Questing Knights and the Wrong Colors

[Vessiliana]

I have tried, off and on, for years, to build a Knights deck. Sometimes, I just really like a tribe or a commander or concept, and sometimes I just ... can't get it done.

For instance, I toyed with 5-color Elves or with Kels, Fight Fixer at the head of Zombie tribal. (In the end, I went Sultai for the Elves and gave the Zombies to Varina.)

But sometimes, I manage it. Like with my Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis Enchantress deck.

All that to say, I am now trying (yet again) to build Knights. I had a Syr Gwyn, Hero of Ashvale deck, but it was too weak for my meta. I have done Esper Knights before, but there was always a heavy focus on equipment. Is it possible to build GWUB Knights, without the equipment focus? I mean, I've thrown a pile together and put Ravos, Soultender and Thrasios, Triton Hero at the head of it, but is there some secret coolness that could help here? Is this just a situation where my quest for Knights without red (or equipment) is futile?

[Sinis]

@bobthefunny has a good Orzhov Knights tribal deck (link). It's somewhat equipment-oriented, but, I wouldn't say that's central to it.

I think the real question is how you're going to leverage the fact that you're playing Knight tribal in a strong meta. The powerful Knight-specific cards are pretty well documented (Kinsbaile Cavalier, Knight Exemplar, Valiant Knight, Knight's Charge, The Circle of Loyalty -- and those last two only kind of), and they're okay, but definitely not numerous.

Everything else you could use is typical tribal stuff, like Coat of Arms, or Kindred Discovery.

Is this just a situation where my quest for Knights without red (or equipment) is futile?

I would venture that one of the main difficulties you might have is that, without specifically using equipment is that there's nothing that separates them from being on par with more popular tribes. The other tribes tend to have more tribe-specific synergy; there are very few cards that reference Knights when you compare them to Merfolk/Vampires/Zombies/Goblins. If your meta is strong, you'll need something equally strong to push back, and most knights just don't have good enough text in them to make it work.

I think there are some powerful knights that are overlooked (like Stromgald Cabal|ICE and Order of the Sacred Torch|ICE). I also think that if you play enough creatures, there are some overlooked cards that could be for any tribe that might work, like Call to the Kindred or Descendants' Path. If your environment is more powerful, I don't know if these will make a difference, though.

[darrenhabib]

I can't say I have ever looked at Knight tribal before, so what is special about red?

It seems to be that there is enough going on with black and white and Aryel, Knight of Windgrace looks like a nice choice, although it's not the strongest of commanders.

It looks to me that Haakon, Stromgald Scourge with Buried Alive and Entomb is the secret sauce to a tribal Knight deck.
You could get Haakon, Syr Konrad, the Grim, Dauntless Bodyguard and keep sacrificing (Dauntless Bodyguard) to recast dealing 2 damage to opponents each time.
Add Phyrexian Altar for infinite or Ashnod's Altar with Universal Automaton for infinite colorless mana.

Or Buried Alive for Haakon, Midnight Reaper and Dauntless Bodyguard to draw a card for each w you have.

Run some board sweepers like Hour of Revelation and Austere Command and grind people out with Haakon with resilience of bringing back your Knights.

Use Pull from Eternity as a backup to graveyard removal to put Haakon back into your graveyard.

[Vessiliana]

Thank you, @Sinis. That really helped to articulate my issue! The payoff for Knights is just ... too low. My meta is not overly strong, but it does have a couple of solidly strong decks (like Kenrith, the Returned King or Kykar, Wind's Fury, and even a Thassa-helmed Merfolk tribal and infinite-turns Niv-Mizzet, Parun.

I am afraid that Knights, even with all the equipment (which is currently in my Rarity D&D-themed deck).

Time to rethink, perhaps.

[Sinis]

Thank you, @Sinis. That really helped to articulate my issue! The payoff for Knights is just ... too low. My meta is not overly strong, but it does have a couple of solidly strong decks (like Kenrith, the Returned King or Kykar, Wind's Fury, and even a Thassa-helmed Merfolk tribal and infinite-turns Niv-Mizzet, Parun.

