Overused Cards in EDH

[pokken]

I will say that I have seriously come around on azorius chancery et al as budget lands. They're so very much better than vivids and ETB tapped duals because they are functional card advantage that always make two colors simultaneously. I really like them when I'm trying to tone a deck down while maintaining consistency.

If you play 3 of them in a 3 color deck you can probably cut one land/mana source, which is very nice.

I actually think they are a bit underplayed - lots of people play those gain 1 life duals before these which is horrible.

[Serpent_Steve]

Merciless Eviction (22k) - One of the greatest things about playing is the enormous recursion potential. Running this stifles that. And yes, it takes out PWs, but just how many Superfriend decks can one face to make this relevant?

Also gonna have to disagree here. It's not just useful against superfriends but also great FOR superfriends as well! What better way to ensure that there are no creatures to threaten your walkers than complete removal!

[hyalopterouslemur]

5. ANY|21150 GREEN|21163 ALIGNED|21157 SIGNETS|49990: Your ramp is lands. Not weak artifacts. /story

Some of us play in metas where MLD exists, or we worry about Stranglehold. Plus, signets do have an odd synergy with Mana Reflection. Also, I might be playing Winter Orb; land ramp is kinda useless there.

I'll say any card draw that gives an opponent a choice, e.g. Rhystic Study, Browbeat. All Browbeat effects default to bad. And Rhystic Study is great, if you're using things like Winter Orb to make those taxes add up. Literally the only way to use Browbeat effects to your advantage is to make them repeatable and start adding up.

I honestly want to say Necropotence. It's great in nearly all black decks, but if you're playing reanimator, you want to be able to discard cards. And if you're playing three or more colors, it's time to be a bit conservative with your number of triple-colored cards. So, it's more like its downsides take it out of about 5% of decks it's in.

Seedborn Muse is a bit overplayed too. I use her mostly in decks featuring Winter Orb, and decks featuring a mana sink which is somehow crucial to my strategy, but also in decks with a lot of instants/permanents with flash/things to give things flash. She's really good, but I have to say, she's kinda wasted in 90% of the decks I see her in.

Overrun also fits on this list. In general, Overwhelming Stampede is nicer on your mana, and if you have at least one creature with power 3 or greater, the P/T boost will be at least as good as Overrun.

[lyonhaert]

I honestly want to say Necropotence. It's great in nearly all black decks, but if you're playing reanimator, you want to be able to discard cards. And if you're playing three or more colors, it's time to be a bit conservative with your number of triple-colored cards. So, it's more like its downsides take it out of about 5% of decks it's in.

Gotta say I rather agree. Often feels to me like a one-card combo, too. The old art is so cool, though.

[Sinis]

I will say that I have seriously come around on azorius chancery et al as budget lands.

I'm not sure I agree. I mean, I like them, because it's kind of like have a second land in your hand, or you can overdraw and put a creature in the yard to reanimate.

I feel like they might be better for the colours that don't have much draw, because this basically lets them hit two land drops with one card (ok, so just Boros Garrison). Alternatively, if you have an excessive number of land plays (because you're running Exploration, Burgeoning, Summer Bloom and Mina and Denn, Wildborn), you can probably just power through it.

I will say this though; sometimes they get caught up in collateral damage. Something like Casualties of War where it's the "best" land on the battlefield (because several of the other four types needed answering), and there's little enough reason not to just pooch that land. Maybe a month ago, I was playing some 1v1 while waiting for the rest of the group, and my opponent had just played Azorius Chancery on his turn 3, after I Cultivated. I played Primal Command on turn 4 to find a threat and put the Azorius Chancery on top of his library (not gaining 7 life or shuffling non-existent 'yards). Needless to say, this was a blown out, not only because it came into play tapped and he couldn't apply permission, but because he basically lost two land drops and a draw.

But, the vast majority of the time, they're probably okay if you play like, three of them, tops.

[bobthefunny]

I will say this though; sometimes they get caught up in collateral damage. Something like Casualties of War where it's the "best" land on the battlefield (because several of the other four types needed answering),

I'm going to have to disagree with you Sinis. I'm not going to claim that bounce-lands are the end-all since sliced bread, but I will defend that their upsides greatly outweigh their potential negatives in multiplayer games.

