Doomskar Vs Wrath of God (Or a discussion of White Wraths)

[LightningHelix]

What do people think of the new toy that is Out of Time? For all intents and purposes, this is a wrath. Is it good enough in say an enchantress deck that get triggers off of it and can recur it?

[Hawk]

I haven't had a chance to actually play with it yet, but Out of Time seems incredible to me for one simple reason - it can lock Commanders out, possibly for a very very long time if they don't have an answer (or if you have an answer to their answer). I don't know if it's a full-blown autoplay; I suspect it's at its best in enchantress or flicker decks that can break the symmetry or repeat it for value, decks with non-creature Commanders that de facto break the symmetry, or hard control decks (like Pheldagriff, where I can't wait to try it) where it is just a 3-mana time stop that will keep annoying commanders away for a spell too.

[Dunharrow]

I love this forum because I never would have considered Wrath of God to be anything other than an all-star card. I was going to pipe in that I would put Doomskar a bit lower than WoG, unless you have synergies with foretelling - like you play a lot of wheels or Mindslicer or something.

I would not consider doomskar to be a mana discount because you really want to be doing something on turn 2. Play a mana rock and you still get the turn 3 wrath, but now you have extra mana.

I have always played 3-4 white wraths in decks that wanted them. WoG and Austere Command are probably the ones I have played the most. I never liked Rout or Fated Retribution. I would play Day of Judgment before I would play them. But again, my deck that ran the most wraths was always Karador, Ghost Chieftain and leaving up 7 mana to wrath is pretty inefficient in that deck... it's not like it has much going on at instant speed.

I do like the other recommendations though... I guess I just feel like Rout and Fated Retribution are better than WoG when you play a lot at instant speed.
Winds of Abandon is a great card but I haven't had a chance to play with it yet.

And Hour of Revelation is amazing.

[Mookie]

What do people think of the new toy that is Out of Time? For all intents and purposes, this is a wrath. Is it good enough in say an enchantress deck that get triggers off of it and can recur it?

It definitely seems worth testing. Phasing things out is pretty strong, and six or more turns is usually going to be until the end of the game. It can definitely backfire compared to a normal board wipe though - it's very soft to instant-speed enchantment removal. If you have ways to protect or recur enchantments, it goes up in value. Also somewhat interesting if you have a way to blink it (ex: Estrid's Invocation).

[LightningHelix]

Something interesting I just read. Out of Time can permanently remove creatures and even commanders in combination with Opalescence or Starfield of Nyx since phasing dosen't move commanders to another zone and Out of time phases itself out and therefore can no longer be interacted with.

Seems evil, buts a thing you could do. Probably not worth it with Starfield since you would nuke 4 non-aura permanents on your side.

[LightningHelix]

I love this forum because I never would have considered Wrath of God to be anything other than an all-star card. I was going to pipe in that I would put Doomskar a bit lower than WoG, unless you have synergies with foretelling - like you play a lot of wheels or Mindslicer or something.

I would not consider doomskar to be a mana discount because you really want to be doing something on turn 2. Play a mana rock and you still get the turn 3 wrath, but now you have extra mana.

I have always played 3-4 white wraths in decks that wanted them. WoG and Austere Command are probably the ones I have played the most. I never liked Rout or Fated Retribution. I would play Day of Judgment before I would play them. But again, my deck that ran the most wraths was always Karador, Ghost Chieftain and leaving up 7 mana to wrath is pretty inefficient in that deck... it's not like it has much going on at instant speed.

I do like the other recommendations though... I guess I just feel like Rout and Fated Retribution are better than WoG when you play a lot at instant speed.
Winds of Abandon is a great card but I haven't had a chance to play with it yet.

And Hour of Revelation is amazing.

In defense of Rout and Fated Retribution, I've changed my mind about them and like them for the same reason I will always play instant speed removal over sorcery speed removal.

1) You can interact with creature based combos on an opponents turn.
2) You can wait and see what your opponents do and respond accordingly. An opponent might just try to run over another opponent instead of you, in such a case he's doing the work of killing your opponents for you, this matters even more when its a lethal attack. If you have a sorcery speed removal, you have no choice but to sweep the board and not give that player the chance to kill one of your opponents.
3) Sweeping the board at the end of the turn before yours lets you untap and play your threats first.
4) Holding until the end of the previous player's turn will generally get you an extra round of creatures to kill, making your 8 for 1 possibly a 12 for 1 or something.

[ISBPathfinder]

Nowhere in Pokken's description did they talk about it like a weird evasion finisher? Especially when they're explicitly using it more than once? I think you're vastly overestimating the drawback of ramp. Most multicolored decks have a limited number of basics to fetch in the first place, and pretty much all decks start to experience diminishing returns on ramp at a certain point, especially when it comes at the cost of a significant number of cards.