I am afraid that Knights, even with all the equipment (which is currently in my Rarity D&D-themed deck).

Time to rethink, perhaps.

darrenhabib brings up a good point... I think we're overlooking some options.

Haakon, Stromgald Scourge is a pretty powerful card; even outside the stuff he mentioned, there's also Crib Swap and Nameless Inversion. Something like Mirror Entity can make the few good Knight effects much stronger with a group of non-Knights.

[Vessiliana]

Thank you both! And @darrenhabib, that is definitely some interesting tech there! I usually think of the altars as enablers for something like Elenda, the Dusk Rose, but shenanigans with Haakon, Stromgald Scourge sound fun!

[Mimicvat]

Coastal Piracy effects IMO go a long way towards making random tribal decks work, the same way they make any other aggressive, low to the ground deck more effective

[bobthefunny]

I have found that the issue with Syr Gwyn, Hero of Ashvale is precisely the dependence on equipment. Given her ability, she makes a better Equipment deck that happens to have Knights, rather than a Knights deck.

@Sinis was kind enough to link my Knights deck, which definitely sacrifices power for flavor, but still manages to hold well in medium meta's. It mostly tries to build and keep a board over time with indestructible effects, while building up some anthems to help push through the damage. The equipment package is actually rather bare bones - it's mostly in there to have a tutorable slot (Relic Seeker) for ramp , draw, and damage (theme).

The biggest strengths of the deck are the power of White and Black's recursion, while the weakness currently would be the ramp and draw - the latter of which is primarily due to the theming. Black has plenty of powerful draw, but I avoided cards like Promise of Power as being less than Knightly. Likewise, some of the more lackluster Knights could be cut to improve the resilience of the deck, with cards like Sun Titan, Emeria Shepherd, and Luminous Broodmoth, which I don't run due to theme (again). As I run 20+ knights, some slots can be sacrificed for power while retaining a knightly theme.

Haakon, Stromgald Scourge is definitely one of the power cards of the deck, giving lasting recursion, while also giving excellent removal with Nameless Inversion and Crib Swap. I don't actively hard tutor for him the was @darrenhabib mentions, which is a strong possibility, especially if you want to push more combo oriented. I do have Thalia's Lancers though, but don't really have other tutors. I also have limited methods to discard him (again, theme).

Even with those drawbacks, I do find the deck immensely fun to pilot, in part because it is one where I don't need to worry about going at 100% power. I also enjoy a lot of the theming in spells, especially in the indestructible cards, it's fun to say "that's great, but my knights have an Unbreakable Formation!" etc.

[Dunharrow]

The problem with a knight deck in a strong meta is that you may only win with Haakon, at which point you may as well just become a Haakon deck and play more ways to tutor him.

That being said, if you really want to play knights, put haakon in the deck since he is still strong - just make a conscious effort to not play a bunch of tutors.

other ways to help win would be strong control cards and removal. Many knights have protection, first strike, etc, which makes them pretty good in combat and often hard to kill. You also have the lord that makes them indestructible. So rather than trying to be a tribal aggro deck, try to be a midrange control deck that wins with knights.

Because if your goal is to aggro the table then tribal knights is just going to be a lot worse than vampires, zombies, goblins, etc.

[Sinis]

The problem with a knight deck in a strong meta is that you may only win with Haakon, at which point you may as well just become a Haakon deck and play more ways to tutor him.

Are secretly-Haakon decks all that bad, though? I'm not sure I object, especially if there's stuff like Pull from Eternity to make it more resilient.

[Dunharrow]

The problem with a knight deck in a strong meta is that you may only win with Haakon, at which point you may as well just become a Haakon deck and play more ways to tutor him.

Are secretly-Haakon decks all that bad, though? I'm not sure I object, especially if there's stuff like Pull from Eternity to make it more resilient.