If we're past late game, you're not going to tell me that you've missed 0 land drops this game. As soon as you've played that land that's in your hand that you bounced - you've lost nothing more than if it was a regular land. I'm also skeptical that there's truly no better target than a Rav Bounce. I think people over-value targeting it since it taps for 2, and "removes two land drops" (which, again, only matters if you would otherwise have never missed a land drop since then). Because it's not a 2 for 1. Oftentimes it's not even a 2 land drop for 1, because they've already recovered that land drop, and would have wasted it otherwise. Tapping for 2 is a 'decent' reason, but you might want to check first if there's someone who has a better land position, has a color that needs to be turned off, has an untapped source of white or blue you might want to turn off for this round, or a hundred other things. There are times that I would even consider hitting a basic land a better choice (are they playing white or red? Might want to prevent that Emeria/Valakut. Do they have 2 lands? make the tango lands enter tapped. etc.).

Like, imagine comparing it to a swamp instead. In case one, with the bounceland, you play a bunch of lands, say 5, then the bounce land, then play your returned land again. In the exact same situation, drawing exactly the same number of lands, you would have played your 6 lands, then missed a land drop. - So when they hit your swamp (chosen randomly since nothing better), or that bounce land, in both situations you went down to your 5 other lands. Exactly the same end position.

Sure, maybe this hits earlier in the game, and you haven't played that land back down yet, and you eat a tempo loss - that tempo isn't as huge a deal in casual multiplayer, and you still have that land in hand anyways. This is decidedly a disadvantage in Commander - but the person who destroyed your land is also eating a tempo loss, as well as using a removal of some sort that would be better served against a real threat later. Doubly so if this is a Strip Mine or variant, since they set themselves back a land drop as well - and you still have that land in hand, so you will eventually catch up on that turn where you would otherwise have missed a land drop.

Sorry - I really feel that the arguments made against these lands are in part fallacious. They certainly do have their downsides, but the very real upsides are actually quite impressive, and far outweigh the downsides, especially since the benefits are compounded in longer casual Commander games, while the downsides are heavily mitigated as the games go longer, and there are more players.

And this doesn't even touch on resetting things like bojuka bog, or heaven forbid the new Mystic Sanctuary. There's also very few cards that hit lands as 'collateral'.

I was playing some 1v1 while waiting for the rest of the group, and my opponent had just played Azorius Chancery on his turn 3, after I Cultivated. I played Primal Command on turn 4
...
Needless to say, this was a blown out, not only because it came into play tapped and he couldn't apply permission, but because he basically lost two land drops and a draw.

Would this have really been that much different if it had been a normal land? Hitting land and a draw in a 1v1 is pretty big. Sure it sucks that it was a bounce land, but again - 1v1.

[Sinis]

I will defend that their upsides greatly outweigh their potential negatives in multiplayer games.

I definitely also believe this. But, the games where they do badly because you draw them early. I feel like they're one of the last lands you ever want to drop, unless your decks don't spend much mana developing a board in the early game.

I generally shy away from them because they're not in the universe of lands I would play, except maybe in Boros, or if I had a weird landfall game where I wanted unlimited landfalls and could just have the land bounce itself.

[umtiger]

Haven't they reprinted certain rare duals enough that Bounce lands aren't really a good option at budget anymore?

There are so many variations of ETB tapped rare lands available.

I see the bounce lands a lot. Sure, they are pretty decent in pre-cons (especially since they're from OG Ravnica and would otherwise be obscure). But they are certainly overused even in pre-cons just like the gain-lands. You all who are describing the up-sides on a Karoo ETB'ing to reset something like a Bojuka Bog are kinda MTG Christmas Land'ing it. Playing two ETB tapped lands back to back is not cool.

[Cow31337Killer]

Just play monocolor and run all basics

[Sinis]

Just play monocolor and run all basics

I don't disagree, but even my monocolour decks have around 15 utility lands in them. Why play 40 mountains, when you can play 39 mountains and a Valakut? That, but like, 15 times.

[Cow31337Killer]

Just play monocolor and run all basics

I don't disagree, but even my monocolour decks have around 15 utility lands in them. Why play 40 mountains, when you can play 39 mountains and a Valakut? That, but like, 15 times.

Because if you run all basics you can play Ruination|CMD and watch everyone playing 5 color decks at the table cry 😂

[toctheyounger]

Just play monocolor and run all basics

I don't disagree, but even my monocolour decks have around 15 utility lands in them. Why play 40 mountains, when you can play 39 mountains and a Valakut? That, but like, 15 times.