I don't know what everyone else's meta look like. I on average keep 12-15 basics in most of my decks even with access to ABU duels. Also I have no idea what you are saying about ramping opponents being overestimated. My meta is also full of people who jam a ton of draw and tokens though so its possible that its like, especially bad for me but I would say that assuming opponents don't have basics is probably a meta call at best which I wouldn't assume to be true unless it is for you.

Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of 4+ color decks with few to no basics and if you play against those then it might be fine. I have played with and against plenty of 3 color decks with still running 10-15 basics though. I myself often play 1-2 color decks where I play 15-20 basics still.

I think that assuming that a card with a big downside won't be that big of a deal because of opponents being greedy is a big assumption to make.

[Wallycaine]

Nowhere in Pokken's description did they talk about it like a weird evasion finisher? Especially when they're explicitly using it more than once? I think you're vastly overestimating the drawback of ramp. Most multicolored decks have a limited number of basics to fetch in the first place, and pretty much all decks start to experience diminishing returns on ramp at a certain point, especially when it comes at the cost of a significant number of cards.

I don't know what everyone else's meta look like. I on average keep 12-15 basics in most of my decks even with access to ABU duels. Also I have no idea what you are saying about ramping opponents being overestimated. My meta is also full of people who jam a ton of draw and tokens though so its possible that its like, especially bad for me but I would say that assuming opponents don't have basics is probably a meta call at best which I wouldn't assume to be true unless it is for you.

Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of 4+ color decks with few to no basics and if you play against those then it might be fine. I have played with and against plenty of 3 color decks with still running 10-15 basics though. I myself often play 1-2 color decks where I play 15-20 basics still.

I think that assuming that a card with a big downside won't be that big of a deal because of opponents being greedy is a big assumption to make.

I'm saying that you're overestimating how much of a problem giving an opponent some extra lands is when you're wiping their entire board asymmetrically. It's not based entirely on lack of basics, that's simply an additional element that can tip the balance even more lopsidedly in favor of the Winds player.

The point is that removing every other creature on the battlefield and giving the opponent some lands as a consolation prize is inherently a good trade. Outside of extreme examples where someone has completely exploded with tokens, you're still typically going up 2-3 cards on *each* opponent, as a land is inherently less useful than a creature. If you don't consider that the case, I'd invite you to run Perilous Forays more frequently, as it lets you trade your creatures for lands even more selectively than Winds. And yet it only shows up in 1% of decks, because the vast majority would consider that a trade that's not worth investing a card in.

[illakunsaa]

One of my favorite thing to do with Winds of Abandon is to cast Armageddon afterwards.

I also like to loop Fall of the Thran with Emeria Shepherd.

[Ruiner]

Another wipe I'm a fan of, and I know this may be getting into "pet card" territory, is Angel of the Dire Hour. Obviously it doesn't hurt non-aggro strategies much, but it can be a pretty crippling card at the right time.

Sunblast Angel is another fun one. It may not be always optimal but I run it in my Bruna, the Fading Light deck and potentially getting multiple uses out of it has been a factor at times.

[LightningHelix]

Another wipe I'm a fan of, and I know this may be getting into "pet card" territory, is Angel of the Dire Hour. Obviously it doesn't hurt non-aggro strategies much, but it can be a pretty crippling card at the right time.

Sunblast Angel is another fun one. It may not be always optimal but I run it in my Bruna, the Fading Light deck and potentially getting multiple uses out of it has been a factor at times.

I think those are stellar in blink decks, although it might scare people from attacking each other

[LightningHelix]

Nowhere in Pokken's description did they talk about it like a weird evasion finisher? Especially when they're explicitly using it more than once? I think you're vastly overestimating the drawback of ramp. Most multicolored decks have a limited number of basics to fetch in the first place, and pretty much all decks start to experience diminishing returns on ramp at a certain point, especially when it comes at the cost of a significant number of cards.

I don't know what everyone else's meta look like. I on average keep 12-15 basics in most of my decks even with access to ABU duels. Also I have no idea what you are saying about ramping opponents being overestimated. My meta is also full of people who jam a ton of draw and tokens though so its possible that its like, especially bad for me but I would say that assuming opponents don't have basics is probably a meta call at best which I wouldn't assume to be true unless it is for you.

Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of 4+ color decks with few to no basics and if you play against those then it might be fine. I have played with and against plenty of 3 color decks with still running 10-15 basics though. I myself often play 1-2 color decks where I play 15-20 basics still.

I think that assuming that a card with a big downside won't be that big of a deal because of opponents being greedy is a big assumption to make.

I'm saying that you're overestimating how much of a problem giving an opponent some extra lands is when you're wiping their entire board asymmetrically. It's not based entirely on lack of basics, that's simply an additional element that can tip the balance even more lopsidedly in favor of the Winds player.