I love Haakon decks.
But if you have a lot of tutors, you are just haakon deck with a bunch of knights that do very little.

[Sinis]

The problem with a knight deck in a strong meta is that you may only win with Haakon, at which point you may as well just become a Haakon deck and play more ways to tutor him.

Are secretly-Haakon decks all that bad, though? I'm not sure I object, especially if there's stuff like Pull from Eternity to make it more resilient.

I love Haakon decks.
But if you have a lot of tutors, you are just haakon deck with a bunch of knights that do very little.

Legit. I guess, I've only pulled off the Crib Swap game once, and I think it might be because I haven't ever played 'secret Haakon'. Maybe that's gonna be my next deck...

I also just noticed Gravebreaker Lamia as a way to enable Haakon...

[Stapler]

I had decent success with a Tymna the Weaver + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa "Knights of the Loam" deck in the past, with the idea being to use the cheap 2CMC Knights with protection to bypass your opponents blockers to draw cards with Tymna (further aided by Sidar, who is also a knight!) and using that value to transition to a big mana late-game using Mirror Entity and Tribal Unity in combination with Sidar to make a big unblockable army.

Central to this are powerful lands like Coffers+Urborg, Gaea's Cradle to take advantage of your wide board, and other strong utility lands like Vault of the Archangel and Gavony Township, all tutorable with Knight of the Reliquary and Elvish Reclaimer and recurrable with Life from the Loam and Ramunap Excavator. The only equipment I remember it playing were Lightning Greaves and Umezawa's Jitte.

It also uses Birthing Pod, Survival of the Fittest and Fauna Shaman to semi-reliably find Haakon by pitching the 2 drop Knights, with Angel of Glory's Rise getting all your mostly-human Knights back after you've discarded or sacced them or milled them to loam (just be careful with Haakon the Zombie). I don't know that I'd call it a "secret Haakon deck" - the deck can certainly win without Haakon - but when you've got an enabler as strong as Haakon, why not go all out?

You haven't lived till you've used Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa to make Crusading Knight unblockable and then used Knight of the Reliquary to tutor for Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth.

[MeowZeDung]

You haven't lived till you've used Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa to make Crusading Knight unblockable and then used Knight of the Reliquary to tutor for Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth.

I wouldn't even be mad to lose to that. 10/10.

[Vessiliana]

I had decent success with a Tymna the Weaver + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa "Knights of the Loam" deck in the past, with the idea being to use the cheap 2CMC Knights with protection to bypass your opponents blockers to draw cards with Tymna (further aided by Sidar, who is also a knight!) and using that value to transition to a big mana late-game using Mirror Entity and Tribal Unity in combination with Sidar to make a big unblockable army.

Central to this are powerful lands like Coffers+Urborg, Gaea's Cradle to take advantage of your wide board, and other strong utility lands like Vault of the Archangel and Gavony Township, all tutorable with Knight of the Reliquary and Elvish Reclaimer and recurrable with Life from the Loam and Ramunap Excavator. The only equipment I remember it playing were Lightning Greaves and Umezawa's Jitte.

It also uses Birthing Pod, Survival of the Fittest and Fauna Shaman to semi-reliably find Haakon by pitching the 2 drop Knights, with Angel of Glory's Rise getting all your mostly-human Knights back after you've discarded or sacced them or milled them to loam (just be careful with Haakon the Zombie). I don't know that I'd call it a "secret Haakon deck" - the deck can certainly win without Haakon - but when you've got an enabler as strong as Haakon, why not go all out?

You haven't lived till you've used Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa to make Crusading Knight unblockable and then used Knight of the Reliquary to tutor for Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth.

That sounds really interesting! I might have to see if I can find my old copy of Life from the Loam. I'd definitely need to get a Knight of the Reliquary, but I do have the lands. I'm pretty sure both the Cradles are in other decks, but Urborg is lying around. Something to consider!