Because if you run all basics you can play Ruination|CMD and watch everyone playing 5 color decks at the table cry 😂

My mono decks are the same, there's just no reason not to get some utility from your land base in a lot of cases. Nonetheless, the point is still there - Wave of Vitriol wrecks face in a huge way in my mono green. 5c players just pack it in once that resolves.

[Sinis]

Because if you run all basics you can play Ruination and watch everyone playing 5 color decks at the table cry

You're the reason I play Wake of Destruction, sometimes.

All basics is not necessarily an advantage.

[darrenhabib]

On the topic of the double mana bounce lands, for years I NEVER played tapped lands. And even to this day a tapped land has to do something really special for my deck to warrant their inclusion.
But my foray into Commander was always heavily focused on "draw and mana", so hitting land drops was never a problem. That's why I just couldn't fathom why these bounce lands were so popular.
However as I expanded my horizons more on deck themes, it's not always possible to have a lot of draw in your decks. And this is where the bounce lands do become better. Bouncing that land means that you have a land drop for the following turn, and that way you do get a two-for-one land increase out of these lands.
So I've warmed up to them more. However just like everything else in this thread, players still just jam cards without really thinking about if they are actually good for the deck or not.
Ask yourself the question, "does my deck draw a lot of cards?" If it does then you're probably not going to get much value out of the bounce lands, as you'll have land drops anyway. The other question is "do you have ways to untap lands to get value?". Anything like Peregrine Drake, Candelabra of Tawnos, etc. This way you can get real value.
I play the bounce lands in my Zacama, Primal Calamity and Will & Rowan Kenrith decks because I have cards that untap lands for additional value (well infinites as well actually).

One of the most common plays I see is a second turn bounce land without casting a spell and then having to discard a card due to hand size. Oh I know you've all seen this. This is actually a resource down, so players please try and avoid this if you can, it is actually a mistake, unless it's on purpose for reanimation/dredge. But if you have no other options, then it's a lesson that there is a further downside to the bounce lands.

[Cow31337Killer]

Just play monocolor and run all basics

I don't disagree, but even my monocolour decks have around 15 utility lands in them. Why play 40 mountains, when you can play 39 mountains and a Valakut? That, but like, 15 times.

Because if you run all basics you can play Ruination and watch everyone playing 5 color decks at the table cry😂

You're the reason I play Wake of Destruction, sometimes.

All basics is not necessarily an advantage.

I mean I wasn't really being serious but cool for you I guess?

[bobthefunny]

I definitely also believe this. But, the games where they do badly because you draw them early. I feel like they're one of the last lands you ever want to drop, unless your decks don't spend much mana developing a board in the early game.

I generally shy away from them because they're not in the universe of lands I would play, except maybe in Boros, or if I had a weird landfall game where I wanted unlimited landfalls and could just have the land bounce itself.

Ah, I misunderstood your argument then. I apologize.

I tend to like them for budget decks, especially in multiplayer, where you can make use of the extra land drop, or discard fodder, resetting lands, if you're running cycling lands, etc.

There's usually a turn or two where the mana doesn't work quite right that you can sneak in an ETB tapped land anyways.

Haven't they reprinted certain rare duals enough that Bounce lands aren't really a good option at budget anymore?

There are so many variations of ETB tapped rare lands available.

I see the bounce lands a lot. Sure, they are pretty decent in pre-cons (especially since they're from OG Ravnica and would otherwise be obscure). But they are certainly overused even in pre-cons just like the gain-lands. You all who are describing the up-sides on a Karoo ETB'ing to reset something like a Bojuka Bog are kinda MTG Christmas Land'ing it. Playing two ETB tapped lands back to back is not cool.

Paying 1 mana to nuke a graveyard can sometimes be a great play on a turn.

And you won't be tapping out every turn either. Even in regular games, there's plenty of turns where there's a wasted mana and you can easily slide an ETBT land every here and there.

I also doubt you'll be using them back to back either, unless it's really desperate. You'll just slot in the bounce land on a convenient turn, then your land is available in hand for use when needed.

I actually liked the bounce land in the BR Commander deck this year, because it gave me a free discard land, while still advancing my mana. It was a fine include for the deck, just like I'm happy the Drownyard Temple was included for the same reason.

Because if you run all basics you can play Ruination|CMD and watch everyone playing 5 color decks at the table cry 😂

I ran a full basic 3 color deck (heavier on the green) with a lot of non-basic land hate, and while that worked... I'd say you'd be better off running High basic land count, but not to be afraid if you lose some non-basics to your own hate - especially if it's Blood Moon variants - you're still getting more value off of it. It's fine. You don't need to try so hard to make it so far non-symmetrical. You're better off getting some value out of nonbasics that are worth it.