The point is that removing every other creature on the battlefield and giving the opponent some lands as a consolation prize is inherently a good trade. Outside of extreme examples where someone has completely exploded with tokens, you're still typically going up 2-3 cards on *each* opponent, as a land is inherently less useful than a creature. If you don't consider that the case, I'd invite you to run Perilous Forays more frequently, as it lets you trade your creatures for lands even more selectively than Winds. And yet it only shows up in 1% of decks, because the vast majority would consider that a trade that's not worth investing a card in.

I think using Perilous Forays as a card is kind of a poor argument against Winds though, since Winds dosen't take up a slot in your deck, Perilous is five mana to cast, with an additional activation each time, where as getting ramped by Winds of Abandon is free for you and you opponent even spent six mana on it. If I could get a free effect like that in my deck I'd be on that all day. Perilous Forays isn't a bad effect its just way overcosted for what it does.

I'm liking Path to Exile less and less these days because it ramps my opponent and would rather give them a 3/3 as in Pongify or Rapid Hybridization as a 3/3 will almost never matter, but ramp can enable more powerful cards. (I still play path, I would just prefer other cards, sometimes pathing a random 1/1 gives you the ramp you need.)

[Ruiner]

Another wipe I'm a fan of, and I know this may be getting into "pet card" territory, is Angel of the Dire Hour. Obviously it doesn't hurt non-aggro strategies much, but it can be a pretty crippling card at the right time.

Sunblast Angel is another fun one. It may not be always optimal but I run it in my Bruna, the Fading Light deck and potentially getting multiple uses out of it has been a factor at times.

I think those are stellar in blink decks, although it might scare people from attacking each other

Gotta be careful, Dire Hour is a cast from hand trigger so blink doesn't work. Totally works with Sunblast Angel though.

[LightningHelix]

Another wipe I'm a fan of, and I know this may be getting into "pet card" territory, is Angel of the Dire Hour. Obviously it doesn't hurt non-aggro strategies much, but it can be a pretty crippling card at the right time.

Sunblast Angel is another fun one. It may not be always optimal but I run it in my Bruna, the Fading Light deck and potentially getting multiple uses out of it has been a factor at times.

I think those are stellar in blink decks, although it might scare people from attacking each other

Gotta be careful, Dire Hour is a cast from hand trigger so blink doesn't work. Totally works with Sunblast Angel though.

Aie! you're right, I guess I'd give a slight nod to Sunblast Angel for that.

[hyalopterouslemur]

I'd add Sunblast Angel as a situational. Most of the time, it's used fairly, but if you drop a Meekstone or Juntu Stakes, if you have a Seedborn Muse, etc.

Doomskar is okay, but there are so many other wraths out there. It's just...okay.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

I actually like Wrath of God a lot. It's a classic with a few great arts attached to it. I play it in every WX deck I've got tbh. Is it the best sweeper? No, frankly it is not. Is it my favorite? No, Damnation is more fun to say.

But in a format where optimization is secondary to personal preference, I tend not to care enough to shed my WoGs. I'll gladly take a hit to my win% if it means I can play cards I like, rather than cards that are "better".

Just my 2 cents. Style > function every time.

[umtiger]

I still play Wrath. If you asked me why, I'd say it's just for the art and the nostalgia. That's enough for me. It's ok to just play what you want. And for a flavor play, it's not like it's drastically underpowered

Honestly, I kinda want to play Doomskar too. I play a traditional control u/w deck and it's nice to have the opportunity to wrath and then still play something else on the same turn later in the game. I cannot count on having 10+ lands in play.

[LightningHelix]

Super Powerful sweeper for aristocrat type decks that I forgot to mention is False Prophet, since the abundance of free sac outlets can make this an instant speed exiling effect.

[PrimevalCommander]

I don't like Rout much at all. I have tried it in several decks and the 7 to hold up for instant speed didn't sit well with me. Maybe once or twice in 100 games did I cast it at Instant speed, and the 5% or less additional utility could be better served by something that is either cheaper, or more flexible.

Hallowed Burial I still like quite a bit as more indestructible things get printed every year. Also slows down opposing graveyard synergy where I just sacrifice my own stuff anyway.

+1 to False Prophet if your are packing sac outlets. Any recursion with a sac outlet can make this a soft lock.

There are a couple other options that I need to try out. Unfortunately I am only playing 1 deck with white and it also has Black and Green, so sweeper slots are very tight. Slaughter the Strong does look like one of the better "power matters" sweepers where you can ensure you get your commander or both if you play smaller partners. The influx of partners make your opponents more likely to play them too.

Tragic Arrogance would be my #2 or #3 outside white/black. I have seen it do very good work. If your opponent has a sac outlet, I expect they could keep their best creature by sacing all but one in response, or does that not work?