CEDH and those guys are continually silenced or ignored.

The more I think about it the more I think that people just were not playing CEDH That well 4-5 years ago when CEDH started to hit its stride. Kinda like the early days of Modern people could play Soul Sisters and what jank and now it's so tuned that you can't really do anything except play meta decks.

I look at my sushi hulk deck and then I compare that to my Arcum deck from 2014 or so and it's like...laughable?

This has been my impression, as well.

When the Having Your Voice Heard thread was active, I went to the older sites to see how long I had been participating in brewing for this sort of thing. There were threads on the official site from 2013 about 5c Hermit Druid, or Azami. The lists were woefully underpowered by today's standards.

I have long maintained that even if Flash were to be banned, the format would be broken again in 6 months.

[Treamayne]

* There is no meaningful casual play of Flash
* Everyone has wanted flash banned since hulk got unbanned

I would like to see some data on this that isn't an "EDHRec" percentage number. For example here, in this thread, I posted about how I am currently running Flash. I have never posted a deck to EDHRec*. I have never even been to the website. I am not alone. I would postulate that there are far more casual players that have never heard of, or visited, EDHRec than there are players that self-identify as casual and use EDHRec as a resource (of whatever kind). Percentage numbers there likely mean nothing when discussing casual use of any card.

In my (biased) opinion, it's this simple:
- Flash wasn't a problem before the Hulk un-ban
- Flash isn't a problem anywhere now, except C2 Flash-hulk metas
- Flash isn't the problem, remove Hulk again and let us casual players keep Flash - or - ban Flash locally in your meta.

*I believe I have posted less than 10 decklists online, ever. And that includes the Iron Chef competitions on the old Official Forums.

[Hermes_]

I've talked to a few people on the Cedh discord,which were more friendly and easier to have a discussion with than Reddit.

[Sinis]

I would like to see some data on this that isn't an "EDHRec" percentage number. For example here, in this thread, I posted about how I am currently running Flash.

I, too, have posted about playing Flash, and never uploaded a deck to EDHrec.

However, I would contend that the argument is that EDHrec stats are an acceptable representation of decks out in the wild (I don't think they are, but what you're asking for here is tantamount to an unmeetable burden of proof, barring a massive effort of in-person surveys to capture people who don't visit any online Magic material).

[Treamayne]

but what you're asking for here is tantamount to an unmeetable burden of proof

I'm sorry. I was not trying to set any burden of proof (much less an impossible one).

I am genuinely curious of there is *any* data other than EDHRec implying a lack of casual use(s) of/for Flash.

[Sinis]

I'm sorry. I was not trying to set any burden of proof (much less an impossible one).

I am genuinely curious of there is *any* data other than EDHRec implying a lack of casual use(s) of/for Flash.

I think EDHrec is often cited because it's the the most robust source of data around. There was a user on mtgsalvation named scoeri who had some statistics about decks posted to the forum, but it was usually top 50 lists. Flash, unsurprisingly, does not feature.

I don't doubt that Flash is not played much in casual. I would venture that edhrec actually skews competitive, since casuals seem intuitively less likely to input their decks into a data-machine like edhrec, or even post their decks online. I think Flash is played even less than edhrec would indicate. I think that's neither here nor there for its banning, though.