[Sinis]

Just play monocolor and run all basics

I don't disagree, but even my monocolour decks have around 15 utility lands in them. Why play 40 mountains, when you can play 39 mountains and a Valakut? That, but like, 15 times.

Because if you run all basics you can play Ruination and watch everyone playing 5 color decks at the table cry😂

You're the reason I play Wake of Destruction, sometimes.

All basics is not necessarily an advantage.

I mean I wasn't really being serious but cool for you I guess?

Oh I'm serious. Dead serious.

[Cow31337Killer]

Oh I'm serious. Dead serious.

[NZB2323]

(This thread is basically a reverse of the other thread I posted on here a while back)

What are some cards you are tired of seeing in EDH? I'm talking about the cards that hit the table and just make you roll your eyes out of sheer instinct. Maybe it's a card you think is overrated and never really lives up to its own hype. Maybe it's a great card that's been stripped of all it's "coolness" factor because everyone and their mother seems to be running it. Or maybe it's a card that just personally enrages you to your core for a reason you can't quite put into words. Either way, this is a thread to talk about those cards!

I'll start with one that might ruffle a few feathers: Cyclonic Rift|RTR

I despise this card. If I had a lighter and enough time I would burn every printing of this card in existence and throw the remains into the trash where they belong. I'm not here to argue whether or not this card is banworthy, cause that's not the point of this thread. I'm just sick of having to sit down against a blue deck knowing that at some point in the game there will be at least one (if I'm lucky) Cyclonic Rift|RTR cast and there isn't a damn thing I can do about it. As a green player it infuriates me to no end. Maybe if wizards printed more ways to effectively combat mass bounce OUTSIDE of blue it wouldn't be so bad. But for now, this card can go straight to hell as far as I'm concerned.

I can understand hating Cyclonic Rift, but there are a lot of ways you can interact with Cyclonic Rift outside of blue:

• Pyroblast
• Red Elemental Blast
• Burnout
• Guttural Response
• Gaddock Teeg
• Sanctum Prelate
• Teferi's Protection
• Ruric Thar, the unbowed
• Purphoros, God of the Forge
• Malakir Bloodwitch
• Kozilek, the Great Distortion
• Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
• Emrakul, the promised end

Cyclonic Rift (68k) - Yes, it is asymmetrical and instant speed. But unless you fire it up before your turn to win it is a major feel bad and can potentially backfire badly. A well played Austere Command or Tragic Arrogance is usually more terrifying and less annoying.
Gilded Lotus (40k) - What's your typical gameplan if waiting for/ramping to 5 mana just to jump to 8 mana is a good play!?
Acidic Slime (23k) - 5 mana is too much for this effect and i've heard enough "but it's 2 for 1" chants with the Slime dying as a collateral, before taking anything out, soon afterwards.
Merciless Eviction (22k) - One of the greatest things about playing is the enormous recursion potential. Running this stifles that. And yes, it takes out PWs, but just how many Superfriend decks can one face to make this relevant?
Caged Sun (22k) - Too much mana to only boost lands. Seen enough rounds where people virtually time walked themselves just to have this destroyed before their next turn.
Avenger of Zendikar (22k) - I've seen way too many fair hard casts of this thing that weren't even followed up by a landrop or more, to feel like it's worth its investment.

I'm going to have to disagree with these. Cyclonic Rift can also be cast for 2 mana when you need it on turn 2, although it doesn't win you the game it's still a great defensive card for blue decks.

Gilded Lotus I like in my Niv-Mizzet, Parun deck. It helps with his mana cost, and after I cast it it can be used to cast a counter spell. It's also nice in Orzhov decks, like my Tymna the weaver/Ravos, soultender that struggle with ramp. Not the most competitive card, but a solid option.

Acidic Slime is great in decks that have ways to abuse it's ETB ability, like Roon of the Hidden Realm or Chulane, Teller of Tales that can play Panharmonicon, Restoration Angel, and Deadeye Navigator but I don't play it in Captain Sisay or Edric, Spymaster of Trest.

Merciless Eviction is extremely versatile. It's not only great against super friends decks, but also enchantment decks like Zur the enchanter, Estrid, the masked, Tuvasa the sunlit, Uril, the miststalker, artifact decks like Karn, Silver Golem, Brudiclad, telchor engineer, Saheeli, the gifted, and all decks that are heavy on creatures. The other thing is that it's nice if you are facing another Orzhov player, like Teysa Karlov it can get around the death triggers. Exile also gets around indestructibles like Purphoros, God of the Forge, Avacyn, Angel of Hope, and Ulamog, the ceaseless hunger. With black having so many tutors, having the ability to search for this card is great.

Caged Sun is one of the few cards that helps mono colored decks, and they have less cards to chose from.

Avenger of Zendikar wins games with Craterhoof Behemoth off of Tooth and Nail.

[darrenhabib]

I can understand hating Cyclonic Rift, but there are a lot of ways you can interact with Cyclonic Rift outside of blue:

• Pyroblast
• Red Elemental Blast
• Burnout
• Guttural Response
• Gaddock Teeg
• Sanctum Prelate
• Teferi's Protection
• Ruric Thar, the unbowed
• Purphoros, God of the Forge
• Malakir Bloodwitch
• Kozilek, the Great Distortion
• Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
• Emrakul, the promised end

Gaddock Teeg unfortunately doesn't prevent a player from casting Cyclonic Rift for it's overloaded cost.

Too be honest I'm super confused by a lot of your selection. Ruric Thar, the unbowed, Purphoros, God of the Forge, Malakir Bloodwitch, Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger, Emrakul, the promised end, all require huge amounts of mana and the tempo swing is usually punishing because you are filling your hand with permanents that you don't have enough mana to all deploy again. If the only card you cast is a Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger for example often you are discarding tons of other cards. Sure you exile two permanents, but you are so far behind what the Rift player is capable of that stage.

I feel like your list just further highlights that there is very true few ways to interact with this spell outside of countering it altogether.

Cards that I would like to mention that are good against Cyclonic Rift are Ghostway and Eerie Interlude.

[Sinis]

Cards that I would like to mention that are good against Cyclonic Rift are Ghostway and Eerie Interlude.

Teferi's Protection, too. Seedtime is also okay.

[hyalopterouslemur]

Gotta say I rather agree. Often feels to me like a one-card combo, too. The old art is so cool, though.

It's not that per se. It's that people don't consider the downsides. Obviously bbb isn't going to matter in a monoblack deck, and if you're not playing something like Reanimator (or if opp has a lot of gravehate) the other downside won't matter so much, but basically I can't see why run Necro if it sabotages your whole strategy.

[lyonhaert]

Gotta say I rather agree. Often feels to me like a one-card combo, too. The old art is so cool, though.

It's not that per se. It's that people don't consider the downsides. Obviously bbb isn't going to matter in a monoblack deck, and if you're not playing something like Reanimator (or if opp has a lot of gravehate) the other downside won't matter so much, but basically I can't see why run Necro if it sabotages your whole strategy.

Yeah, there's a lot of reanimator decks that are not instant-speed that can't get around that trigger and it's just a non-bo there. In Chainer it becomes a tricky obstacle, sure, but not absolute sabotage. But I also used to run Claws of Gix and/or Infernal Tribute as an escape hatch out of the liability of that exile trigger.

[tempoEDH]

I feel as though everyone is thinking this, but nobody is saying it because they know everyone else is thinking it, so I'll just say it:
Sol Ring
Quite literally in every commander deck I've ever played against (barring one Yuriko deck), and for good reason! It's quite good.
But I've seen far too many commander games getting decided by who drops their turn 1 Ring and who doesn't. The ultimate overused card.
I feel like kind of a hypocrite here, though, as I also play ring in all my decks.

[toctheyounger]

We all play it where we can. Yes, it's ubiquitous. The amount of games that I've seen that negate the 'T1 Sol wins games' premise is still far higher than the amount of games I've seen in which T1 Sol wins though. I personally think that argument is flawed, particularly because the nature of any 'evidence' to support the argument is, due to the nature of this format, anecdotal at best. It's not the card itself, it's the early tempo swing, and with the right hand there's a lot of other cards that give you a similar impact. As reliably? Maybe not. But it's still possible nonetheless. I don't necessarily care either way, it's just not the hill I want to die on.

I don't necessarily think it's a 'must run' either. I don't run it in Nissa, it's be a waste of time at any stage of the game.

Having said this, I'm ambivalent to the scenario around the card. If it were banned I wouldn't shed a tear. I'd just be in a predicament regarding what the hell I do with 15 banned precon Sol's. As would we all I'm sure.